Jump to content

M20C long range preferred settings


Recommended Posts

Hello Guys

I'm planning for a long x-country flight from SoCal to Alaska, I have 68 M20C (2 blades propeller) since last December and I have more than 100 hours in the mooney , I want to ask those of you who fly long distance and have fuel flowmeters, what is the max range that you feel comfortable to fly nonstop in your mooney m20c (52 gallons) in calm winds and 300lbs under gross weight (2 adults onboard), and at what settings(RPM&MP and °F rich of peak) and at what altitude gives you the highest MPGs. 

Also do you believe I can fly from Seattle to Ketchikan (540nm) without need to stop for fuel in Canada or shall I plan to stop in Canada. 

Appreciating your kind inputs and any advise would be highly appreciated. 

Edited by Janat83
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a 64 mooney M20c and my personal minimums are 3.5 hours, then I land somewhere fuel up, plane, body, and rest for a short bit, gives me a chance to also look at the next leg with a different perspective, 3.5 will get you far, as for going straight from the US to Ketchikan, I have met a few Mooney drivers coming through my airport for last fuel up before crossing Canada. Personally for me, I would stop on the northern tip of Vancouver Island, before flying over the remainder of that busy wild between there and Ketchikan, not too many outs from that point on. Just my opinion, I would like to hear how your trip goes if you do not mind?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The weather in SE Alaska can change rapidly. I think in a C without LR tanks the reserve amount after a missed approach would not be enough to reach a safe alternative. The trip will be amazing, I’ve done it twice and I’m counting the days until my oldest is ready for the adventure. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a 64 mooney M20c and my personal minimums are 3.5 hours, then I land somewhere fuel up, plane, body, and rest for a short bit, gives me a chance to also look at the next leg with a different perspective, 3.5 will get you far, as for going straight from the US to Ketchikan, I have met a few Mooney drivers coming through my airport for last fuel up before crossing Canada. Personally for me, I would stop on the northern tip of Vancouver Island, before flying over the remainder of that busy wild between there and Ketchikan, not too many outs from that point on. Just my opinion, I would like to hear how your trip goes if you do not mind?
Appreciate your thoughts, I'll make a detailed post once I'm done with that trip, also I got a fuel flow meter and hopefully my mechanic will install it before I go, I'm asking just for planning ahead

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you avg 135 knots, you're exactly 4 hrs, but 30 minutes of fuel for vfr alternate or 45 for IFR puts you at 4.5-4.75 hours of fuel. That doesn't leave a whole lot for headwinds or deviations. Personally, I'd stop along the way and refuel. I have no experience flying in the NW, but I've always felt the weather can change quickly.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, M20C_AV8R said:

I have a 64 mooney M20c and my personal minimums are 3.5 hours, then I land somewhere fuel up, plane, body, and rest for a short bit, gives me a chance to also look at the next leg with a different perspective, 

Mine too, no matter what the airplane. I've flow airplanes with 7 hours usable fuel but still plan my stops about three hours apart.

My other planning minimum is to use the worst fuel burn in the chart. With a 1 hour reserve, I've found that it gives me plenty of options from unexpected headwinds to my own failure to lean properly.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We just flew from SoCal to NC and one day did two 3 1/2 hour legs. I have decided that about a three hour leg is the sweet spot as far as when I want to get out and stretch, as well as be fresh for the approach and landing. If I had an auto-pilot I might feel differently. At 9,500' we were burning about 9.5 gph, 2,500 rpm and as much MP as it would give with the throttle backed off just far enough to change the MP.  With 52 gallons on board (49 useable) that gives me right at four hours with my personal minimum of one hour reserve. 

My bigger concern would be flying a route with more options for putting down off airport. This is a flight I am planning to make in the next few years and I will probably follow the Alcan highway or 'the trench.' We lived there from 80-84' when my dad was flying HC-130's with the Air Rescue Squadron out of Elmendorf. He has lots of stories about going after downed planes, some with good endings and more with bad endings. Giving myself the best chance at a good ending to a bad situation will dictate the route I take when I finally get to make the trip. 

FYI, there's another guy that made that trip and documented it, worth reading if you haven't yet. 

http://redfeatherpilot.blogspot.com/2011/09/so-begins-northbound-odyssey.html?m=1

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The longest leg I ever did in my C was 738.5 nautical miles. I landed with one tank completely dry and the other tank was... low. I was very comfortable with the flight... because...

  • I had almost 400 hours in the plane with the Insight G2 showing fuel flow, gal remaining, time to empty, etc. And so I knew from many hours of experience, to less than half a gallon, how much fuel I had at all times.
  • It was summer time and mostly VFR. There was one storm with a couple of big cells over Kansas, but easy to see and avoid.
  • The route was MSN to FWS so flat fields and pastures the whole way. Landing options everywhere.
  • The last hour of the flight was over the DFW metroplex with airports every couple of miles, clear VFR weather.

In other words, very much unlike the coast of BC and Alaska. The C can do it, but I wouldn't do it in a "new to me" airplane, nor with a newly installed fuel flow instrument.

I was at 12,000 or 12,500 the whole way burning between 6.5 and 7.5 gph.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My C is good for 4:45 with an hour's fuel left over, but I'm well ready to get out and stand up. I generally travel 7500-10,000 msl, WOT-/2500.

Don't think of distance, just time. I've had cruising speeds from 68-186 knots. So distance always depends on the wind. So be prepared to stop, and glad if you don't have to. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The longest leg I ever did in my C was 738.5 nautical miles. I landed with one tank completely dry and the other tank was... low. I was very comfortable with the flight... because...
  • I had almost 400 hours in the plane with the Insight G2 showing fuel flow, gal remaining, time to empty, etc. And so I knew from many hours of experience, to less than half a gallon, how much fuel I had at all times.
  • It was summer time and mostly VFR. There was one storm with a couple of big cells over Kansas, but easy to see and avoid.
  • The route was MSN to FWS so flat fields and pastures the whole way. Landing options everywhere.
  • The last hour of the flight was over the DFW metroplex with airports every couple of miles, clear VFR weather.
In other words, very much unlike the coast of BC and Alaska. The C can do it, but I wouldn't do it in a "new to me" airplane, nor with a newly installed fuel flow instrument.
I was at 12,000 or 12,500 the whole way burning between 6.5 and 7.5 gph.
Thanks for sharing your experience
I totally agree with you, I flew my mooney for 2000nm with 5 legs of 400 nm and 3.5 hrs avergae, and I did a lot of x-country flight since I bought it, but it wasn't in that part of the country (BC or AK) as you mentioned , I'm so happy to see what other people's thoughts about flying that distance in that part of the country
What was your power settings and how do you lean the mixture in this case.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We just flew from SoCal to NC and one day did two 3 1/2 hour legs. I have decided that about a three hour leg is the sweet spot as far as when I want to get out and stretch, as well as be fresh for the approach and landing. If I had an auto-pilot I might feel differently. At 9,500' we were burning about 9.5 gph, 2,500 rpm and as much MP as it would give with the throttle backed off just far enough to change the MP.  With 52 gallons on board (49 useable) that gives me right at four hours with my personal minimum of one hour reserve. 
My bigger concern would be flying a route with more options for putting down off airport. This is a flight I am planning to make in the next few years and I will probably follow the Alcan highway or 'the trench.' We lived there from 80-84' when my dad was flying HC-130's with the Air Rescue Squadron out of Elmendorf. He has lots of stories about going after downed planes, some with good endings and more with bad endings. Giving myself the best chance at a good ending to a bad situation will dictate the route I take when I finally get to make the trip. 
FYI, there's another guy that made that trip and documented it, worth reading if you haven't yet. 
http://redfeatherpilot.blogspot.com/2011/09/so-begins-northbound-odyssey.html?m=1
Thanks for sharing your experience and advice, I agree that 3 hrs is my sweet spot too to sit in such a tight airplane with no room to bend your knees

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

The longest leg I ever did in my C was 738.5 nautical miles. I landed with one tank completely dry and the other tank was... low. I was very comfortable with the flight... because...

  • I had almost 400 hours in the plane with the Insight G2 showing fuel flow, gal remaining, time to empty, etc. And so I knew from many hours of experience, to less than half a gallon, how much fuel I had at all times.
  • It was summer time and mostly VFR. There was one storm with a couple of big cells over Kansas, but easy to see and avoid.
  • The route was MSN to FWS so flat fields and pastures the whole way. Landing options everywhere.
  • The last hour of the flight was over the DFW metroplex with airports every couple of miles, clear VFR weather.

In other words, very much unlike the coast of BC and Alaska. The C can do it, but I wouldn't do it in a "new to me" airplane, nor with a newly installed fuel flow instrument.

I was at 12,000 or 12,500 the whole way burning between 6.5 and 7.5 gph.

when you run a tank dry, does it start to stumble and you simply switch tanks?  I didn't know if the carburetor would have any objections.  I've always left a few gallons b/c I was worried about going completely dry just in case that was a bad idea.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, rbridges said:

when you run a tank dry, does it start to stumble and you simply switch tanks?  I didn't know if the carburetor would have any objections.  I've always left a few gallons b/c I was worried about going completely dry just in case that was a bad idea.

If you catch it when you see the fuel pressure dropping it never even stumbles. If you don't notice and the engine quits once you switch tanks it comes right back up. 

One thing I learned, if you run a tank dry to the point of the engine stopping, that line is empty until you run off it again. I know that sounds like a simple thing to say. I ran the rh tank dry once, to the point of the engine stopping. Fueled up and started on the lh tank. Went r switch to the rh tank in flight and my fuel flow started dropping. I switched back to lh, thought about it for a few minutes and went back to the rh tank where all was good. Realized that it was because the line was still empty from before. Now if I run it all the way dry I will start on that tank so the line fills when I'm starting up. 

Edit: Having the carb actually helps because it gives you a few seconds of cushion to switch tanks when you notice the pressure dropping because there's still fuel in the bowl. It doesn't just drop, you will see the pressure just steadily falling. If you're paying attention your passengers will never even know. 

Edited by Skates97
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’ve done it as a matter of fact we did our first trip in the airplane after new avionics to SE Alaska. We flew from Camarillo CMA to LMT Klamath Falls 3:40. (if your interested in cheap fuel BDN has great price. That would require a stop prior at half way to be comfortable).We then had a trip out of BFI in a business jet for a few days. On return to Seattle we flew up to Orcas Island Eastsound KORS for fabulous lunch. Nice walk off the airport to the trail south on a path into town. Many fine places to fuel your tummy. Nice flight to check into Customs in Canada using CANPASS in Nanaimo BC. We then flew up to Terrace BC CYXT we took an overnight there. Next day we flew out the beautiful fjords and up to Juneau for customs and lunch but too many tourists. So we departed to Gustavus stayed at Gustavus Inn which is a James Baird awarded restaurant and inn. We had a wonderful time sightseeing and kayaking in Glaicer Bay. On our return we flew down to Ketchican and spent the night. We met a couple fro Germany that was just returning from the North slope in a 182. We had dinner together and shared great hangar banter. Leaving Ketchican we had a little help from Mother Nature and 3:40 to PAE Everett WA no custom stop this time. We were not really pressed for time but after a fuel stop in Redding CA our home and bed was calling us back to Malibu. Another fun adventure with not a hitch. M20C N611BR


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, rbridges said:

when you run a tank dry, does it start to stumble and you simply switch tanks?  I didn't know if the carburetor would have any objections.  I've always left a few gallons b/c I was worried about going completely dry just in case that was a bad idea.

Yep, it's a non-event. In fact, the carb O360 restarts quicker then my TSIO360 does. 

I like to watch the fuel meter and anticipate when it will run dry. One of the benefits of this. exercise is to validate that you KNOW exactly how much fuel you have at all times and therefore should be able to predict when the engine starts to stumble. Quickly switch tanks and you're back and running. On landing, immediately top that tank off to verify and note the ACTUAL useable fuel. I then switch to that tank so the next start is on that tank ensuring the lines are filled.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have an F and I will push to absolute minimums where I have options.  When you are talking long distance with no options then I would get a lot more conservative. 

I am willing to crash for a lot of reasons but running out of gas would not be one of them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I flew PEQ-DVT today. Winds were awful. Just short of 4 hours in the air. 48 gallon tanks.  I landed with 14 gallons. I know I average about 8.5gph in cruise. I plan for 9.5.  566 miles
Nice, what was your altitude and how do you lean the mixture, do you fly at max EGT or - 100° on the ri her side?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’d think of the distances between search and rescue stations.  Canada has a small Airforce and even smaller SAR capabilities to cover a huge land mass.  Stopping in Canada is made very simple with Canpass, much easier than US Customs.

Clarence

Link to comment
Share on other sites

M20C experience with original gauges only... no FF or totalizer... fuzzy accuracy of the fuel level indicators at best...

Portable oximeters and other technologies were not available at the time....

1) All the data given by MSers above is good.

2) Just need to prove that your plane is really following the Mooney standards...

3) my tanks had 52 gallons useable. Burned 10gph in cruise, about 15 gph in climb... a few gallons different in descent... no need to expect to use more accuracy than that without better instrumentation...

4) prove to yourself how many gallons you really have, total.

5) prove to yourself how many gph you use in climb.

6) prove to yourself how many gph you use in cruise.

7) prove to yourself both tanks actually empty completely when using the inflight tank change... expect two different flights to test this one... :) See how well your fuel gauges are actually working...

8) FF is very sensitive to your leaning procedure.  If you goof it up, it is hardly noticeable... other than the silence that accompanies it... at the end of the flight.

9) These are guidelines that come from MSers that are often given to new plane owners... part of getting to know your new 2U plane...

10) Don’t trust any of your fuel numbers until you have proven them to yourself...

52 gallons...

  • climb on one tank, switch...
  • cruise for an hour, switch...
  • cruise another hour, switch... 
  • ...

keep good fuel usage notes at every touch of the valve...

Two hours of cruising on one tank...

A climb and an hour of cruise on the other...

Crummy fuel gauges...

All of this combined, left me uneasy enough to not want to go much further without stopping to stick the tank...

You do have a calibrated stick, right?  To go with your SPOT satellite locator device?

This is from flying up and down the east coast with an airport just about every 25nm... (I didn’t have a Spotify a cell phone for much of a decade)

Getting a FF gauge is magical, when proven to be calibrated.  Having a totalizer function is even better... when your memory lets you down...

To get a feel for how important this is in the vast area of expected flight... Somebody was looking for a lost Mooney in the west end of Canada... it took about six months to show up, very close to its expected position, very close to the highway... there is an uneasy thread around here for that...

Cruising... 11-12.5 k’ msl.... preferred cruise altitudes in my NA Mooneys... Best glide distance, when the noise maker doesn’t...not requiring any O2, but use an oximeter because you can. Near wide open throttle, to close the auto-enrich nozzle...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI... I don’t miss the un-instrumented days at all...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Janat83 said:

Nice, what was your altitude and how do you lean the mixture, do you fly at max EGT or - 100° on the ri her side?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
 

8500.  Normally I'd be higher, but the winds were even worse up at 10,500.  I usually run 80-100 ROP.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17"/1800 RPM.  Go Skyhawk speeds, burn ultralight gas.  I myself wouldn't push it that hard without good gauges or fuel gizmo.
My engine doesn't like that power settings , the engine won't be as smooth as 2300rpm

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, steingar said:

17"/1800 RPM.  Go Skyhawk speeds, burn ultralight gas.  I myself wouldn't push it that hard without good gauges or fuel gizmo.

My Go-Slow power is 2300 and whatever MP gives the desired slowness. ~17" yields 90 KIAS (105mph) clean, if hanging back with Skyhawks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The longest flight I did in a 63C with 48 gallon tanks was 528 NM. It was comfortable and there was plenty of reserve.   My standard procedure was to run 2500 rpm and lean until rough and then just enrich until smooth.  That was usually about 9.5 gph at 8500 feet average fuel flow.   I would run on one tank for an hour, then switch tanks and run that tank until dry.  You would have a pretty good idea how long you had left on the first tank from the second tank time minus one hour.  

With my F, I have a Fuel Scan 450 which make me much more confident of how much fuel I have on board.  With 54 gallons I have closer to 5:45 minutes fuel or about 695 nm range with reserve.   A 52 gallon C at average of 9.5 gph and 135 knots with 45 minute reserve should be good for a no wind 640 nm flight of 4:45 minutes.  The flight you planned should take 4:00 hours, so you should have 1:30 reserve. 

Looks very doable, but as always have alternates planed and make sure your reserve can reach an airport with fuel and good weather.  

One last thought, why not fuel up at the closest airport rather than plan from Seattle area?  I assume you can get closer to 510 nm from some of the airports near the boarder.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.