Training issue

[Niko182]

Just now, MIm20c said:

Maybe before the engine was installed

Thats what the ad said at least. it stated it had a 2225LB empty weight.

[MikeOH]

3 minutes ago, 201Steve said:

I can’t figure out why there are so many Mooney drivers that act like a Mooney is an SR-71. “Make sure he’s an expert in Mooney instruction” “if he’s not a Mooney master, you’ll probably die” “Ensure that his soul has been christened by Al Mooney”.  

Ok, relax... I’m just being dramatic. I’m way less experienced than most people and I accept my position in the dish pit.  I equally love the passion, but I am finding it very over the top that so many people are consistently making a persons situation more difficult by insinuating these scenarios that somehow an instructor in Idaho who also happens to train tail wheel is too far removed from the ability to fly a Mooney. It’s an airplane. It has its own characteristics. They all do. I would hope that any CFI would know that. If he didn’t, god help us. A well rounded instructor that has flown various aircraft Should not be type limited because they don’t have 2,000 hours in a Mooney. 

I say this from experience. I felt like people were making me think if the instructor didn’t have a Mooney tattoo on their forearm, I was doomed. I ended up doing my complex endorsement when I got my J with a CFI that had about 2 hours of Mooney time because there was no Mooney god available to me within reason. We went up in the airplane, learned it’s habits, and whaddya know, we were able to fly the airplane! I was shocked based on what I’d read. ****It would have been nice to use someone with a Mooney tattoo, and I actually look forward to the opportunity, but it’s a process of fine tuning...which is true of anything you fly. I’ve also done a lot of homework on my own. Asked questions, sought out other owners.... but for crying out loud, it’s a complex airplane not a skunk works developed rocket ship. 

I’ll probably draw eyebrows from this, just know that I respect you, this is just my position. 

I didn't know any better when I first started flying a Mooney. The FBO I was renting Cherokees from had a M20B and I thought it'd be cool to fly (It was!!).  Went up with one of their CFIs (half my age and had tats, but none that said MOONEY!) and somehow survived 10 hours before I could rent solo.  Flew a lot of hours in that plane before I got my M20F.  Got a good rate on insurance because of the M20B time. Insurance was fine with the 'B' time to insure my 'F' (which says something about how they viewed the risk).  Read the POH, picked up the plane from the pre-buy shop and flew it home.

[jonhop]

I'm in the by and fly the Mooney now camp but considering your price point, if you have doubts, you can buy an old 152 and finish your PPL while you shop and acquire your Mooney. Then you could lease the 152 to your local flying club where it could / should pay for itself. Just my 2¢.

[Yetti]

you can't fly your 401K.  Buy the mooney.   Get good instruction.

[Davidv]

18 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

It has a 1143LBS useful load. As for the damage history, That's a lot of damage to a 20 year old plane.

You can say that again.  Maybe it’s just me but if someone saw the picture of what the plane looked liked right after the incident prior to substantially replacing the wing skins and spar they may run the other way pretty quickly...

[Niko182]

2 minutes ago, Davidv said:

You can say that again.  Maybe it’s just me but if someone saw the picture of what the plane looked liked right after the incident prior to substantially replacing the wing skins and spar they may run the other way pretty quickly...

whered you find the pictures of the damage?

[Davidv]

Sorry for the confusion, I don’t have pictures .  I was just making the point that with the extent of those repairs, the fire (I’m assuming) damage must have been pretty substantial.

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, 201Steve said:

I can’t figure out why there are so many Mooney drivers that act like a Mooney is an SR-71. “Make sure he’s an expert in Mooney instruction” “if he’s not a Mooney master, you’ll probably die” “Ensure that his soul has been christened by Al Mooney”.  

It goes along with, "only take your Mooney to an MSC.  They always do a great job and nobody else knows how to work on a Mooney."

[carusoam]

I like to weigh in... often...

1) we want Mooney specific instructors... so we don’t find out about stall characteristics and go around characteristics at the same time the CFI does...

2) It is better they learn them the day before... OK with me if they become a Mooney Master a day ahead or decades ahead...

3) The Best part of flying different planes is the variation of experience you get... I used a few different C152s... and some were slightly different... going to an M20C there were more differences... so you were learning more about flying... not just about flying a single plane...

4) Learning from an expert... I was challenged by steep turns... in a C152... as much as I read... I assumed it wasn’t me... it must have been the ancient, worn, doggy, C152...

5) demonstrating my lack of skill in the checkride... I got a lesson in C152 airplane flying... Hands-off steep turns... in both directions... no altitude loss, no hunting for speed... guy smoked a pair of pacs of cigs every day, and has an intersection on the IFR chart named after him in his honor... pay the extra... learn it once the right way for the right reasons... my young buck instructors were clearly letting me know... they were looking forward to their next job... it wasn’t instructing...

6) On flying a Long Body Mooney with tremendous power... right up there with handing a kid the keys to powerful cars... you want to know they are getting trained properly... you want to know they are building experience properly... when you have these bases covered... you can really look forward to flying Long Bodies...

7) Know That covering ground at three miles per minute... can lead you into TFRs awfully quickly... when climbing out at 2k’pm, that shelf over your head that is a class B airspace... will get you in the news... zipping through the traffic pattern becomes a real challenge... find the thread around here for that... don’t accidentally become the jerk...

8) Typical things new Pilots do... run out of gas and fly VFR into IMC... with a Long Body... you burn gas 1.5X the ordinary Mooney... and run into the wall of IMC only about 20% faster...

9) Whatever instructor you find... ask him how he wants to handle these issues... it will give you some insight about the instructor...

10) The coolest thing about having life experience... you can say... been there. and done that... with authority... because you have and did... 

There can always be times... when the plane fails... are you going to second guess your choice of training then?

My first engine problem was within my first 10 Mooney hours... my instructor handled it by the book... the government printed standardized book... 

I would have preferred the Mooney printed book right after that experience...(stuck valve, crammed into the piston top, bent the rod)

Go Mooney...

It can take time to acquire the right one...

Finish the PPL training...

Swapping horses mid race, has a known list of added challenges... it can be done. Just get that step out of the way...

Getting the license to learn is important... so get on with it, and then start the next learning program...

PP thoughts only...

About me... C152... PPL... M20C...IR... M20R... in that order... I would have loved to add a bunch more experiences, planes, and other things....

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

I bought my Mooney with a wet PPL, and trainee with an experienced CFII recommended / approved by my insurance company. Two months and one long VFR XC later (WV to NC and back), I flew 2 more hours to a MAPA PPP. I figured having just learned to fly, then learning to fly the Mooney, it was time to learn to fly the Mooney right.

The MAPA Safety Foundation has a great Pilot Proficiency Program. I heartily recommend it! The sooner the better, too. They cover flight, planning, IFR procedures, maintenance, upgrades, everything. I've been twice and left with my head overflowing both times. But a big notebook to help me remember later. 

[midlifeflyer]

9 hours ago, 201Steve said:

I can’t figure out why there are so many Mooney drivers that act like a Mooney is an SR-71. “Make sure he’s an expert in Mooney instruction” “if he’s not a Mooney master, you’ll probably die” “Ensure that his soul has been christened by Al Mooney”.  

Because everyone wants to feel special. 

Your post is spot on. Yes, there is justification for wanting some experience in the type, and there are instructors with very limited experience in multiple types who find transitions difficult for themselves, but beyond that the whole type-specific instructor thing trends to get overblown. The unstructured without experience tend to shy away  themselves,

 

[gsxrpilot]

I'm pretty sure any current, working, CFI could easily and successfully fly my Mooney. Even if he/she'd never flown a Mooney before. They wouldn't hurt or break my Mooney and I'm confident about that. 

But I've also flown with three different CFI's in my Mooney who didn't have any really Mooney experience. Two of them were full of bad information regarding the management of speed, the turbo, and other Mooney idiosyncrasies. And they also really struggled to demonstrate any of the commercial maneuvers in the Mooney. The third CFI made the commercial maneuvers look very easy and was spot on with all of them. But regarding the other stuff, he just deferred to me saying I would know the Mooney better than he would. 

I got my basic 5 hours dual transition training from a very experience, but not Mooney specific, CFI. It was good enough, sort of a "license to learn" situation. Then over the next many hours, I've learned to really fly my Mooney by experience, and advice from very experienced Mooney pilots, some of them CFI's. But this takes a long time.

I'm sure this whole process would be accelerated by flying with a Mooney specialist CFI. I've just passed 1000 hours of Mooney time, but could still benefit from quality instruction. And some day I hope to get the opportunity to fly with @mike_elliott, @donkaye, Brian Lloyd, @Parker_Woodruff, @kortopates. I have no doubt it would be time and money well spent. 

[PTK]

17 hours ago, Mufflerbearing said:

3) buy the Mooney I want right now and get my instruction in it now and get my ppl in it and then work on my IR. 

^^^^^ That would be my opinion. Don't let people scare you. Buy the Mooney now as opposed to something else and switching later.

[DonMuncy]

Both sides are right. Any CFI can teach you to fly. Some people have been known to teach themselves to fly without an instructor. But the better the instructor, and the more knowledgeable they are about that particular plane, the better the odds you have of learning the safest way. And the odds are that you will learn more in less time.  Same thing with maintenance. Most any A&P can get the Mooney manuals and work on your plane. But you increase the odds of getting the best maintenance from the guy who knows Mooneys best. And the better the odds he can do it in less time.

I like to stack the odds in my favor, when I can do it within economic reason.

[Hank]

I had a flight review in my little C with an available local instructor during my relocation to Alabama. On the first takeoff, he was looking goo-goo eyed out the window, and said "boy! Yiu sure can tell this isn't a Cessna!" He would not be high on my list of CFIs for transition training . . . .

 

[201Steve]

8 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'm pretty sure any current, working, CFI could easily and successfully fly my Mooney. Even if he/she'd never flown a Mooney before. They wouldn't hurt or break my Mooney and I'm confident about that. 

But I've also flown with three different CFI's in my Mooney who didn't have any really Mooney experience. Two of them were full of bad information regarding the management of speed, the turbo, and other Mooney idiosyncrasies. And they also really struggled to demonstrate any of the commercial maneuvers in the Mooney. The third CFI made the commercial maneuvers look very easy and was spot on with all of them. But regarding the other stuff, he just deferred to me saying I would know the Mooney better than he would. 

I got my basic 5 hours dual transition training from a very experience, but not Mooney specific, CFI. It was good enough, sort of a "license to learn" situation. Then over the next many hours, I've learned to really fly my Mooney by experience, and advice from very experienced Mooney pilots, some of them CFI's. But this takes a long time.

I'm sure this whole process would be accelerated by flying with a Mooney specialist CFI. I've just passed 1000 hours of Mooney time, but could still benefit from quality instruction. And some day I hope to get the opportunity to fly with @mike_elliott, @donkaye, Brian Lloyd, @Parker_Woodruff, @kortopates. I have no doubt it would be time and money well spent. 

For the record, I also, would love to fly with these guys. I also value expertise. Very much so. I disregard “expert testimony” from people all the time because it isn’t type specific expertise (not just aviation). I think the easiest way to say it is, a good instructor is a good instructor- and that includes their determination of whether they are capable of the job. How you make that determination early on is a little more challenging. Scoping them out, so to speak. 

@carusoam I agree mostly. My thinking is a little more broad, not necessarily specific to this one post. It would be challenging for sure to add the extra performance of one of the high performance (over 200hp) Mooney’s during primary training. What really bothers me are people discouraging less experienced pilots from Mooney. I don’t think it’s there intention to guard the airplane, and I’m sure it comes from a place of safety concern, but if you read some of the rhetoric, it can be depressing! I can say this from recent experience, that it had me wondering if I shouldn’t just stick to a skyhawk. Thank god I had some people in my corner telling me to work hard at learning and go for the Mooney, because I would be stuck in a slow suv if I didn’t! Lol  I absolutely love my J model and I’m glad I had people tell me It was OK. We are all terrified of screwing it up, I am for sure.  I have great respect for the airplane. It’s serious business, but it’s depressing seeing the discouragement. And honestly, it’s really not one person. It’s more of of the compounded information leads you to: this is going to kill me. I guess I’d just like to see a little more encouragement amongst our own. The media does just fine on its own making aviation seem like a death sentence.

As for MAINTENANCE, I’m still guilty of Mooney expert fever. I hired a guy to diagnose and repair an ignition issue in my Jeep CJ. A very good and knowledgeable general mechanic. I just didn’t have time to fool with it. He just ended up swapping out the distributor.  A couple weeks later, when I had more time, I took the distributor off playing with the timing, and realized the drive gear on the distributor he installed was a hardened steel gear. He’s a good general mechanic, but he had no idea that the gear on the Camshaft was iron and is cast into the cam itself. Hardened steel on soft iron trying to turn together, well you know what’ll happen. I changed the gears, but I only knew it was problematic bc I’m more knowledgeable about my 258 i6 than he is. A way better mechanic no doubt but he didn’t know. (As I type I feel like I’m making a case against myself on the instruction part ). 

Well, I enjoy the conversation. Let’s be encouraging. =)

 

[201er]

21 minutes ago, 201Steve said:

What really bothers me are people discouraging less experienced pilots from Mooney. I don’t think it’s there intention to guard the airplane, and I’m sure it comes from a place of safety concern, but if you read some of the rhetoric, it can be depressing!

After losing friends and fellow Mooney aviators we knew on here, making my own fair share of dangerous screw ups, reading the reports, and how many years of very active flying it took to genuinely get comfortable with a Mooney, I don’t take the plane or the need for specific training lightly.

[donkaye]

23 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

When did this become a thing and how does one become a Mooney Certified Instructor ?

I was going to ask the same question?

[donkaye]

I do think a specific airplane model instructor is important for initial and transition training.  Each type of airplane has its own special knowledge requirements.  You don't go to a general practitioner to get a heart transplant.  You want the best in the field, who has specialized in the area in which you need assistance.  The same holds true for flying.  The Mooney is different from the Cessna and Piper and other single engine aircraft.  With its laminar flow wing, low to the ground landing gear and shock disks , even a 1 knot difference in approach speed makes a difference both in landing distance and potential outcome from a higher than normal touchdown rate (aka bounced landing).  An aircraft specific instructor who has "experienced it all" with various students, can make a big difference in guidance and rate of learning.

[201Steve]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

After losing friends and fellow Mooney aviators we knew on here, making my own fair share of dangerous screw ups, reading the reports, and how many years of very active flying it took to genuinely get comfortable with a Mooney, I don’t take the plane or the need for specific training lightly.

That's insinuating that the proportionate accident rate in a Mooney is higher than the average rate in other types of the same class, which would be news to me. This kind of highlights my point that, FLYING is dangerous. I don't know that there is any more inherent risk in flying a Mooney wing than a Piper wing. If there is data on this, I am curious. I'm not here to de-value or scoff at type specific training but it's simply not possible  for the 4 people listed above to train everyone who gets in a Mooney. I know there are more than those 4, but you get the idea. What do we do with rest of them? Tell them it's too risky? Is that reasonable?  Use the best training available to you, sure. For some of us, it's not available immediately.

[donkaye]

13 minutes ago, 201Steve said:

I don't know that there is any more inherent risk in flying a Mooney wing than a Piper wing. If there is data on this, I am curious. I'm not here to de-value or scoff at type specific training but it's simply not possible  for the 4 people listed above to train everyone who gets in a Mooney. I know there are more than those 4, but you get the idea. What do we do with rest of them? Tell them it's too risky? Is that reasonable?  Use the best training available to you, sure. For some of us, it's not available immediately.

You can "plop" a Piper on the ground and it most likely won't bounce because of its oleo struts.  Not so with the Mooney.  You can come in too fast in the Piper, but it is so draggy that once the power is removed it is pretty much done flying.  Not so with the Mooney.  While you should train for perfection in all airplanes, you can "get away" with sloppiness in most other non laminar flow airplanes.  No so in the Mooney.  There are many good Mooney Specific Instructors around the Country.  The Mooney Flyer comes out monthly and lists many of them for most of the States. https://themooneyflyer.com/cfi.html

[bradp]

Re mooney vs piper differences.  Mooney wings don’t fall off for one...

I am not opposed to primary training in a Mooney as long as it’s done right.  Most of what you need to fly a Mooney properly has nothing to do with technique and entirely to do with judgement.  Maybe with the new scenario based PTS (can’t recall the new acronym now), there’s a renewed focus on judgment based training, but I can assure you my primary training and instrument training was lacking in this regard. By judgment I mean all the ADM that comes with a relatively quick cross country machine. All the weather learning that takes years of study and observation to get even a basic hold of.   All the plan A, B, and Cs.  When to abandon plan A.   When not to fly (a huge one).  Real emergency training not just idle the engine, pick a field and run rote through the checklist.  Getting a PPL might be analogous to getting a high school degree or GED; getting an instrument rating is analogous to getting a Bachelors.  Doing primary training in a high performance complex plane that can take you to decisions that can at times be dangerous or risky should be treated like you’re after a masters (if we keep going maybe type rating / ATP would be a PHD).  

I did a bunch of cross country weather flying in the NE, had an IR and a couple of hundred hours when I bought my 201.  I closed on it in California, and did my dual transition training there with a local guy who was the owner’s CFI. It was minimal training.  I had some currency and proficiency and gave myself some protected time to work my way up in terms of personal minimums.  Flew the thing back to Boston as my first trip, but really took it easy.  When I was comfortable with how the plane flew, I worked my way up to passenger carriage etc.  Since then, I’ve had the privilege of getting several hundred hours of mostly trouble free time in my bird and have slowly increased my experience bucket.  Even though I now feel like I “wear” my plane,  there are more often than not times when I am challenged.   I’m always still learning, critiquing, and trying to improve on every flight.  I’ve never had a perfect flight.  Ever.  

Here’s what I would suggest.

- yes get a Mooney specific instructor. It’s more important for you because of the importance of learning primacy.  That way your “law of primacy” will be correct the first time and you won’t have to unlearn bad info. All the little technique things that we seek out when doing transition training you’d learn as muscle memory doing it during primary.  

- commit to continuing through the IR.  Especially if you are using the plane for business.  You’ll take a huge risk out by getting rid of IIMC.  You’ll have more ADM teaching (but I’d argue that instrument training should be teaching weather and terrain SA, preflight and in flight decision making more that it is currently designed to).  

- once you have a PPL commit to fly with an experienced mentor pilot for 25-50 odd hours - like your insurance might require if you were to transition to a high performance twin

- learn weather risks at a much higher level than PPL- Scott D is a great resource.  

- start learning about cross country flying.  I read everything I could - old air facts issues were great and the old sportys DVDs were fun as well.  Participate in these forums.  They are immensely useful.

- start learning what gets people into trouble .  Read the safety sections of the major forums (here and beechtak are the best).  Watch every ASI AOPA video.  Start reading NTSB reports  - read the sanitized stuff on flying and AOPA mags as well.  

Find a great CFI to lead you through this project and you’ll be successful. 

You already presumably know how to use the rudder so you’ll be super impressed with the crosswind handling in the Mooney. 

[201Steve]

19 minutes ago, donkaye said:

You can "plop" a Piper on the ground and it most likely won't bounce because of its oleo struts.  Not so with the Mooney.  You can come in too fast in the Piper, but it is so draggy that once the power is removed it is pretty much done flying.  Not so with the Mooney.  While you should train for perfection in all airplanes, you can "get away" with sloppiness in most other non laminar flow airplanes.  No so in the Mooney.  There are many good Mooney Specific Instructors around the Country.  The Mooney Flyer comes out monthly and lists many of them for most of the States. https://themooneyflyer.com/cfi.html

Good to know, thanks for the link. While I don't disagree, it's still only theory. I've been trying to find "accident rates by aircraft type" but all I can find is stats for commercial models.

[bradp]

10 minutes ago, 201Steve said:

Good to know, thanks for the link. While I don't disagree, it's still only theory. I've been trying to find "accident rates by aircraft type" but all I can find is stats for commercial models.

I went from flying an Arrow on one day to a Mooney the next.  I was acutely aware of the differences in glide ratio during power off (piper is a brick), as well as the landing technique differences going to Mooney (piper is a brick that slows down like it has a drag chute attached to said brick.)

[Hank]

11 minutes ago, bradp said:

I went from flying an Arrow on one day to a Mooney the next.  I was acutely aware of the differences in glide ratio during power off (piper is a brick), as well as the landing technique differences going to Mooney (piper is a brick that slows down like it has a drag chute attached to said brick.)

For fun, take a Piper pilot for a ride in your Mooney, and watch his face when you pull your throttle to idle on short final  .  This works even better if you are still over trees . . . . .