M20J insurance cost

[Ken4741]

Hello everyone, this is my first post and I appreciate the time everyone puts into this site and this post. I’m in the very early stages of “considering” the purchase of an airplane and in my research I always seem to come to the “201” as the best option for what I want to do with an airplane. 

There was a recent thread that was talking about insurance rates going up 20% recently (though some replied their rates went down or stayed the same), but I’m curious what people are actually paying in total for the year. Again, I’d be looking at rates for a M20J. I realize many variables apply but I’m trying to get a general idea.

A little about me, I just got back into G/A after about 15-20 years off and have been renting a C172 and I am having a blast doing it. I am a 50yr old 11,000/hr airline pilot who’s prior background was G/A and Pt.135 flying. Zero accident/incidents though basically zero Mooney time. (I flew with a friend in his 231 a few times years ago)

Thanks again for everyone’s time.

[201er]

With zero time in Mooney I started around $3000 a year with Avemco but I quickly accumulated time and instrument rating and was below $2000 soon. About $1200 is the best I’ve come down to through Falcon but with the increase it’s now over $1,300.

[Danb]

Welcome aboard Ken ..Mooney’s rock, great choice.

[toto]

This question will probably depend a lot on hull value and coverage limits. 

@Parker_Woodruff is the local expert. 

[carusoam]

Ken,

you are more than qualified to select a GA plane that is right for you...

The 201 is a great airplane!

When comparing planes, there is a resource that lists and details many Mooneys...

Click on their inventory button...

https://www.allamericanaircraft.com/default.htm

Fun times ahead...

The first year of ownership comes with a higher insurance cost... a year experience, some training and an IR usually get the price as low as possible...

Mooneys aren't very expensive to insure compared to other high performance planes...  look forward to the second year of ownership...  

Best regards,

-a-

[M20F]

About $1000 and you will need somebody to scribble in your book 5hrs of dual.  

[Ragsf15e]

I only have an F model, so lower hull value ($75k), but similar experience to you (less hours, but lots).  Mine is $1000.  Initial checkout with Mooney instructor, no other initial requirements.  Spending some time with a knowledgeable Mooney person is real beneficial.

[MikeOH]

Another data point: '70F, insured for $70K, instrument rated, $1056/year.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Just for this post I ran a hypothetical quote from one carrier with pilot information similar to what the Original Post contained.

1984 Mooney M20J (201)

$100,000 Hull Value

Hangared at an airport with decently long runway.

 

ATP, Age 50, 11,000 total time with no losses, DUI, etc. last 5 years

 

$1179 Annually  With liability limits at $1 Million limited to $100,000 Each Passenger bodily injury

$1319 Annually  With liability limits at $1 Million limited to $200,000 Each Passenger bodily injury

$1571 Annually with liability limits at $1 Million "Smooth" (no passenger bodily injury sublimit)

 

Yes, rates are going up.  Not only was there a bit of economic hardening of the insurance market, but this Boeing deal is going to add to that (Grounding Liability loss will be huge on insurers and reinsurers).

[Ken4741]

Thanks for all the replies, really helps! And thank you Parker for running the numbers.

[mike_elliott]

5 hours ago, M20F said:

About $1000 and you will need somebody to scribble in your book 5hrs of dual.  

You wont get me to scribble squat in your book until I am satisfied I would let my most prize treasure, my wife, fly with you. Most take more than 5 hrs.

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Just for this post I ran a hypothetical quote from one carrier with pilot information similar to what the Original Post contained.

1984 Mooney M20J (201)

$100,000 Hull Value

Hangared at an airport with decently long runway.

 

ATP, Age 50, 11,000 total time with no losses, DUI, etc. last 5 years

 

$1179 Annually  With liability limits at $1 Million limited to $100,000 Each Passenger bodily injury

$1319 Annually  With liability limits at $1 Million limited to $200,000 Each Passenger bodily injury

$1571 Annually with liability limits at $1 Million "Smooth" (no passenger bodily injury sublimit)

 

Yes, rates are going up.  Not only was there a bit of economic hardening of the insurance market, but this Boeing deal is going to add to that (Grounding Liability loss will be huge on insurers and reinsurers).

That is very interesting Parker - I hadn’t realized that our ga insurance market was so closely linked to the much larger commercial aviation insurance.  If we need to brace for the Boeing bounce then wow will our rates double?  That debacle will be expensive.

[donkaye]

31 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

You wont get me to scribble squat in your book until I am satisfied I would let my most prize treasure, my wife, fly with you. Most take more than 5 hrs.

You beat me too it, Mike.  Nothing in flying needs to be rushed, no matter total hours---and  that  especially includes getting checked out in a new type of airplane.

I"ve been thinking a lot each day about "2019 Acclaim Ultra down at DVT".  For a newly rated Jet Type Rating the insurance company of my student required experienced type rated pilot for the first 100 hours.  Unless someone has a lot of experience in high performance aircraft of similar Type and Class, I now think something similar should be required for large steps to very high performance airplanes like the long bodied Mooney. 

[M016576]

32 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Unless someone has a lot of experience in high performance aircraft of similar Type and Class, I now think something similar should be required for large steps to very high performance airplanes like the long bodied Mooney. 

Interesting thought.  So you’re thinking something like a “very high performance piston” rating?  What would be the delineation between that and a “regular” high performance piston airplane?  Or are you thinking that GA needs to start going down the road of type ratings for light single engine pistons under part 91?  Or are you thinking this should strictly be an insurance driven requirement?

Edited June 30, 2019 by M016576

[201er]

3 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:Yes, rates are going up.  Not only was there a bit of economic hardening of the insurance market, but this Boeing deal is going to add to that (Grounding Liability loss will be huge on insurers and reinsurers).

Are you saying we have to pay for Boeing screwing up???

Does that mean that Boeing will be chipping in for the slew of Mooney gear ups and accidents too?

[donkaye]

16 minutes ago, M016576 said:

Interesting thought.  So you’re thinking something like a “very high performance piston” rating?  What would be the delineation between that and a “regular” high performance piston airplane?  Or are you thinking that GA needs to start going down the road of type ratings for light single engine pistons under part 91?  Or are you thinking this should strictly be an insurance driven requirement?

No.  Just get some more time flying with a more experienced person to see how they operate the plane of interest.  For example, from experience, I personally don't like flying in the afternoon turbulence associated with the Southwest.  You can go a long way in 6 hours in the morning before the thermal turbulence kicks up, and then enjoy the afternoon at a destination chosen for a fun purpose.  As another example, in the mid 90's I had a student who was the lead in singer in a famous band that played all over the US.  He had just gotten the Ovation.  He asked me to go with him, and we had all kinds of decisions to make due to weather.  He saw how I went about it to mitigate risk.  We rarely were held up completely due to weather.  We were sometimes, though, and I had to stay with the plane while took the tour bus.

Please, I make no judgement regarding the circumstances of the accident, but we flew Kerrville to Chandler the day of the accident and arrived in Chandler at 1:00pm.  The turbulence down low was close to moderate as expected and the temperature was over 100.  We were done for the day and enjoyed our time at the Crowne Plaza.  Early the next morning we were off to Minden, NV in smooth, cool conditions.

[PT20J]

51 minutes ago, donkaye said:

I"ve been thinking a lot each day about "2019 Acclaim Ultra down at DVT".  For a newly rated Jet Type Rating the insurance company of my student required experienced type rated pilot for the first 100 hours.  Unless someone has a lot of experience in high performance aircraft of similar Type and Class, I now think something similar should be required for large steps to very high performance airplanes like the long bodied Mooney. 

Interesting point, Don. It works the other way, too. I know a guy that had a few thousand hours flying corporate King Airs. When he bought a Bonanza, the insurance company required 25 hours of dual from an experienced Bonanza CFI. The rationale was that claims history showed that pilots moving down are often at greater risk that when moving up. There is increased risk anytime you are flying something you don't have experience in.

I think it is good to remember that the insurance companies are in the business of quantifying and pricing risk. If one pilot's premiums are higher than average it might indicate that there really is more risk there and the pilot might want to think hard about what steps might be taken to minimize the risks. 

And do make sure to do whatever the insurance company requires. When I was working in Anchorage AK in the mid 80's, a guy bought a Tailorcraft for around $10K. The insurance required 10 hours tailwheel instruction since he had only flown trikes. After about an hour or two, he went off on his own. He lost control of it landing at MRI in a crosswind, ran off the runway into Alyeska Helicopter's ramp and chopped the tail boom off a Jet Ranger. Repairs were north of $100K and guess what happened to the claim when the pilot couldn't show evidence of the ten hours of dual?

Skip

 

 

[M016576]

2 hours ago, PT20J said:

And do make sure to do whatever the insurance company requires. When I was working in Anchorage AK in the mid 80's, a guy bought a Tailorcraft for around $10K. The insurance required 10 hours tailwheel instruction since he had only flown trikes. After about an hour or two, he went off on his own. He lost control of it landing at MRI in a crosswind, ran off the runway into Alyeska Helicopter's ramp and chopped the tail boom off a Jet Ranger. Repairs were north of $100K and guess what happened to the claim when the pilot couldn't show evidence of the ten hours of dual?

Interesting point Chip... I guess the moral of the story is sometimes you can’t save(out-regulate?) people from themselves!

[M20F]

10 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

You wont get me to scribble squat in your book until I am satisfied I would let my most prize treasure, my wife, fly with you. Most take more than 5 hrs.

Then we will be sure not to ask you. 

[mike_elliott]

7 minutes ago, M20F said:

Then we will be sure not to ask you. 

Good, there are a lot of 25$ hr time builders that might be a better fit for you.

[M20F]

5 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Good, there are a lot of 25$ hr time builders that might be a better fit for you.

I tend to gravitate to people with humility, your right not a good fit. 

[NotarPilot]

Hi Ken, I’ll chip in with my experience. When I bought my J in 2012 I had between 2 and 3,000 hours, mostly helicopter time with about 50 or 60 hours of FW time as a private FW pilot.  I think my first year was around $1,100 and I think I had it insured for $80–$85k.  The insurance company wanted 5 hours dual and 10 hours solo before carrying passengers when I bought the plane.  I think as a new Mooney pilot landing is the most serious challenge.  I had to learn to let the plane land itself.  Never force it onto the runaway.  It’ll float then it’ll land when she’s ready.  

Anyways, I have since upped the insured value to $95k and my last premium was $979 with a $1m limit.  I have not seen the 20% increase others have mentioned at all.  I now have about FW 600 hours with an instrument rating.  I would imagine your premiums to be similar to mine being that you’re  more experienced as a pilot than I am.  I hope this helps.

[BaldEagle]

I got my J early 2018, insured for 85k.  Total time was about 1,400 with about half of that retract time.  Total time in a J: 0 hours.  Total time in the last year (in fact the previous TWELVE years) 10 hours (in a PA28 no less).  My premium was $1,000.  Insurance company just asked for a checkout with a Mooney CFI (which I did with the ferry pilot who was a CFI with tons of Mooney time). This was completely nuts: after such a long hiatus from flying I had no idea what I was doing and I was expecting 10 hours dual.  I did have about 300 hours in an E, which they considered as J time as the type was so similar, but many years ago.  I’m late 40’s comm / single / multi / IR / expired CFII.  Since then I got my IPC and about 100 hours on the J, and my premium increased by $40 despite the fact that I am inarguably a lower risk compared to a year ago.  Insurance company is Global Aerospace through a broker.  This probably doesn’t help as I think I’m a bit of a weird case.

[alextstone]

I tend to gravitate to people with humility, your right not a good fit. 

I'll take safe over humble any day

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[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, alextstone said:

I'll take safe over humble any day

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Who says you can't have both in a CFI?