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Near miss in traffic pattern


jcovington

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Pattern traffic has right of way.  He was there first, and he was at a lower altitude.  You enter a traffic pattern its up to you to make certain there are no aircraft there.  it isn't up to a student pilot in a trainer aircraft to "figure out" how fast another airplane is.  And no one in a Warrior can look out behind them.  This conflict was 100% the fault the OP, and since he hasn't leaned even one damn thing from it such a conflict could easily happen again.  It's called see and avoid for a reason.

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30 minutes ago, jcovington said:

Perhaps I am naive but then why do we have recommendations published for our use? When I am mixing with other traffic in the pattern I try to be both polite and safe. Sometimes I need to speed up and sometimes I need to slow down. I expected the speed to give me separation and to not interfere with the Warrior pattern. I was wrong in this case.

I don't see how to have a visual on traffic at all times in the pattern. You have to depend somewhat on situational awareness of what the traffic is doing. I was definitely looking for him just apparently not in the right place. When I was established on downwind the Warrior was low and to my right. Very much a blind spot for me. Keep in mind that the conflict occurred about mid-field downwind. I had been established for a while and was in clear sight of the Warrior.

I did not descend into the pattern. I was at pattern altitude on the 45 entry. I was slowing to put the gear out on the 45 so it was fairly quick. The Warrior was climbing on crosswind so he was below and to the right. The Warrior continued to climb after turning downwind. I could tell since I had a front row seat :).

I never spoke to the student. My conversation was with the CFI. I was not inclined to apologize since the turn from crosswind to downwind was too close to another aircraft and should not have been performed. That turn is my biggest problem with the encounter.

I don't mean to imply you're a bad pilot or anything, I just believe that the see and avoid published recommendation puts the responsibility squarely on me, and never on the other pilot.. And anytime I get close to an airplane I didn't see, it's my fault, not the other guy's. 

Perhaps I am naive but then why do we have recommendations published for our use? They're just recommendations and obviously interpreted many different ways, just like we're debating it here.

When I am mixing with other traffic in the pattern I try to be both polite and safe. Sometimes I need to speed up and sometimes I need to slow down. I expected the speed to give me separation and to not interfere with the Warrior pattern. I was wrong in this case. - An easy mistake to make and thus the recommendation to have a visual (see and avoid) on the other traffic.

I don't see how to have a visual on traffic at all times in the pattern. You have to depend somewhat on situational awareness of what the traffic is doing. I was definitely looking for him just apparently not in the right place. When I was established on downwind the Warrior was low and to my right. Very much a blind spot for me. Keep in mind that the conflict occurred about mid-field downwind. I had been established for a while and was in clear sight of the Warrior. - It's always a dangerous assumption to think the other guy sees you. Every near miss that happens, and they happen all the time is because we didn't see... the other guy.

I did not descend into the pattern. I was at pattern altitude on the 45 entry. Sorry, my misunderstanding.

I was slowing to put the gear out on the 45 so it was fairly quick. The Warrior was climbing on crosswind so he was below and to the right. The Warrior continued to climb after turning downwind. I could tell since I had a front row seat :). - But you didn't see him? I'm confused by this statement. Either you saw him climbing in the downwind, or you didn't see him. Either way, we all know it's very difficult to judge motion of other airplanes in the sky, especially when on a closing course.

I never spoke to the student. My conversation was with the CFI. I was not inclined to apologize since the turn from crosswind to downwind was too close to another aircraft and should not have been performed. That turn is my biggest problem with the encounter. - Unless you have his GPS track overlaid on your GPS track, you really can't know. He didn't see you and you didn't see him until you were both dangerously close. I'll give the other guy the benefit of the doubt and say that I shouldn't have made so many assumptions, and should have followed the published recommendation to see and avoid.

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14 minutes ago, steingar said:

Pattern traffic has right of way.  He was there first, and he was at a lower altitude.  You enter a traffic pattern its up to you to make certain there are no aircraft there.  it isn't up to a student pilot in a trainer aircraft to "figure out" how fast another airplane is.  And no one in a Warrior can look out behind them.  This conflict was 100% the fault the OP, and since he hasn't leaned even one damn thing from it such a conflict could easily happen again.  It's called see and avoid for a reason.

You are misunderstanding the locations of the airplane. The Warrior was on crosswind and I was on downwind. The Warrior came from low and right at a couple hundred feet and turned to downwind in front of me to continue his climb. He had me in sight as evidenced by his call asking if I had him in sight. I did not have him in sight since he was low and to my right so blocked by the fuselage. Trust me regardless of who had right away if I had seen him I would have broken off the pattern. As soon as the Warrior turned in front of me I broke off and reentered the pattern behind the Warrior. The Warrior never deviated from his pattern and pretty much ignored the conflict.

I never said that I expected the student pilot to figure out how fast I was going. I asked the CFI if he realized how fast I was going. My intention of carrying extra speed was to avoid a conflict. It never entered my mind that the CFI/student would turn downwind approximately midfield. Now I know. See, I am learning :).

Why do you feel that the Warrior did not share the see and avoid responsibility? I am certain he saw be based on his radio call and the CFI comments after the fact.

Jim

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14 hours ago, jcovington said:

At the 4 nm on the 45 entry call the Warrior was just lifting off for the next circuit.

So you saw him at that point?

Regardless, you were 2 minutes away from your turn.  How long does it take for a Warrior to get to the downwind given his speed and location?  Maybe 2 minutes?  Seems to me you were both heading for the same place and scheduled to arrive at the same time.  Obliviousness on both your parts.

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If I'm doing pattern work, I'm always either just departing or just arriving. Just because my distance between takeoff and landing is less than your cross country is not material.

It is because pattern can only safely handle so many aircraft.
By clogging up the arriving and departing traffic effectively adding more aircraft to the airspace, making it more dangerous for everyone.
At every towered airport I have been to, pattern traffic gives way to cross country traffic.


Tom
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51 minutes ago, jcovington said:

Perhaps I am naive but then why do we have recommendations published for our use? When I am mixing with other traffic in the pattern I try to be both polite and safe. Sometimes I need to speed up and sometimes I need to slow down. I expected the speed to give me separation and to not interfere with the Warrior pattern. I was wrong in this case.

I don't see how to have a visual on traffic at all times in the pattern. You have to depend somewhat on situational awareness of what the traffic is doing. I was definitely looking for him just apparently not in the right place. When I was established on downwind the Warrior was low and to my right. Very much a blind spot for me. Keep in mind that the conflict occurred about mid-field downwind. I had been established for a while and was in clear sight of the Warrior.

I did not descend into the pattern. I was at pattern altitude on the 45 entry. I was slowing to put the gear out on the 45 so it was fairly quick. The Warrior was climbing on crosswind so he was below and to the right. The Warrior continued to climb after turning downwind. I could tell since I had a front row seat :).

I never spoke to the student. My conversation was with the CFI. I was not inclined to apologize since the turn from crosswind to downwind was too close to another aircraft and should not have been performed. That turn is my biggest problem with the encounter.

Jim

Because if you will note how wide or narrow people fly the pattern is very different.   We have a house under the threshold to a popular lunch destination.   It is comical to listen to the position reports and then see where the plane actually is.    Based on the where the Cessna's usually fly downwind just inside of where the jets fly downwind and were I fly downwind a 1/4 mile inside the Cessnas it is all important to know.   You would be amazed how many people don't know how close or far away they are from the airport.

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18 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I was slowing to put the gear out on the 45 so it was fairly quick. The Warrior was climbing on crosswind so he was below and to the right. The Warrior continued to climb after turning downwind. I could tell since I had a front row seat :). - But you didn't see him? I'm confused by this statement. Either you saw him climbing in the downwind, or you didn't see him. Either way, we all know it's very difficult to judge motion of other airplanes in the sky, especially when on a closing course.

I did not see the Warrior on crosswind as I was looking in the wrong place and later he was blocked by the fuselage. I saw him just before he turned to downwind and for a few seconds on downwind as he continued to climb. As soon as I spotted him I turned to the left (right downwind for 36) so my visibility of the Warrior was a short period on crosswind  (< 2 seconds) and a couple of seconds on downwind while I made the avoidance turn.

The two planes were very close. I am pretty sure it qualified as a formation flight :).

Jim

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3 minutes ago, jcovington said:

I did not see the Warrior on crosswind as I was looking in the wrong place and later he was blocked by the fuselage. I saw him just before he turned to downwind and for a few seconds on downwind as he continued to climb. As soon as I spotted him I turned to the left (right downwind for 36) so my visibility of the Warrior was a short period on crosswind  (< 2 seconds) and a couple of seconds on downwind while I made the avoidance turn.

The two planes were very close. I am pretty sure it qualified as a formation flight :).

Got it, makes sense. 

If only there was prior agreement between the two of you, you could have logged it as formation time. :lol:

 

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5 minutes ago, Ah-1 Cobra Pilot said:

So you saw him at that point?

Regardless, you were 2 minutes away from your turn.  How long does it take for a Warrior to get to the downwind given his speed and location?  Maybe 2 minutes?  Seems to me you were both heading for the same place and scheduled to arrive at the same time.  Obliviousness on both your parts.

No, I did not see him at this point when I made the 45 entry. I was not looking far enough down the runway to spot him.

You are correct. Both planes would take about 2 minutes to close the distance. I did not think we were heading for the same position as I assumed  his upwind would be longer. A normal pattern (yes, I know that doesn't really exist) would be crosswind traffic behind the 45 entry traffic turning to downwind. I though by keeping my speed up I was avoiding a conflict. I was wrong. However, in 20 years of flying I haven't encountered a plane turning crosswind to downwind at midfield. Now I have. I won't make that mistake again.

Jim

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53 minutes ago, jcovington said:

Perhaps I am naive but then why do we have recommendations published for our use? When I am mixing with other traffic in the pattern I try to be both polite and safe. Sometimes I need to speed up and sometimes I need to slow down. I expected the speed to give me separation and to not interfere with the Warrior pattern. I was wrong in this case.

I don't see how to have a visual on traffic at all times in the pattern. You have to depend somewhat on situational awareness of what the traffic is doing. I was definitely looking for him just apparently not in the right place. When I was established on downwind the Warrior was low and to my right. Very much a blind spot for me. Keep in mind that the conflict occurred about mid-field downwind. I had been established for a while and was in clear sight of the Warrior.

I did not descend into the pattern. I was at pattern altitude on the 45 entry. I was slowing to put the gear out on the 45 so it was fairly quick. The Warrior was climbing on crosswind so he was below and to the right. The Warrior continued to climb after turning downwind. I could tell since I had a front row seat :).

I never spoke to the student. My conversation was with the CFI. I was not inclined to apologize since the turn from crosswind to downwind was too close to another aircraft and should not have been performed. That turn is my biggest problem with the encounter.

Jim

I understand your actions and thinking completely and I think it could have happened to anyone.  However, I am confused about how he ended up to your right undetected while you were on a left downwind. If he turned left crosswind from departure he should have been to your left between you and the airport.  To be where you said he was, he needed to cross in front of you from left to right and then make a left turn same direction climbing under your right wing.  Seems unlikely a warrior could turn from departure and fly a climbing crosswind in your blind spot then turn same direction and still be in front of you.  Either he was JATO assisted or you took your eyes off of him or I am confused about the event (scenarios listed in order of likelihood).  

With regard to FAR/AIM we have guidelines because they are more appropriate in some cases than regulations.  Lots of variances from small airport to small airport, those variances are best dealt with locally, without needless federal involvement.  In this case, the CFI conducted operations in a way that was legal but inconsiderate, likely stupid and dangerous.  Those making the point about others interpretations of the FAR/AIM are merely pointing out that the only actions you can count on are your own. This is the case in any vehicle that shares space with other operators.

 

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2 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I understand your actions and thinking completely and I think it could have happened to anyone.  However, I am confused about how he ended up to your right undetected while you were on a left downwind. If he turned left crosswind from departure he should have been to your left between you and the airport.  To be where you said he was, he needed to cross in front of you from left to right and then make a left turn same direction climbing under your right wing.  Seems unlikely a warrior could turn from departure and fly a climbing crosswind in your blind spot then turn same direction and still be in front of you.  Either he was JATO assisted or you took your eyes off of him or I am confused about the event (scenarios listed in order of likelihood).  

The traffic pattern is right traffic for 36 at KMDQ. He was in a right crosswind while I was in a right downwind. That puts him low and right which is a difficult place to see. The Warrior did a very short upwind and I am guessing was aimed in the downwind direction so he would be able to turn in front of me. The wind was about 15 kts out of the north so I am sure that contributed to the Warrior making his crosswind to downwind turn about midfield. He continued to make a long downwind, normal base and long final before the next touch and go. His wind compensation wasn't very good but not abnormal for a student pilot.

Jim

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2 minutes ago, jcovington said:

The traffic pattern is right traffic for 36 at KMDQ. He was in a right crosswind while I was in a right downwind. That puts him low and right which is a difficult place to see. The Warrior did a very short upwind and I am guessing was aimed in the downwind direction so he would be able to turn in front of me. The wind was about 15 kts out of the north so I am sure that contributed to the Warrior making his crosswind to downwind turn about midfield. He continued to make a long downwind, normal base and long final before the next touch and go. His wind compensation wasn't very good but not abnormal for a student pilot.

Jim

Like I said, scenarios listed in order of likelihood...:D I could have checked but I am lazy.

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25 minutes ago, jcovington said:

You are correct. Both planes would take about 2 minutes to close the distance. I did not think we were heading for the same position as I assumed  his upwind would be longer. A normal pattern (yes, I know that doesn't really exist) would be crosswind traffic behind the 45 entry traffic turning to downwind. I though by keeping my speed up I was avoiding a conflict. I was wrong. However, in 20 years of flying I haven't encountered a plane turning crosswind to downwind at midfield. Now I have. I won't make that mistake again.

Jim

I am glad you started this thread.  It gives all of us a good lesson in situational awareness.

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35 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

It is because pattern can only safely handle so many aircraft.
By clogging up the arriving and departing traffic effectively adding more aircraft to the airspace, making it more dangerous for everyone.
At every towered airport I have been to, pattern traffic gives way to cross country traffic.

This can make sense if there is a tower who is seeing and controlling all the aircraft in the vicinity of the airport. 

But without a tower, it's up to the pilots to manage the airspace and maintain separation. An airplane arriving from outside the pattern would naturally have a larger (big picture) view of the situation in the pattern. The airplane arriving also has more flexibility to use airspace to give way to pattern traffic. Should an airplane in the pattern, effectively depart the pattern to allow someone else to join the pattern? 

When under tower control, you'll often hear the tower tell someone in the pattern to extend their downwind and tower will call the base turn. That's easy when the tower knows the speed, position, and time to arrival of the inbound aircraft. But for a Cherokee in the pattern, it's virtually impossible to know how far to extend that downwind based on the inbound aircraft radio calls. Especially if the plane in the pattern can't see the arriving plane in the distance. 

I still maintain, and believe the official "recommendations" back up the idea that arriving traffic should have the responsibility to merge with and fit in with traffic in the pattern.

But regardless, the only pilot, who's actions I can control, is ME. So when it's my airplane/life/family on the line, I'll control MY actions and assume the other guy can't see me, doesn't hear me, is a student pilot, is an idiot, or other wise incompetent. If I ensure I "see and avoid", there can't be any problem.

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7 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I disagree with pattern traffic has the right of way.
Landing traffic has the right of way. If you doing pattern work, you need to give way to inbound landing traffic. That’s how it works at every towered airport I’ve been to. Non towered should be the same.

Just to clarify, right-of-way rules are regulatory and specified in 91.113. 

There is no right-of-way rule specifying that landing or pattern traffic has any relevance to right-of-way rules.  Whether either is appropriate or recommended is a completely different question.

The obligation to "see and avoid" is specified in 91.113 as well.

Now that I know @jcovington was talking about right traffic, it's not entirely clear to me who has the right of way.  Based on the converging rules, the Warrior would have had the ROW based on being to the right.  However, if the Warrior was able to see the approaching aircraft and not vice versa, one could argue the Warrior failed to comply with the obligation to see and avoid.

The landing ROW rule that the lower aircraft has ROW refers to aircraft that are on final approach or landing.  I interpret that as not applying to this situation--neither aircraft are actually descending for landing, and one was actually climbing.  I think simply being in the pattern does not qualify as "approaching the airport for landing."  Otherwise, you could just fly your entire pattern 50 feet lower than everyone else and have the right of way over everyone ahead of you.

 

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1 hour ago, jcovington said:

The two planes were very close. I am pretty sure it qualified as a formation flight :).

Jim

This gives me the willies...seriously. When you said 50ft I assumed a measure of hyperbole. If it really was that close you are very lucky! 

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13 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Just to clarify, right-of-way rules are regulatory and specified in 91.113. 

There is no right-of-way rule specifying that landing or pattern traffic has any relevance to right-of-way rules.  Whether either is appropriate or recommended is a completely different question.

The obligation to "see and avoid" is specified in 91.113 as well.

Now that I know @jcovington was talking about right traffic, it's not entirely clear to me who has the right of way.  Based on the converging rules, the Warrior would have had the ROW based on being to the right.  However, if the Warrior was able to see the approaching aircraft and not vice versa, one could argue the Warrior failed to comply with the obligation to see and avoid.

The landing ROW rule that the lower aircraft has ROW refers to aircraft that are on final approach or landing.  I interpret that as not applying to this situation--neither aircraft are actually descending for landing, and one was actually climbing.  I think simply being in the pattern does not qualify as "approaching the airport for landing."  Otherwise, you could just fly your entire pattern 50 feet lower than everyone else and have the right of way over everyone ahead of you.

 

I don't think the Cessna saw him.  Both aircraft had the wings partially blocking the view of the other's flight track.

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2 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I thought it was a Piper Warrior?

That was @jcovington 's belief, that the Warrior did see him based on his radio call

It was a Warrior so the wing was not blocking his view as I was above until he turned downwind. The CFI's comment and the Warrior radio calls indicate that they had us in sight and did not maneuver to avoid. I believe that the CFI felt he had right of way and wasn't going to give. He may have mistakenly believed we had him in sight and should be giving way (I would if I had seen him). Before downwind I was looking in the wrong place for the Warrior. After entering downwind the Warrior was hidden by the fuselage and I couldn't see them.

Jim

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2 hours ago, jcovington said:

You are misunderstanding the locations of the airplane. The Warrior was on crosswind and I was on downwind. The Warrior came from low and right at a couple hundred feet and turned to downwind in front of me to continue his climb. He had me in sight as evidenced by his call asking if I had him in sight. I did not have him in sight since he was low and to my right so blocked by the fuselage. Trust me regardless of who had right away if I had seen him I would have broken off the pattern. As soon as the Warrior turned in front of me I broke off and reentered the pattern behind the Warrior. The Warrior never deviated from his pattern and pretty much ignored the conflict.

I never said that I expected the student pilot to figure out how fast I was going. I asked the CFI if he realized how fast I was going. My intention of carrying extra speed was to avoid a conflict. It never entered my mind that the CFI/student would turn downwind approximately midfield. Now I know. See, I am learning :).

Why do you feel that the Warrior did not share the see and avoid responsibility? I am certain he saw be based on his radio call and the CFI comments after the fact.

Jim

How do you now he saw you?  He could have made that inquiry based on your radio calls. You were on frequency announcing your  intentions, right?  He was in the vicinity, you knew he was there, but you didn't see him.  Were that me I'd have broken off my approach, headed the other way and not approached again until I saw the guy.  I did this very thing in a similar situation just a few weeks ago.  Didn't have to come back here to report a close encounter.

The CFI's job is to teach his student how to fly, not to keep track of incoming Mooney pilots.  Again, the Warrior was at a lower altitude and had the right of way.  If you don't believe consult your AIM.

The Warrior was where he was supposed to be in the traffic pattern.  You were incoming, failed to see the already established traffic, and flew a course that resulted in conflict.  The fault was ENTIRELY yours.  We have to give student pilots a lot of leeway, even when they have CFIs on board, indeed especially when they have CFI's on board.

What's the lesson here?  What can we gain from the unfortunate circumstance?  If you're approaching an airstrip that has announced traffic make darn certain you see said traffic before you make your own approach.  Hereabouts we can have multiple aircraft in the traffic pattern, I DO NOT scream in at Mooney speeds and expect everyone to make room for me.  I sequence myself into traffic patterns to avoid conflict with those already there.  The good news is with gear and flaps deployed our Mooneys fly at roughly the speeds of Warriors and Skyhawks.

 

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6 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

If the two airplanes got to within 50 ft of each other, that's powerful evidence that the student/CFI did NOT see the Mooney.

Or you have a macho attitude and refuse to give any quarter. The CFI and I have had words in the past (with me and others). I have reasons to believe that the close turn in front of us was deliberate. 

Jim

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1 minute ago, jcovington said:

Or you have a macho attitude and refuse to give any quarter. The CFI and I have had words in the past (with me and others). I have reasons to believe that the close turn in front of us was deliberate. 

Jim

True, but that's an accusation with far reaching consequences... I'd give quarter on my part long before making that accusation.

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3 minutes ago, steingar said:

What's the lesson here?  What can we gain from the unfortunate circumstance?  If you're approaching an airstrip that has announced traffic make darn certain you see said traffic before you make your own approach.  Hereabouts we can have multiple aircraft in the traffic pattern, I DO NOT scream in at Mooney speeds and expect everyone to make room for me.  I sequence myself into traffic patterns to avoid conflict with those already there.  The good news is with gear and flaps deployed our Mooneys fly at roughly the speeds of Warriors and Skyhawks.

I too fly my Mooney to mix in with others. I slowed the plane on the 45 entry, dropped the gear and was at my downwind speed before entering downwind. I am not sure where you are getting that I was screaming in. I was moving quickly approaching the 45 entry and I was listening to the Warrior pilot make his position calls so I knew where he was in the pattern (sequencing in as you said). I though (wrongly) that he would fly a standard pattern and carrying some extra speed would keep us separated. I did keep my speed up some (~10 kts) on the 45 entry. I certainly wasn't going any faster in the downwind than normal.

I certainly could have exited the pattern. I have traffic on crosswind that I don't have in sight. Which way do I go? Right would take me closer to him, left might make me turn into him. Straight ahead in this case was exactly the wrong direction because that is where he was entering downwind. Climb probably would have worked as I was reasonably sure he wasn't above me.

Jim

 

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