Rickymooneyflyer Posted July 7, 2019 Report Share Posted July 7, 2019 I fly out of KARR a suburb of Chicago. I am trying to find someone who I can hire as a consultant that can provide advice/appraisals and perhaps can also do the pre-buy or an annual. I have heard so many stories about folks that thought they were getting a "great deal" only to find out later that there were hidden defects. I have made the decision after a lot of research to buy one of these great cross county machines; but I need help to get the right plane. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted July 7, 2019 Report Share Posted July 7, 2019 Two years ago I was in your shoes...I understand exactly what you are going through! I shopped for a LONG time and here are my takeaways: 1) Hiring an "expert" carries its own risks...a 'big name' I called wanted nearly $5,000. Of course, if he saves you from a disaster it would be well worth it. Thing is, when you read the 'fine print' even the 'experts' won't guarantee their 'work.' In the end it's still a crap shoot, I'm afraid. 2) A premium, but buying from a well known broker/dealer like Jimmy Garrison should be considered. Again, no guarantee, but guys like that wouldn't be in business this long if they were selling lemons. 3) Finding a plane that has been consistently flown 50-100 hours per year for at least the last five years improves your odds greatly! I was shocked how hard it is to find planes that meet that criteria. Most are un-flown dogs, I'm afraid. The plane I ended up buying had been flown nearly 100 hours per year for over a decade. First annual found no ADs open, and only $2K in needed work. 4) Don't buy a 'bargain' unless you like to restore vs. fly! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 7, 2019 Report Share Posted July 7, 2019 Welcome aboard, Ricky. You have a great idea... by paying somebody to work for you, you have given up the ‘great deal’ aspect... now the focus is on quality... For easy one stop shopping visit with the folks at All American Aircraft... Determining Which Mooney That Best fits you is a great place to start... Expect that some Mooneys that you may be interested in won’t be in the Chicago area... Then there is that pesky budget thing... which ball park are we in? PP thoughts only... I enjoy buying technical machinery... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted July 7, 2019 Report Share Posted July 7, 2019 All American Aircraft with a Maxwell Annual/Pre-buy. Dave is since retired but Jimmy is a guy you can trust and knows how to find what you want. Don is your second set of eyes. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted July 7, 2019 Report Share Posted July 7, 2019 (edited) 30 minutes ago, M20F said: All American Aircraft with a Maxwell Annual/Pre-buy. Dave is since retired but Jimmy is a guy you can trust and knows how to find what you want. Don is your second set of eyes. I read somewhere that DMax and the Garrisons formed a company together now? Both are quite reputable of course, and DMax is ideal for Mooney prebuys in general, but I wonder if using his shop specifically for an All American Aircraft-sold plane would now pose a conflict of interest. It's probably still much less risky than a prebuy done by a non-Mooney expert. 55 minutes ago, Rickymooneyflyer said: I fly out of KARR a suburb of Chicago. I am trying to find someone who I can hire as a consultant that can provide advice/appraisals and perhaps can also do the pre-buy or an annual. I have heard so many stories about folks that thought they were getting a "great deal" only to find out later that there were hidden defects. I have made the decision after a lot of research to buy one of these great cross county machines; but I need help to get the right plane. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Welcome. I went down this road looking for a consultant expert when I was a totally inexperienced newb who was about to get his PPL. My hope was to use money to address my lack of expertise but ultimately decided to go it on my own. In reality, unless the buyers agent is an exceptional expert in Mooneys, you may not get much bang for your buck. Also remember their incentive is often to finish the purchase as quickly as possible for a fixed price. In addition, the money that you spend on the consultant to compensate for your lack of knowledge is information would really benefit you to acquire at the start of the ownership experience. My suggestion would be to read a book on the buying process, do the leg work looking for a plane on your own, review the planes history and the logs carefully, and get feedback on this site. An experienced owner who is local to the aircraft of interest can also then lay eyes on it for you (this was very helpful to me). If it still looks promising, get the plane to a real Mooney expert for prebuy, even if it needs to be flown for a distance. Edited July 7, 2019 by DXB 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted July 7, 2019 Report Share Posted July 7, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, DXB said: Welcome. I went down this road looking for a consultant expert when I was a totally inexperienced newb who was about to get his PPL. My hope was to use money to address my lack of expertise but ultimately decided to go it on my own. In reality, unless the buyers agent is an exceptional expert in Mooneys, you may not get much bang for your buck. Also remember their incentive is often to finish the purchase as quickly as possible for a fixed price. In addition, the money that you spend on the consultant to compensate for your lack of knowledge is information would really benefit you to acquire at the start of the ownership experience. My suggestion would be to read a book on the buying process, do the leg work looking for a plane on your own, review the planes history and the logs carefully, and get feedback on this site. An experienced owner who is local to the aircraft of interest can also then lay eyes on it for you (this was very helpful to me). If it still looks promising, get the plane to a real Mooney expert for prebuy, even if it needs to be flown for a distance. This is EXACTLY what I did. So far, so good...2 years in Edited July 7, 2019 by MikeOH 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 7, 2019 Report Share Posted July 7, 2019 Bummer... It use to be so easy... Buy the plane at AAA... Best/most experienced in the Mooney sales business... Take it to DMax... the other Best in the Mooney business, for PPIs... Independence between sales and inspection is important for a comfortable feeling of non-biased eyes working on your project... these two together make an awesome sales / service team... There are other resources for PPIs in TX... that are really good... ask GSXer if you get that far... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted July 7, 2019 Report Share Posted July 7, 2019 JD and Laura Casteel of SWTA (Southwest Texas Aviation) are doing a lot of pre-buys in Texas. Jimmy Garrison has sold plenty of Mooneys where the pre-buy happened at SWTA. They are at 84R just outside of Austin. Buying a Mooney from AllAmerican and getting a pre-buy done at either Maxwell's or SWTA, is about as sure a thing as you can do in the Mooney world. Good Mooney shops get business from far and wide. I know Mooneys from both coasts that go to Maxwell's every year for their annuals. SWTA has also built a list of customers who will fly in excess of 500 nm to get their quality work. There are lots of other good Mooney shops around the country as well. These are just two in Texas that have particularly good and recent reputations. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted July 7, 2019 Report Share Posted July 7, 2019 1 hour ago, DXB said: I wonder if using his shop specifically for an All American Aircraft-sold plane would now pose a conflict of interest. It's probably still much less risky than a prebuy done by a non-Mooney expert. They have been cahoots for years, both are trustworthy in my book. I would add though my preference is an annual not a pre-buy. Don signs his name/# on one and not the other, if you need the reassurance. If I ever buy again this would be the route I would go. Jimmy and I did a handshake deal for a new prop (eliminate eddy) for $5K hung. Turns out it needed a new backplate and spinner because I had a SWTA cowling. Jimmy over nighted paid for the new stuff without even telling me so I got my plane on the promised date. Don was one who brought it up and it was I want to say almost $4K. I am sure he made money on our deal but it impresses me what he did. Don also stuck him for a lot of airworthy (I came back the next year and cleared the Don advises). Believe me it won’t be the cheapest option out there but sometimes it’s worth a couple of grand extra to get something that is exactly as represented. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishpilot Posted July 7, 2019 Report Share Posted July 7, 2019 All American Aircraft with a Maxwell Annual/Pre-buy. Dave is since retired but Jimmy is a guy you can trust and knows how to find what you want. Don is your second set of eyes. I'm currently going through Jimmy for the Bravo I'm purchasing. He's a straight shooter. PM me if you'd like to talk details.Fly Safe,Safety Forum Mod 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickymooneyflyer Posted July 8, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2019 Thanks so much for the great comments and suggestions. There seems to be consensus on the best pre-buy experts. Thank you very much. I think the only remaining question is (assuming there are no pre-buy issues) how to determine price. I guess once I start negotiating it could be contingent on an appraisal. I know the AOPA has VREF. Does anyone know of an appraiser that is very familiar with Mooneys? It would seem that paying a dealer would cost more than buying direct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
201Steve Posted July 8, 2019 Report Share Posted July 8, 2019 Whoever/whatever you use for help, it goes a long way in being part of the process by doing lots and lots of reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted July 8, 2019 Report Share Posted July 8, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Rickymooneyflyer said: Thanks so much for the great comments and suggestions. There seems to be consensus on the best pre-buy experts. Thank you very much. I think the only remaining question is (assuming there are no pre-buy issues) how to determine price. I guess once I start negotiating it could be contingent on an appraisal. I know the AOPA has VREF. Does anyone know of an appraiser that is very familiar with Mooneys? It would seem that paying a dealer would cost more than buying direct? Contact Jimmy Garrison at All American Aircraft - he has developed a valuation tool recently that reflects the current market and modern avionics values for the Vintage birds much better than Vref. He is happy to send it out. Bear in mind these are full retail prices one might expect from a broker. You are correct there is less negotiating room in general with a dealer, but you will see many private sellers who don’t understand the market be stubborn and stupid in their pricing, so its a crapshoot Edited July 8, 2019 by DXB 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 8, 2019 Report Share Posted July 8, 2019 A real technical challenge... Standardized pricing for Mooneys. There are few resources for valid pricing... The best resource was written by the guy who sells the most Mooneys every year... Jimmy’s name is going to show up up a few times... If you ask... he will probably share the pricing guide he wrote. And updated recently... He used to share it openly in the MAPALog Mooney magazine... over many years... There is a similar but different version of that in the electronic magazine for Mooney Pilots... With internet sales ads... it isn’t hard to form a consensus on pricing... With two similar Mooneys available... you have some buying power.... Meet with Jimmy... he knows the plane’s value. But negotiation could be related to how quickly he prefers a sale... or if he has a second buyer coming in for the plane... or maybe nobody is really interested in planes anymore.... Negotiate hard on your first attempt to buy a plane... you might get lucky. If you have had a deal fall away, because somebody else bought the plane... you already know how you will handle the second one... Imagine there really are people wandering around looking to buy planes with 200amu in their bank account... and the Zelle app, ready to push send... Buying planes is more fun the second time around... buying your second Mooney is even more spectacular... You get kinda good at it over the decades... It really helps to know exactly what you want and don’t want... and find a plane that has exactly that... Then find another Mooney with exactly that same description... playing cards with an open hand... could work really well... Unfortunately, this year... nice Mooneys aren’t hanging around looking for buyers... so finding two of what you are looking for may be tough... There are a few places to look... including a plane sales app around here somewhere... Ultimate negotiations requires extreme secrecy... hard to be secretive if you ask a lot of questions in public... Sometimes ultimate secrecy and the best deal, doesn’t help very much... if you get the wrong plane for your mission... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickymooneyflyer Posted July 8, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2019 Carusoam, Thanks for all the great advice! Opaque markets are always a challenge. However, it seems that Jimmy is a fair guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMuncy Posted July 8, 2019 Report Share Posted July 8, 2019 When I bought my plane (almost 19 years ago), I knew nothing about buying a plane, and precious little about flying. Through sheer luck, I bought through All American, and Maxwell did the pre-buy. I am extremely happy with the outcome. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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