Lycoming vs Continetal

[Fernando Paez]

Good afternoon.

I owned a 2006 Columbia 400 with a Continental engine and sold it to buy a 2010 PA46 Matrix with a Lycoming engine.

In my opinion the Lycoming engine was far superior. 

Iam intrigued at why Mooney replaced the Lycoming engines on the Bravos for the Continental on the Acclaims?

Was there a specific reason why they did that? What were the advantages?

 

Please advise,

 

Fernando Paez

[Danb]

I couldn’t agree with you more Fernando precisely why I have a Bravo instead of a  Columbia 400 or TTX, Acclaims we’re not out yet when I purchased my plane 

[Fernando Paez]

Thank you Dan. 

From your profile picture your Bravo looks really amazing.

What other differences are there between the Bravo and Acclaim other than the engine? 

What have you seen to be the Pros and Cons from one airplane versus the other?

Iam a fan of Mooney and its legendary speed.

 

Reagrds,

 

Fernando

[steingar]

A pal of mine had one of those, though the aircraft were still going by the name Lanceair.  He didn't seem to mind the engine so much.  Damn thing was fast, though entering it felt more like getting into a boat.

[LANCECASPER]

4 hours ago, Fernando Paez said:

Good afternoon.

I owned a 2006 Columbia 400 with a Continental engine and sold it to buy a 2010 PA46 Matrix with a Lycoming engine.

In my opinion the Lycoming engine was far superior. 

Iam intrigued at why Mooney replaced the Lycoming engines on the Bravos for the Continental on the Acclaims?

Was there a specific reason why they did that? What were the advantages?

 

Please advise,

 

Fernando Paez

Mooney legend has it that when Jacques Esculier was President of Mooney after they introduced the TLS and they started having problems with cylinders on the TIO-540-AF1B that Lycoming said the immediate solution was to lower the TIT to 1650 rather than 1750 and go with lower power settings. That changed range & top speed numbers which affected the marketing of the airplane. It turned out Lycoming was right. Jacques was reported to have said that they would never go with another Lycoming engine on a new Mooney again.

[Fernando Paez]

Wow! 

I understand. Thank you for sharing. 

I think Lycoming must of gotten their act together after that. I loved the engine on my PA46 and had all sorts of trouble with the Continental on the Columbia/Lancair. 

Regards,

Fernando 

 

[Danb]

FERNANDO.  Lance recently converted his TLS to a Bravo I believe he’ll knows the inherent differences.

Heat kills engines, I’ve always payed strict attention to all my temps. My engine still runs strong and actually meets books numbers.

Acclaims are considerably faster most likely due to eliminating drag and cleaning up the cowling and other areas, I’d assume an acclaim with the lycoming would have similar numbers as it has with the continental but that’s a guess I have no facts to back that up.

Acclaim, Bravo and Ovation are long bodies and are similar on the inside, comfortable to me not being a big guy I’m more comfy in my Mooney than my friends Bo and Cirrus although the Cirrus s similar to a new car inside.

Bravo’s like fuel I’m sure the acclaim is more efficient as is the Ovation.

Many long bodies are short on useful load mine is 1040# no AC or TKS

Lover all three of my Mooney’s I’m not even prejudiced 

[LANCECASPER]

27 minutes ago, Danb said:

Acclaims are considerably faster most likely due to eliminating drag and cleaning up the cowling and other areas, I’d assume an acclaim with the lycoming would have similar numbers as it has with the continental but that’s a guess I have no facts to back that up.

Very good point!

[carusoam]

Fernando,

Some recent Acclaims have been fitted with 310hp twin turbo-normalized Continental IO550s...

Controlling temps is key to engine health...

30gph FF is a popular T/O and climb setting...

The curvy intake tubes make for better balanced air/fuel ratios which allow a broader range for running LOP. 

Having a Lycoming O360 early on, I was looking forward to growing with an IO540...

It takes getting used to changing from one manufacturer to another... both are good, just different... Ford v. Chevy....

I would love to have an Acclaim, or Bravo, or Ovation... all are well powered... 

We have one MSer that has gone with the P46T... now that’s an engine choice..!

Best regards,

-a-

[Niko182]

 

7 hours ago, Danb said:

Acclaims are considerably faster most likely due to eliminating drag and cleaning up the cowling and other areas, I’d assume an acclaim with the lycoming would have similar numbers as it has with the continental but that’s a guess I have no facts to back that up.

I think once hartzell comes out with the acclaim prop for the bravo, you should be able to get 5 to 10 knots of a speed increase.
on the ovations, if you went from the the 3 blade mc prop to the thick hartzell prop, you'd gain 3 to 5 knots. if you went from the thick
hartzell prop to the Thin hartzell prop, you'd gain another 3 to 5 knots.
10 knots then again might be stretching it, but i wouldn't be surprised if people saw that.

The hartzell's are also really happy in the mid teens. I've noticed that I get the best economy at
around 12k feet. I get around 185 knots, burning 14.5GPH at peak with the CHT's around 330,
and 179 to 181 knots on 13GPH LOP.

Going back to engines, so far, I've been happy with my TCM engine knock on wood. it's nearing 1700 hours, and has had one Cylinder changed. Oil change every 50 hours, and just keep on flying it. I however don't run it hard. I cruise max at 65%, and don't let the CHT's get above 375*. right after about 30 seconds after takeoff, I also pull the power back from 2700RPM to 2550RPM.

[Frank B.]

4 hours ago, carusoam said:

Fernando,

Some recent Acclaims have been fitted with 310hp twin turbo-normalized Continental IO550s...

Controlling temps is key to engine health...

30gph FF is a popular T/O and climb setting...

The curvy intake tubes make for better balanced air/fuel ratios which allow a broader range for running LOP. 

Having a Lycoming O360 early on, I was looking forward to growing with an IO540...

It takes getting used to changing from one manufacturer to another... both are good, just different... Ford v. Chevy....

I would love to have an Acclaim, or Bravo, or Ovation... all are well powered... 

We have one MSer that has gone with the P46T... now that’s an engine choice..!

Best regards,

-a-

I would love to hear the numbers and see a photo of a Mooney with a P&W PT6A-42A. Now that dude would have to be a real screamer. Please share more info.

[Danb]

Franky the P&W PT6 is in his  piper jet , he went from an O to the monster Mirage 

[Davidv]

Fuel efficiency is a difference as others have pointed out because many people with the TIO-540 won’t run lean of peak because it’s too risky with our temps.  I haven’t heard of many people out there who run the engine per the POH at peak and expect to make TBO without swapping multiple cylinders. It’s not all 540s, just the combination of this engine inside of the Mooney cowling.

Like most, I burn about 18 gph in my bravo at cruise.  This week @Deb was gracious enough to give me a ride back from the avionics shop in their extremely nice ovation burning 12.3 gph at 170 TAS.  If I climb very high, I’ll close some of that efficiency gap, but the IO-550 fuel burn sure does feel nice on quicker trips.

[carusoam]

9 hours ago, Frank B. said:

I would love to hear the numbers and see a photo of a Mooney with a P&W PT6A-42A. Now that dude would have to be a real screamer. Please share more info.

Oops... my bad, some clarification is in order...

MSer... a person on MooneySpace.

Some MSers come to learn about Mooneys... the machine

They stay to learn more about  Mooneys... the act of flying across all types of borders...

They hang out after the Mooney is gone... for the lifestyle???

 

We (MS) have two MSers that have recently graduated from Mooneys to join the turbine world...

One has been building a Lancair IVPT for decades, while flying a Mooney/Rocket Engineering Rocket...

the other recently purchased the Piper/Rocket Engineering P46T... After flying an O3(?)...

Some of the most interesting Mooneys have a Rocket Engineering twist in their DNA...

Mooney started a relationship with RR to install their small turbine in the Long Body... the great recession had already begun before the paperwork was signed...

Going turbine has additional costs to go with that decision... one of them is insurance.   The initial investment in the hardware is inline with what you get, including the longevity and speed... the one cost that stands out is the insurance which can be a bit more than 2X...

Call Rocket Engineering.... I bet we can convince them to put P&W PT6 on the front of a Long Body Mooney... 

I could learn to love an O2 hose... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Bravoman]

On 6/26/2019 at 2:48 PM, Danb said:

I couldn’t agree with you more Fernando precisely why I have a Bravo instead of a  Columbia 400 or TTX, Acclaims we’re not out yet when I purchased my plane 

What he said!

[alextstone]

8 hours ago, Davidv said:

Fuel efficiency is a difference as others have pointed out because many people with the TIO-540 won’t run lean of peak because it’s too risky with our temps. 

What do you mean by this statement?  I run my Bravo LOP and my experience is that it runs smoothly all the way to starvation on the lean side of peak and I am cruising at 29"/2400RPM/14GPH while showing <1600 deg TIT and the hottest cylinder at just shy of 380 degrees.  When I run ROP, the CHT's are higher by 20+ degrees at the same settings and I have to add more fuel to about 100 deg ROP to keep the TIT below 1600 degrees.

My GAMI spread is not great yet either (0.8 GPH as of the last nozzle swap).  I'm working with John-Paul and Savvy Aviation to dial this in.

Is my experience unique?  If so, why?  

[Davidv]

Alex, I had just said “many” people, especially people like me who don’t have the latest and greatest engine monitor (only a lowly EDM-700).  I’m not smart enough to get into a ROP vs. LOP discussion, but I know it varies aircraft to aircraft and person to person.  I don’t have GAMIs on mine, for example.  Over the years it looks like there has been a discussion in the threads about this and it could just be conservatism or some real other reasons. 

[Fernando Paez]

Thank you Guys for all of your feedback. 

I use to run the PA46 that I sold with 350 hp at 30"/2400 rpm/21 gph showing 1550° of TIT and the hottest cylinder shy of 360°.

It had 1100 hours and great compressions. Great smooth engine started on a dime. 

Like I said, big fan of Mooney.

I was actually at the plant this last April when I went for a plant tour and to see Acclaim N63PA which is on sale.

They had 76CM ready to go at the door. Beautiful airplane. Pilot is in his 50's like me and I read it was registered on June 6 (my birthday).

Being a pilot he surely is a fighter and Iam positive he will make it through this difficult experience and get well soon. My prayers are with the Him and his Family. 

 

[mike_elliott]

15 hours ago, Niko182 said:

I think once hartzell comes out with the acclaim prop for the bravo, you should be able to get 5 to 10 knots of a speed increase

THIS! Look for this to happen soon. Rumor has it their is a Bravo in Piqua OH