A certain flavor of “hero”

[ZuluZulu]

3 minutes ago, M016576 said:

Seems to me then, that maybe a 15,000 hour CFI reminding the pilot to raise his gear could have been prudent.  

I could certainly be wrong, though, as (thankfully) I wasn’t there.

That could have been done from the ground with a handheld radio.

[Shadrach]

22 minutes ago, Hank said:

There are characters everywhere. Sometimes it's me, sometimes it's probably you. And the two of us don't fly much in Florida . . . .

I dated a girl from Tampa who had the same attitude as Steingar about her state. She told me to look at the missing person posts at my local mega mart and count how many are abducted in FL. I’ve been doing it ever since she mentioned it about 10 years ago. Florida is always over represented and is often more than half.

I don’t think it reflects poorly on Floridians. I think it’s largely because Florida has a lot of transients and a diverse offering of what might be considered temporary blue collar work (construction, landscaping, marina, fishing etc.). 

[RLCarter]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

And if I had any doubt at all I only needed to watch a couple more videos. Overhead break in a Cirrus? Really? Following his solo student in trail? Can’t imagine how that might go wrong. And he’s proud of these stunts. Of course, didn’t need to see those videos to know this tool is in Florida. Every time I hear about something two steps beyond stupid, it’s Florida. Respect to the Fla residents on the site, but there exists an abundance of, shall we say, characters in your state. 

Glad he’s down there. Life is hard enough around here without maroons like that gumming up the mix.

And why do you say he lives in Florida?

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, M016576 said:

Seems to me then, that maybe a 15,000 hour CFI reminding the pilot to raise his gear could have been prudent.  

I could certainly be wrong, though, as (thankfully) I wasn’t there.

Did you listen to the exchange? The pilot’s response to the CFI was “Actually we’re trying to slow it down, frankly”.  

Sorry but I could not give two flaming $hits how many hours someone claims.  Some of the most ignorent  comments I’ve ever heard in aviation were preceded with “I have 10,000hrs and...”   

Unsolicited, unauthorized and unbriefed intercept with unsolicited and unauthorized advice from an unidentified cirrus pilot who then attempts to take over the the situation with little to no knowledge of the problem = all balls, d^ck and no forehead.

If he had attempted that with me I’d have have graciously asked him to meet me after shutdown so I could “thank” him in person.

Edited June 29, 2019 by Shadrach

[Andy95W]

5 hours ago, EricJ said:

If it had been me in the Arrow I'd have flat out told him to cut the chatter and keep the channel clear.  

"Tower, can you get this douche bag away from me?"

[201er]

After listening to the ATC recording, a bit more comes to light. In Anthony fashion, here are some facts:

-Arrow checked in with tower and started he has a throttle cable issue

-Tower asked if he is declaring an emergency and he said no but wants to exercise caution

-The Cirrus was already at the hold short of the departure runway presumably on an unrelated flight. No indication that formation Flight was arranged or that he knew the “Arrow in distress.”

-Cirrus asks to be directed to the Arrow in distress so he could “work him.”

-Tower clears Cirrus for a pattern but then asks him to make a 360 to make spacing for the Arrow

-Tower tells the Arrow that the Cirrus will “intercept” or “hook up”

-Cirrus starts interrogating Arrow with questions upon “interception” about his situation

-Cirrus tells Arrow to pick up his gear but Arrow responds really he’s trying to slow down (Cirrus probably missed the original check in when the Arrow said he has throttle cable issues and can’t add or reduce power). Cirrus tells Arrow tomretract flsps

-Some time later the Cirrus tells the Arrow to extend flaps and gear and to put nose down

-After landing, the Cirrus tells Arrow to cut mixture and retract flaps

[EricJ]

The other notable thing about the gear, the Arrow driver *did* pull the gear up and then put it back down very shortly after while turning base.   He also kept his flaps up after the Cirrus driver told him to.   The upshot was that the Arrow overshot a bit which led to the Cirrus driver telling him to pull up the flaps to get it on the runway so that he doesn't overrun.

I think the Arrow may have actually had it pretty well under control and got goofed up by trying to follow the Cirrus' advice.

Then the Cirrus wanted the Arrow to park someplace else so that he could look at it.   I could almost hear in the Arrow's voice, 'naw, don't need to meet that guy'.

Just speculating based on my interpretation of listening to it, but the Arrow didn't sound distressed at all.   If it were me I would have been fine with somebody coming up to shadow me if I were asked, but the running commentary would not have been welcome, especially when not really needed, and doubly especially if I'd already given a hint that the advice was counter to what I was trying to get done.

Again, just speculating based on one view of a vid.   I'd love to hear the Arrow's side of it, but it's fun to talk about it, anyway. 

Edited June 29, 2019 by EricJ

[RogueOne]

I would not have wanted him talking to me when I am trying to work a problem and get my plane on the ground.  Kind of like a guy on the golf course telling you what swing changes you need to make when you didn’t ask...

[ZuluZulu]

After listening to the tape and watching the video, I was surprised the tower controller went along with the Cirrus basically appointing himself protector of the realm.

[M016576]

 

3 hours ago, EricJ said:

The other notable thing about the gear, the Arrow driver *did* pull the gear up and then put it back down very shortly after while turning base.   He also kept his flaps up after the Cirrus driver told him to.   The upshot was that the Arrow overshot a bit which led to the Cirrus driver telling him to pull up the flaps to get it on the runway so that he doesn't overrun.

I think the Arrow may have actually had it pretty well under control and got goofed up by trying to follow the Cirrus' advice.

Then the Cirrus wanted the Arrow to park someplace else so that he could look at it.   I could almost hear in the Arrow's voice, 'naw, don't need to meet that guy'.

Just speculating based on my interpretation of listening to it, but the Arrow didn't sound distressed at all.   If it were me I would have been fine with somebody coming up to shadow me if I were asked, but the running commentary would not have been welcome, especially when not really needed, and doubly especially if I'd already given a hint that the advice was counter to what I was trying to get done.

Again, just speculating based on one view of a vid.   I'd love to hear the Arrow's side of it, but it's fun to talk about it, anyway. 

On the POA board (the link is above), the CFI is getting a similar lambasting as he is here.  There is one post on there that describes “the rest of the story” as the arrow pilot being thankful for the help, and that the CFI gave the arrow pilot a ride back to his home field.  They also describe the CFI as a bit of a philanthropist and generally a well respected guy.

 

again- I don’t know this guy and I’m happy I wasn’t there.  I wouldn’t have done what he did, but sometimes asking a question or two can help, and having a set of eyeballs on the outside of your plane might not hurt either.  Just so happens that this was “free advice.”

I’m with you- I would have been OK with him in a Chase position... but I would have been directive with what “help” I wanted: i.e.- “do you see fuel or oil leaking from my plane? No? Ok then- shut the F- up unless you see me catch on fire.”

Edited June 29, 2019 by M016576

[M016576]

4 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Did you listen to the exchange? The pilot’s response to the CFI was “Actually we’re trying to slow it down, frankly”.  

Sorry but I could not give two flaming $hits how many hours someone claims.  Some of the most ignorent  comments I’ve ever heard in aviation were preceded with “I have 10,000hrs and...”   

Unsolicited, unauthorized and unbriefed intercept with unsolicited and unauthorized advice from an unidentified cirrus pilot who then attempts to take over the the situation with little to no knowledge of the problem = all balls, d^ck and no forehead.

If he had attempted that with me I’d have have graciously asked him to meet me after shutdown so I could “thank” him in person.

Nope, I didn’t, not until after I read the POA thread.  

For sure this guy did not go about “helping” on a very tactful manner.  Seems like he overreacted  to me.

but taken in isolation... if I heard an aircraft was losing power, and I saw its gear down, I might ask the question- “check gear”, depending on how much energy they had and where they were located in relation to the runway... not saying the CFI was right in this circumstance, far from it.  Again- I wasn’t there, so I really don’t really know the full story- just the video (which indeed appears rediculous).

[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, 201er said:

After listening to the ATC recording, a bit more comes to light. In Anthony fashion, here are some facts:

-Arrow checked in with tower and started he has a throttle cable issue

-Tower asked if he is declaring an emergency and he said no but wants to exercise caution

-The Cirrus was already at the hold short of the departure runway presumably on an unrelated flight. No indication that formation Flight was arranged or that he knew the “Arrow in distress.”

-Cirrus asks to be directed to the Arrow in distress so he could “work him.”

-Tower clears Cirrus for a pattern but then asks him to make a 360 to make spacing for the Arrow

-Tower tells the Arrow that the Cirrus will “intercept” or “hook up”

-Cirrus starts interrogating Arrow with questions upon “interception” about his situation

-Cirrus tells Arrow to pick up his gear but Arrow responds really he’s trying to slow down (Cirrus probably missed the original check in when the Arrow said he has throttle cable issues and can’t add or reduce power). Cirrus tells Arrow tomretract flsps

-Some time later the Cirrus tells the Arrow to extend flaps and gear and to put nose down

-After landing, the Cirrus tells Arrow to cut mixture and retract flaps

Like many youtubers, this guy was likely thrilled at the potential of recording some interesting and unexpected content for his channel...regardless of outcome.

Edited June 29, 2019 by Shadrach

[Shadrach]

@M016576 what I see in that video is a guy with a mechanical problem (throttle disconnected at 12” of MP) who has a plan and is seemingly managing his energy well. Cirrus guy shows up on the scene and talks him into raising the gear and flaps both of which are deployed again seconds later. Aircraft arrives at runway high and hot. Cirrus then instructs Arrow to dump flaps to “get it on the runway”. Arrow touches down and stops in the last third of the runway while Cirrus guy flies in trail to get footage.

I am just imagining myself in that situation - I’m talking to tower. Throttle is useless. I’ve called pan pan because I judge that I have more than adequate energy to make an on airport landing. Then out of nowhere while in between my high key and low key position someone pulls up on my right hand side to inform me that I’ve got it all wrong.

I understand where you’re coming from. Not everyone practices dead stick energy management (though everyone should as it’s a lot of fun and very useful). Any decent person wants to help someone in distress. In this case that begins with asking if you can be of assistance. Not immediately scrambling yourself in your Cirrus to intercept. 

We agree the video is rediculous, but did you read the short local news piece? The cirrus pilot was interviewed but the arrow pilot was not. In my opinion this is one of the most blatant examples of false humility I’ve ever encountered. The comment section is worth reading.

http://connecticut.news12.com/story/40718284/it-was-a-team-effort-instructor-helps-disabled-aircraft-land-safely

This guy is about attention and clicks for his channel. I wonder what he’d have done with the footage had the arrow had run out of airspeed and altitude before reaching the airport.

Edited June 30, 2019 by Shadrach

[Davidv]

10 hours ago, steingar said:

And if I had any doubt at all I only needed to watch a couple more videos. Overhead break in a Cirrus? Really? Following his solo student in trail? Can’t imagine how that might go wrong. And he’s proud of these stunts. Of course, didn’t need to see those videos to know this tool is in Florida. Every time I hear about something two steps beyond stupid, it’s Florida. Respect to the Fla residents on the site, but there exists an abundance of, shall we say, characters in your state. 

Glad he’s down there. Life is hard enough around here without maroons like that gumming up the mix.

I actually think almost all of his videos (or at least the ones I saw on his channel) are in the Northeast in CT.  I don't really take offense to the Florida comment like some others may because it would be like me saying "of course it's a cirrus pilot" (queue the line of people about to tell me how much better a cirrus is and how they did in fact once spin one in Europe).  But would anyone else but a Cirrus pilot do this?  Probably not. :).

I will say that it feels like we have our disproportionate amount of incidents down here but it could be because the world is coming here to train.  It could also be that we have over 15K GA aircraft based in this state vs. something like 6K in Ohio, for example. 

[1964-M20E]

Once the Arrow had the runway made why didn't the Cirrus make a right turn away from the arrow and the airport?  The cirrus didn't need to fly 40' parallel to the runway.

[Ned Gravel]

I recognise this airport (Sikorsky Airport in Bridgeport, CT).  Kept my Mooney there for two nights while the airport I was using (Oxford, CT) had closed their operations for taxiway resurfacing.  

No comment on the "intercept and save," although I have heard that level of concern (from the Arrow pilot) in voices over radios before - another life and another profession.  

It is clear to me, however, that the instructor:

1. thought he needed to help, and
2. is self aggrandizing the result.

Just my 0.02.

[PTK]

In my opinion the Arrow had it under control as evidenced by the fact that he didn't declare an emx. Whatever the Cirrus guy did or didn’t do and whatever his motivations were, he certainly was not helpful. But the issue I see is with ATC. Why in the world would ATC allow some random airplane go up and shadow an airplane in distress? The responsibility is on ATC. Bad decision on their part. Very bad. They could've asked the Cirrus guy to come up to the tower if they or he wanted to help. Certainly not allow him to do what he did. 

[bradp]

Couple of choice quotes from PoA and the channel 12 news site 

“there aint no way in hell im letting some former washed up turbo weenie pilot trying to relive his glory days, join up on my wing in civi flying. id drop a NMAC on this clown faster than he can count to 709.”

 

”the other plane was the concentrational (sic) equivalent of a bee in the cockpit”

 

Not sure what an NMAC is but it’s still funny.

 

$25k instructor fees for this dude (not including aircraft) for a 14-day IR.  $1800/day instruction. That’s not too funny.  Probably perfect for for the more money than sense want to be the only single piston flying in a 500 nm radius of awful weather crowd.  

[201er]

Near mid air collision

For the kind of dimwit that would pay $1,800 a day, this Cirrus guy might actually look like a macho hero they are looking for.

 

Edited June 29, 2019 by 201er

[ziggysanchez]

I've been reading the comments about this video on several different sites and based on some of the comments I've read it's no wonder that so many of us pilots end up as large smoking craters in the ground. One of the most prevalent comments I've read is, "The Arrow pilot never asked for help or declared an emergency so the Cirrus pilot shouldn't have engaged him."  Have we so quickly forgotten about the countless GA accidents we've read about that involve pilots being in trouble and not declaring an emergency or asking for help? After fatal crashes we've all listened to those radio exchanges between ATC and pilots where the pilots didn't declare an emergency much less ask for help in a bad situation that eventually costs the pilot his life. It's a big reason why so many pilots die in their airplanes. WE DON'T TYPICALLY ASK FOR HELP EVEN WHEN WE NEED IT. Another prevalent comment has been, "The Arrow pilot seemed calm and seemed to have everything under control." Yes he did sound calm and in control....just like most of the pilots who die because they fail to declare and ask for help. Based on a lot of the comments I've been reading it seems that many pilots are still exhibiting attitudes that in an emergency may kill them. The pilots saying they would have told this "tool" of a Cirrus pilot to buzz off must be much better in stressful situations than most. A second set of eyes from another pilot not under stress seems like it may be a good thing to have available in a situation like this.

After watching the video the Arrow pilot clearly seemed to have things under control so I think the Cirrus pilots actions were probably unnecessary, but there was no way for the tower or the Cirrus driver to know for sure by just listening on the radio. In my opinion the Cirrus pilot put himself in a good position far enough behind and to the right of the Arrow to not be a distraction. The advice he gave was minimal, brief and good advice for energy management. Most of all the outcome was positive and we're not reading about an Arrow pilot that came up short of the runway that failed to declare an emergency and died or was injured in a crash.

When I first saw this video my feelings were that if I had been the Arrow pilot in this situation I would have been offended at the Cirrus pilots attempt to help me. It would have definitely challenged my ego. After marinating on it for a couple days I've come to the conclusion that I can neither condemn or endorse the actions or attitude of the Cirrus pilot because I'm not him and I don't know what motivated his actions. I can say that the fact that I would have shunned and been offended by another pilots attempt to help me in a bad situation shows I needed an attitude adjustment.

[Shadrach]

14 minutes ago, ziggysanchez said:

I've been reading the comments about this video on several different sites and based on some of the comments I've read it's no wonder that so many of us pilots end up as large smoking craters in the ground. One of the most prevalent comments I've read is, "The Arrow pilot never asked for help or declared an emergency so the Cirrus pilot shouldn't have engaged him."  Have we so quickly forgotten about the countless GA accidents we've read about that involve pilots being in trouble and not declaring an emergency or asking for help? After fatal crashes we've all listened to those radio exchanges between ATC and pilots where the pilots didn't declare an emergency much less ask for help in a bad situation that eventually costs the pilot his life. It's a big reason why so many pilots die in their airplanes. WE DON'T TYPICALLY ASK FOR HELP EVEN WHEN WE NEED IT. Another prevalent comment has been, "The Arrow pilot seemed calm and seemed to have everything under control." Yes he did sound calm and in control....just like most of the pilots who die because they fail to declare and ask for help. Based on a lot of the comments I've been reading it seems that many pilots are still exhibiting attitudes that in an emergency may kill them. The pilots saying they would have told this "tool" of a Cirrus pilot to buzz off must be much better in stressful situations than most. A second set of eyes from another pilot not under stress seems like it may be a good thing to have available in a situation like this.

After watching the video the Arrow pilot clearly seemed to have things under control so I think the Cirrus pilots actions were probably unnecessary, but there was no way for the tower or the Cirrus driver to know for sure by just listening on the radio. In my opinion the Cirrus pilot put himself in a good position far enough behind and to the right of the Arrow to not be a distraction. The advice he gave was minimal, brief and good advice for energy management. Most of all the outcome was positive and we're not reading about an Arrow pilot that came up short of the runway that failed to declare an emergency and died or was injured in a crash.

When I first saw this video my feelings were that if I had been the Arrow pilot in this situation I would have been offended at the Cirrus pilots attempt to help me. It would have definitely challenged my ego. After marinating on it for a couple days I've come to the conclusion that I can neither condemn or endorse the actions or attitude of the Cirrus pilot because I'm not him and I don't know what motivated his actions. I can say that the fact that I would have shunned and been offended by another pilots attempt to help me in a bad situation shows I needed an attitude adjustment.

 Nothing he did was helpful...nothing.

[ziggysanchez]

1 minute ago, Shadrach said:

 Nothing he did was helpful...nothing.

I agree. In this situation no help was needed. I thought I said that.

 

[Davidv]

8 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

 Nothing he did was helpful...nothing.

He’s the airplane version of Nick Burns, except with zero talent. 

[201er]

38 minutes ago, ziggysanchez said:

After fatal crashes we've all listened to those radio exchanges between ATC and pilots where the pilots didn't declare an emergency much less ask for help in a bad situation that eventually costs the pilot his life. It's a big reason why so many pilots die in their airplanes. WE DON'T TYPICALLY ASK FOR HELP EVEN WHEN WE NEED IT. Another prevalent comment has been, "The Arrow pilot seemed calm and seemed to have everything under control."

The only dire emergency I observed was the near mid air collision hazard and careless and reckless unsolicited operation of the Cirrus in close proximity to the Arrow. In retrospect the Arrow should have declared an Emergency to have tower clear the Cirrus away but I think he had his hands full dealing with his own issues.

[DXB]

Breaking my promise to stay out of this    It seems hard to help a pilot who is already handling a serious problem in a calm and deliberate way. That pilot is probably already using most of the mental bandwidth to handle the situation, and distracting him for any reason is a risky proposition in the cost-benefit analysis. The guidance offered here seems mostly worthless and so stands far greater chance of causing harm.  

It seems almost as hard to help a pilot who is frazzled and not doing a great job, unless you can say a quick word to calm them down, and/or tell them to fix one simple discrete thing that they clearly should do different. That's a pretty high bar too.

That 'seasoned expert" on the ground who became aware of the emergency unfolding might have simply have asked the tower to let the pilot know he's available to offer any guidance on the radio if it is requested.  

"First do no harm" seems to be the overarching principle that is being violated here.  Glad it turned out ok.

Edited June 29, 2019 by DXB