M20C leaky tank

[Huitt3106]

The red flags are flying here! Your money, your choice but history reveals many truths on this forum. 
The best book on buying airplanes is-
How to Buy a Used Aircraft Without Taking a Dive by Unterman.
Out of print but findable. 
With good homework one never needs to fly across the country before one finds a good airplane. Read the book!
 

I’ve spoken with the seller and have decided to walk (well fly home I suppose). The seller has been understanding and there’s no issue with him. He inherited the airplane and isn’t a pilot. It’s unfortunate because it’s a beautiful airplane that would be top of the market if it had been flown regularly and tank repaired. I’ll keep looking and chock the funds spent up to this point as a lesson.


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[Mjknick@gmail.com]

https://lasar.com/buyers-guide


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[jaylw314]

10 minutes ago, Huitt3106 said:

I’ve spoken with the seller and have decided to walk (well fly home I suppose). The seller has been understanding and there’s no issue with him. He inherited the airplane and isn’t a pilot. It’s unfortunate because it’s a beautiful airplane that would be top of the market if it had been flown regularly and tank repaired. I’ll keep looking and chock the funds spent up to this point as a lesson.


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Whew, you had me sweating there for a minute until I got to the end of the thread!   It sucks and it feels like a waste of time and money to fly out for a plane, but it's expected and you've at least learned some stuff.  Certainly less expensive than digging a hole for yourself on a lemon later...

[Mjknick@gmail.com]

Not easy to walk away and my hats off to you. Take your time and find the best value. Your time is worth a lot but this bird was not going to get you across the country without long distance aggravations. Best of luck.


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[DXB]

1 hour ago, Huitt3106 said:

I’ve spoken with the seller and have decided to walk (well fly home I suppose). The seller has been understanding and there’s no issue with him. He inherited the airplane and isn’t a pilot. It’s unfortunate because it’s a beautiful airplane that would be top of the market if it had been flown regularly and tank repaired. I’ll keep looking and chock the funds spent up to this point as a lesson.


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Best of luck - be patient and keep reaching out for guidance any time.  There is a ton of expertise available among members of this site, and everyone wants to see you have a good Mooney ownership experience, not a disastrous one.

 

[carusoam]

5 hours ago, Huitt3106 said:

That’s a very good point. It’s always a coin toss on an aircraft purchase but much worse odds on one that has been sitting. I knew the risks on it having sat a couple years but 7 years was much more than originally advertised


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Sort of a summary of what Huitt went through....

It shouldn’t be a coin toss...

0) Was the price of this plane, near free?

1) The original owner may have known about the plane... but, he is gone.

2) The existing owner doesn’t know anything about the plane... completely unhelpful.

3) PPI done by a non-Mooney mechanic... that leaves opportunity for major unknowns. Engine, tanks, corrosion...

4) Not the First airplane purchase for the OP... yet, still Lots of opportunity for mistakes.

5) plane hasn’t been used in several years... lots of rebuildable fun ahead.  Every rubber piece of hose needs to be known... fuel and oil...

6) doing this from across the country? How can this be sensible? Even if the price is free...

7) Some planes are better for other people...

8) a purchase like this is great for a mechanic who likes reviving old machines and spends a few hours each week on the project...

9) What do the logs say about the tank seal status?  The seal on the outside of the tank says ‘run Forrest, run...’

10) did you read the logs yet? hours on the airframe and engine?

11) do you have money for a proper reseal?

12) are you ready to have an engine OH?

13) pictures of cams and lifters can tell a lot...

14) do you have a family that is depending on you?

15) the best PPIs are the ones that save you from large financial mistakes... your money spent so far, keeps you from buying a big mistake...

16) You have seen the plane, you have learned that the engine and tanks are in ‘unknown’ condition...

17) you have spent the PPI and travel money...

18) what makes you want to go forward with this plane?

19) write two lists... write one list.... good stuff about this plane...

20) If the only thing keeping you going on this plane is the money you have spent already.... this is affecting your decision process...

 

21) This looks More like a first attempt to buy a plane... and the plane is not right for a first time buyer...

22) Go as far into the process as you can, to learn as much as possible...

don’t spend any more money until, you decide that this is worth pursuing...

I stopped flying a plane because no amount of fuel in the cockpit makes any sense... fortunately getting a rubber seal for the fuel level sensor was the solution.

The interior wall panels are removable to see how fuel is getting in... it could be a rubber fuel line connector there...

Just because you know of one leak, doesn’t mean you know of all the leaks...

It is proper etiquette to have a real mechanic remove and replace wall panels in somebody else’s plane...

23) plenty of PPI guidance around here... starts with Mooney knowledgeable mechanic.

24) plenty of guidance supplied by Huitt himself... ‘fill the tanks’... but the seller didn’t...

25) looking from a comfy chair at home... no money spent yet... with this much knowledge as you have today...

would you get out of the chair?  Would you spend the PPI money again?

26) the benefit of a good PPI... not only a list of what is wrong, but the cost to get each thing fixed... there are actually two lists... AW and non-AW...  focus on the AW list first...

27) We didn’t discuss Transition Training either... how familiar with this plane are you in general?  With all of your Cherokee experience are you planning on just flying this home?

28) buying an active plane across the country makes sense.

29) buying an inactive plane across the country makes sense to Grimmy, the Reaper... and a few other mechanic/pilots...

...

30) Call it a learning experience, get home safely... write another list of experiences to use for the next time...

31) Write yourself a list of things that a plane must, have to qualify it for getting to the PPI stage... everyone is different...

 

Just some points to consider while buying used machinery... far away, with lots of unknowns...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[MikeOH]

5 hours ago, Huitt3106 said:

I’ve spoken with the seller and have decided to walk (well fly home I suppose). The seller has been understanding and there’s no issue with him. He inherited the airplane and isn’t a pilot. It’s unfortunate because it’s a beautiful airplane that would be top of the market if it had been flown regularly and tank repaired. I’ll keep looking and chock the funds spent up to this point as a lesson.


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EXCELLENT decision!

I shopped for a LONG time, but quickly learned that there are plenty of candidates close by; no reason to travel across the country to buy a good plane.  I found mine less than 50 miles away.

As I honed my buying skills (after looking at a lot of dogs), I decided recency and quantity of use was crucial...even over engine time.  And, buy with the avionics you want.  I was willing to compromise on paint and interior.

Good luck!

[steingar]

To buy an airplane like that I'd need a significant reduction in price.  To me an airplane 2 years out of annual is scrap metal and worth no more.  Can't legally fly it, so what good is it?  Problem with airplanes like this is you don't know how much money it's going to take to get the thing airworthy.  Easy to get upside down in this day and age.

The price for a commercial flight and some hotel time is chicken feed compared to what you could spend on a  derelict airplane.

[Huitt3106]

To buy an airplane like that I'd need a significant reduction in price.  To me an airplane 2 years out of annual is scrap metal and worth no more.  Can't legally fly it, so what good is it?  Problem with airplanes like this is you don't know how much money it's going to take to get the thing airworthy.  Easy to get upside down in this day and age.
The price for a commercial flight and some hotel time is chicken feed compared to what you could spend on a  derelict airplane.

I agree whole heartedly at this point. I got distracted by nice interior, dual Garmin 430w, new paint, and always being hangared. I definitely made some rookie Mooney mistakes in a rush to get flying again (it’s been over 2 months since I sold my last airplane and have been able to fly anything). I’m to the point I’d rather buy an active mid time or over engine than anything that has sat for more than a few months with low times and decent panel. You can put in a reasonable gps and engine monitor for what that overhaul and other maintenance items would cost.


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[Huitt3106]

I know it could be a completely different thread but as I continue to look over the sale ads I see several C and E models that continue to be on the market. Some of them look like price is keeping them from selling. I can’t see it even being a consideration to sell a C model for close to $60,000 no matter how well equipped. Additionally I can’t see how an E model could sell for over $70,000 when you could spend just a few thousand more and get a nice F with more room. It seems similar to when I was looking at purchasing my Cherokee that some people would ask well over $40,000 or even $50,000 for a Cherokee 140. Am I just completely wrong in my expectations?


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[DXB]

1 hour ago, Huitt3106 said:

I know it could be a completely different thread but as I continue to look over the sale ads I see several C and E models that continue to be on the market. Some of them look like price is keeping them from selling. I can’t see it even being a consideration to sell a C model for close to $60,000 no matter how well equipped. Additionally I can’t see how an E model could sell for over $70,000 when you could spend just a few thousand more and get a nice F with more room. It seems similar to when I was looking at purchasing my Cherokee that some people would ask well over $40,000 or even $50,000 for a Cherokee 140. Am I just completely wrong in my expectations?

I think the market has firmed up in the last few years across the board, and there are few bargains to be had, and there definitely fewer vintage Mooneys on the market now.  I think the case for spending 60-70k on a really nice C or E can be made. I 'd expect fairly priced Fs in the same range would now have significant weaknesses in comparison in terms of avionics, engine, mods, etc. One can also pick up a J model in the 60-70's that is still flying but is a dumpster fire of deferred maintenance and crappy avionics.  Starting off with a better maintained plane with better avionics is likely to bring less long term grief and expense, regardless of the model.

[gsxrpilot]

4 hours ago, Huitt3106 said:

I know it could be a completely different thread but as I continue to look over the sale ads I see several C and E models that continue to be on the market. Some of them look like price is keeping them from selling. I can’t see it even being a consideration to sell a C model for close to $60,000 no matter how well equipped. Additionally I can’t see how an E model could sell for over $70,000 when you could spend just a few thousand more and get a nice F with more room. It seems similar to when I was looking at purchasing my Cherokee that some people would ask well over $40,000 or even $50,000 for a Cherokee 140. Am I just completely wrong in my expectations?

Prices have definitely gone up a bit in the last year or two. And while you're thinking on the right track, I believe you're off just a little.

While you wouldn't want to spend E money on a C, a top dollar C with an autopilot, modern GPS, a nice panel and a few speed mods is more valuable than an E with a wing leveler and original avionics. 

A nice E with speed mods is often more valuable than a stock F. Not everyone needs the back seat and therefore wouldn't need the leg room in the back seat either. So then why carry around the extra weight. A slicked down E with all the speed mods will be faster than an F and therefore could be priced higher.

Prices are going up because they're not making any more of them and there is nothing else out there in the market to take the place of a really nice C, E, F, or J. One that is well maintained, regularly flown, and kept up to date on avionics will fetch top dollar. The top J's are knocking on $200K. 

[Huitt3106]

I suppose my problem is that I’m not trying to get the nicest example for any specific model. I’d be happy with a C or E that had subpar paint/ interior as long as it was sound with a good motor and IFR (preferably a 430w or better) gps. No more actual IFR that I would do I’m even good without a nice autopilot (I would love to have one but it’s not necessary for me). It seems like most examples I’ve found on the market are on one end or the other. That may have more to do with the type of owner that is going to continue to update while they own it or the type that’ll just buy it and fly it while never upgrading and allowing maintenance to slip.

I mostly just want to fly efficiently and don’t care if it isn’t as shiny.


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[gsxrpilot]

I agree with your plan and think it will work in the long run. I also prefer to buy a Mooney that needs paint and interior. And I would want a 430W or better as well. But I'd also want an autopilot. It is such an expensive upgrade to add an autopilot. The difference in price of a C with an autopilot vs one without an autopilot will only be about 25% the price of installing one later. I know of a couple of C's for sale right now that are for sale because they want one with an autopilot. In both cases, I told the owner not to buy one without an autopilot. They insisted they didn't need one. But Mooneys are made for long distance travel and once you have one, you'll likely start doing longer and longer trips... and you're gonna want an autopilot. That's why they're selling...

[Huitt3106]

I agree with your plan and think it will work in the long run. I also prefer to buy a Mooney that needs paint and interior. And I would want a 430W or better as well. But I'd also want an autopilot. It is such an expensive upgrade to add an autopilot. The difference in price of a C with an autopilot vs one without an autopilot will only be about 25% the price of installing one later. I know of a couple of C's for sale right now that are for sale because they want one with an autopilot. In both cases, I told the owner not to buy one without an autopilot. They insisted they didn't need one. But Mooneys are made for long distance travel and once you have one, you'll likely start doing longer and longer trips... and you're gonna want an autopilot. That's why they're selling...

I’m sure you are right. I would love to have one but for budgeting purposes that would be lower on my list of wants. Like many other things, I’d likely regret not getting one with autopilot. What C models are available that you’re speaking of? Any east of the Mississippi?


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[Don Heene]

On 7/4/2019 at 5:35 AM, Huitt3106 said:

 

Ive been looking at a Mooney that I had a pre-buy completed by a mechanic that was recommended to me by a couple local shops/ other mechanics. Once I got here I found his work wasn’t nearly as detailed as I’d hoped and found a few squawks. But, the mechanic isn’t what this question is about. I specifically asked a couple weeks ago for them to put fuel in the tanks and check for leaks. Well, they did but only half filled them, I suppose I should have been more specific. When I got here we went ahead and filled the tanks the rest of the way and low and behold fuel starts dripping from under the airplane. We did some digging and found it to be on the wing root (top) and right at the spar. It’s not a weep, but a drip and gets the carpet wet in the cockpit closest to the drip. My two questions are: Can this aircraft be safely flown with a drip into the cockpit (with the intention of having it patched by my mechanic with MSC experience)? Does anybody have a recent quote for resealing a tank on an M20C if it comes down to that? I’m well aware this has been discussed before and know this is a can of worms I’m opening with a chainsaw. I searched through the forums and haven’t been able to find a definitive answer. Oh by the way, I flew across the country to pick up the airplane so I’m stuck on the opposite coast trying to figure this out. Thanks!

 

 

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Good job taking a walk, hard to do when you find a plane that you like.  If the tank was repaired from the outside that is way too wrong. Never works trying to repair a leak from the outside.  No short cuts trying to fix it right.  I know, I  have sealed my tanks myself with an A&P checking my work.  It takes much longer than you think when you do it yourself because when it's your plane you want it do right.  

 

Good luck on finding the right plane.  

[steingar]

The problem with the OP’s plan is most of the C’s I’ve seen on the market were pretty minimally equipped. Those that were well equipped (WAAS GPS and decent autopilot) also carried a substantial premium. Says me spend E money on a C if it’s got the goods. It’d cost you more to put them in (ask me how I know) and that E money would probably only get you a dog E.

[Huitt3106]

The problem with the OP’s plan is most of the C’s I’ve seen on the market were pretty minimally equipped. Those that were well equipped (WAAS GPS and decent autopilot) also carried a substantial premium. Says me spend E money on a C if it’s got the goods. It’d cost you more to put them in (ask me how I know) and that E money would probably only get you a dog E.

No, I’m talking about C models that aren’t well equipped. Specifically C models that don’t have a 430W or up gps, maybe an older autopilot, and old analog transponders. But, they spent their money on a paint job and refinished the seats and are asking mid 50s and up to 60. If they had some form of GTN gps, ads-b transponder, mid time, and good paint/ interior I could understand this price range a little better. I may still be a bit salty from my recent experience but I’ve noticed this in my search for the past few months.


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[BigD]

Good news is that there are some good planes (it appears) on trade a plane now. Many will need ads-b and other things but look for a bird with good bones: flown regularly and in annual, all ADs complied with. Good luck!


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[BRBENNETT]

Call Paul Beck, WeepNoMore.  Last price was $3500 per wing which is a strip & seal.  Uses chemical process.  It’s so good that Mooney adopted his seal methods for new production.(320) 295-1671.  Great folks, they know Mooneys!!

[Immelman]

Don't fly the airplane with fuel dripping.... let alone into the cabin. The maintenance manual describes the criteria for  a weep vs a seep vs running leak. Some of it is airworthy, some not... but that is outside... if its getting inside, no man, hell no!

With that aside, you can put me into the camp of a full on $7K reseal job is not always what is needed. A good patch, of the area that is leaking, costs far less. Please refer to Don Maxwell's article on how they find and fix leaks, that is golden information... to paraphrase #1: "the leak is not originating where you think it is" based on the outside behavior.

Good luck...

 

Edit: saw that you walked. Keep the above in mind for future airplanes you consider. That isnt the only Mooney with a fuel tank leak, and if you buy one... it is an issue you will likely eventually face if you keep the airplane for any length of time. A leak isn't a show stopper, but it has to be dealt with properly and it CAN be without breaking the bank. If a leak was the only thing wrong with that airplane I'd go back and take a closer look.... but that is because I have been through the pain of learning to patch a leaky tank.

Edited July 9, 2019 by Immelman

[Huitt3106]

Don't fly the airplane with fuel dripping.... let alone into the cabin. The maintenance manual describes the criteria for  a weep vs a seep vs running leak. Some of it is airworthy, some not... but that is outside... if its getting inside, no man, hell no!
With that aside, you can put me into the camp of a full on $7K reseal job is not always what is needed. A good patch, of the area that is leaking, costs far less. Please refer to Don Maxwell's article on how they find and fix leaks, that is golden information... to paraphrase #1: "the leak is not originating where you think it is" based on the outside behavior.
Good luck...
 
Edit: saw that you walked. Keep the above in mind for future airplanes you consider. That isnt the only Mooney with a fuel tank leak, and if you buy one... it is an issue you will likely eventually face if you keep the airplane for any length of time. A leak isn't a show stopper, but it has to be dealt with properly and it CAN be without breaking the bank. If a leak was the only thing wrong with that airplane I'd go back and take a closer look.... but that is because I have been through the pain of learning to patch a leaky tank.

If the only problem was a leak I wouldn’t have thought twice about finding someone to patch it. The leak just ended up being the final straw. There were a whole series of issues found as I was getting ready to test fly it. All things may have been minor (outside of an sitting engine) but I lost confidence in the airplane. Thanks!


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