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Near miss in traffic pattern


jcovington

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A few months ago we had an interesting discussion on what to do with a pilot that you think is doing something unsafe. I was thinking about that thread in the aftermath of a close encounter with another plane in the pattern. I chose the route of speaking to the pilot/CFI.


The incident:
We were returning from six days touring Canada with the Interprovincial Air Tour (IPAT). Great trip with some great people. We were in-bound to the airport from the northeast with a northerly wind so I was already set up for a 45 entry to the right downwind. I was handed off from Memphis Center to Huntsville approach about 35 nm north and needing to descend from 8000 ft. Huntsville approach stepped us down from 8000 to 6000 to 4000 as we approached the airport. 14 nm out, I canceled IFR and switched over to CTAF. We were moving pretty fast with the north tailwind and the speed from descending.


There was a Warrior with what sounded like a student pilot in the pattern doing touch and goes. I called inbound at 14, 10, 8 and 4 nm as is my normal practice. At the 4 nm on the 45 entry call the Warrior was just lifting off for the next circuit. I was still descending on the 45 entry so I had to slow to put the gear down and had settled into my normal 100 kts downwind speed. He called crosswind and I started looking for him off the end of the runway in the normal crosswind position. I expected to be in front of him with no conflicts. I couldn’t find him and proceeded to turn downwind. I made a downwind call and the Warrior responded with “Do you have the Warrior in sight?” Before I could answer I saw the Warrior 50 feet below and off the right nose. He continued to climb and entered the downwind a couple hundred feet ahead of us. I yanked the throttle back and started an immediate left turn to avoid the plane. I called reentering the pattern and proceeded to land after the Warrior.


Aftermath:
We unloaded the plane and put it away in the hangar. We stopped by the FBO for a nature break and so I could speak to the front desk. I asked who was flying the Warrior and if he was a student pilot. I was told that he was and I said that he needed some remedial training in pattern operations with his instructor. I was told that his instructor was on board. After I got over that shock I dropped it and proceeded to take care of nature.


When I was leaving the FBO the Warrior was shut down on the ramp and I decided to go speak to the instructor. I am assuming at this point that they didn’t see us and it was a mistake.
Me: “Do you know how close that was?”
CFI: “Yes, you were pretty close to us.” (with a laugh)
Me: “I was close to you?”
CFI: “Yes, you made your call on a 4 nm 45 entry when we were on crosswind”
Me: “Do you know how fast I was going?”
CFI: “You should have slowed to VFR traffic pattern speed.”
Me: “I had already slowed to gear extension speed and pattern speed. You should not have flown a tight pattern.”
CFI: “I turned the crosswind at my normal 500 feet AGL as I always do.”


At this point, I turned around and walked off because I wasn’t getting anywhere. Any point I brought up was met with a dismissive attitude of “I didn’t do anything wrong and it is all your fault.”


Analysis:
This is what I believe happened:
•    The Warrior lifted off at 500 ft AGL as stated. The runway is 6000 ft so I suspect this was midfield or so. The student (as most students do) failed to compensate for the wind during the crosswind leg. This put the airplane about 1/3 of the way down the field on crosswind.
•    I expected the pattern to be flown as the AIM recommends and the turn to crosswind to be off the end of the runway which puts you behind the traffic entering on a 45. I didn’t look toward mid-field which is where the traffic was located.
•    Since we were flying right traffic, the Warrior was below the window and hidden from my view.
•    This is the point that I have thought long and hard about. I believe that the CFI and the student saw us on downwind and maneuvered to turn in front of us from their crosswind, which is why the CFI thought the incident funny when I approached him. I at least take some comfort in this thought in that he was at least maneuvering to stay away from us. I also think it is probably the dumbest pilot trick I have ever seen. Maybe I am wrong but it is the only explanation I can find for his behavior. He should have been as raddled as I was and yet he was very nonchalant about the entire incident.
•    If I am correct that the behavior was deliberate, then he seriously underestimated the closure rates. The Warrior was probably climbing at 70 kts. I was doing 100 kts indicated with a tailwind. We had at least a 30 kt closure and it could have been 40 kts.
•    My guess is that the CFI felt that he had right away and he may well have. Giving way to another aircraft only works if you have them in sight. The whole see and avoid is the responsibility of both planes. If he had me in sight (how can you miss a Mooney 200 feet above you in your windshield), it is also his responsibility to avoid us.


Other than staying away from this CFI and his students in the pattern I am not sure what else to do. One of the FBO managers was in the office and heard the exchange I had with the front desk. The other FBO manager is a good friend of mine, the CFI’s employer, and the owner of the rental Warrior. I will probably talk to him but I don’t believe it will make much difference.


All in all, a pretty disturbing end to an otherwise great trip.

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IIRC, the AIM suggests the crosswind turn should be made no sooner than within 300 ft of pattern altitude, so that the turn to downwind is not made while still climbing (with its inherent decreased visibility). 

Also, the right-of-way statutes dictate that you officially had the right of way since you were converging and to the right of the other aircraft (assuming this was a left hand pattern).

I would also file a NASA ASRS report.  While it may do nothing to change the behavior of another problem pilot, it will be some measure of protection for you if he decides to be an asshat and files a complaint with the local FSDO

Edited by jaylw314
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Sounds like the cfi didn’t take it seriously which is unfortunate.  I’m not trying to insult you or be a jackass, however, I wouldn’t put all the blame on him...  

1. Sometimes stuff happens.

2. I don’t enter the pattern with other aircraft in it unless I see them or specifically deconflict on the radio.

3. Don’t trust anyone else to keep you safe (ie good traffic pattern calls, cfi having awareness, etc) because they won’t.

4. I’m not sure the “converging” right of way applies since he was established in the pattern.  Regardless, nobody should get close just because they think they have right of way.

5. Refer to #1.

I had a similar experience recently and my ADSB threw out a traffic alert which I reacted off of and then saw the non-talking airplane much closer than I wanted to.  I blame myself.  I always tell my students that they should be expecting to share the pattern with a non radio equipped airplane because it’s very possible they are.

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It sounds like you did everything right, but the CFI/student in the Warrior weren’t interested in or lacked the capacity to work or communicate  well with anyone else. Since they were already in the pattern, they probably had the right of way assuming they were flying a proper pattern. Probably a crap or dissatisfied CFI, but there are a few pilots who are oblivious, overwhelmed,  feel entitled, or really don’t care about anyone else in or near the pattern to the detriment of everyone’s safety. All we can do is remain alert watching and communicate often.  Sometimes, I’ll directly ask their exact position and intentions if there’s a possibility of a traffic conflict. Whether either of has the right of way is less important than a potential collision hazard. I’ll leave the pattern area if I think someone is a danger in the area. 

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Nicely written report, JC.

Thanks for sharing all of the detail.

Working with other people is always going to be interesting.

You did an admirable job of bringing the situation to people that can use it... both at the airport and here on MS.

Even the student and CFI will be thinking what they can do better.

Continuous improvement...

 

Best regards,

-a-

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I agree with@ragsf15e, I don't enter the pattern unless I have all aircraft accounted for. This only protects you against aircraft you know about. This reminds me about the time I got a face full of a Steerman flying tight patterns with no radio. It sucks so stay vigilant.

As a CFI, I'm very strict with my students on flying by "the numbers" in the pattern. This builds good habit patterns for pitch & power settings inside the cockpit as well as repeatable ground tracts in the pattern. If they can't do the pattern basics with ease, no solo. BTW, they learn from their pattern mistakes faster when they fly that way.

Sorry to hear such about such a lax attitude from that CFI. We're not paid to be students friends, we're paid to make them the safe, professional aviators.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

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22 minutes ago, irishpilot said:

I agree with@ragsf15e, I don't enter the pattern unless I have all aircraft accounted for. This only protects you against aircraft you know about. This reminds me about the time I got a face full of a Steerman flying tight patterns with no radio. 
 

I have the same policy for having a visual on aircraft before entering the pattern. We tend to forget that there may still be legal NORDO aircraft flying in the pattern.  I had a similar encounter with an old Stinson who came in NORDO in a wrong right traffic pattern at my home airport with standard left patterns.  Fortunately, I saw him in time.  

Edited by HXG
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He was in front, lower, and to the right. He has the right of way. He turned xwind too low...his normal practice...he's a dope. He was climbing into and on the downwind...not smart...but, you were required to yield. A call to his chief pilot might be in order if he works for a flight school.

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He was in front, lower, and to the right. He has the right of way. He turned xwind too low...his normal practice...he's a dope. He was climbing into and on the downwind...not smart...but, you were required to yield. A call to his chief pilot might be in order if he works for a flight school.

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I had a similar incident where I was on final and a Cessna pulled out right in front of me onto the runway. No radio call, nothing. I had to go around and side step to the upwind because I was coming up too quickly. Could just about roll down the window and have a chat right there. 

This put me in an awkward position because I could not get behind him to turn crosswind and I would not turn right in front either. I had to wait for him to turn crosswind and extend out even further before I could turn. Still no radio calls from him. I turn downwind but I still don’t know if he’s planning to land or not so I ask him to “say intentions.” No answer.

I begin to suspect my own radio so I ask for a radio check and promptly get a response from the ground. On downwind I’m catching up to the Cessna again so I had to widen the pattern. I still don’t know if he’s landing or not. He turns base and final without descending so I can’t tell if he’s landing so I am forced to continue extending downwind. Finally he drops straight down and lands. Not a single radio call.

Uneventful landing after him for me. Figured it was a student or a dumb pilot on the wrong frequency. Tried to get his numbers but they were teenie tiny. When he shut down, turned out he’s based there. Then he gave me attitude that maybe it was my radio that was broken because he was announcing all along. However, I did get a response to a radio check and a witness on the ground never heard a call from the Cessna.

Radio or not, he pulled out in front of me when I was on short final. The “I can’t see the base” excuse was invalid because I clearly saw him pulling out when I was on final. If I can see him, he should see me. The “high wing” excuse is invalid because you are supposed to orient the plane so you can see the pattern. 

This wasn’t just a question of the AIM and personal preference but a violation of 91.113g, right of way of landing aircraft.

He flew again and confirmed he had a radio problem that he then fixed. No “thank you”, no “sorry”, no “my bad”. He said it was still my fault, that I must have been coming in too fast because he should have been off before me or that I should have just landed right behind him.

Sad thing is the guy has been flying his whole life, owns nearly a dozen planes, and an airplane manufacturing company.

Edited by 201er
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11 hours ago, jcovington said:

I expected to be in front of him with no conflicts. I couldn’t find him and proceeded to turn downwind.

Why did you turn downwind anyway when you didn’t see him where you expected? You entered the pattern without identifying traffic in the pattern that you knew is there. The Warrior was on crosswind when you made your call 4 miles out entering on a 45. You know he’s in the pattern, lower than you at that point and you should see him. I also think you should’ve slowed down to pattern speed sooner knowing there’s traffic in the pattern. Gear speed is too fast.

I like to analyze and critique my own decisions and learn from them. We can’t control what others do. We can only control our own actions.

Edited by PTK
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3 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I disagree with pattern traffic has the right of way.

The pattern traffic (Warrior) in this case would have the right of way because they’re at a lower altitude and landing not because they are in the pattern already. Practically speaking, the goal is to avoid a potential traffic conflict so I will generally yield to and visually Identify pattern traffic before entering the pattern.

Also, while not relevant in this case, some who fly straight in approaches and IFR traffic do not have any priority at non towered airports. Fortunately, most pilots communicate well and try to accommodate each other.

Advisory Circular 90-66A states:
“The FAA encourages pilots to use the standard traffic pattern. However, for those pilots who choose to execute a straight-in approach, maneuvering for and execution of the approach should be completed so as not to disrupt the flow of arriving and departing traffic.”

Edited by HXG
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10 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

IIRC, the AIM suggests the crosswind turn should be made no sooner than within 300 ft of pattern altitude, so that the turn to downwind is not made while still climbing (with its inherent decreased visibility). 

The AIM says that the cross-wind turn should be made once past the departure end of the runway and within 300 ft of pattern altitude. The Warrior was using 500 ft AGL as his cross-wind turn location. Doing this puts them in a different position on cross-wind depending on wind and touchdown point. Of course, the AIM is advisory so he was certainly within his rights to do what he did. I just don't think it is a good practice.

I expected the Warrior to be off the end of the runway on cross-wind not close to midfield. I won't make that mistake again.

Jim

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10 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Sounds like the cfi didn’t take it seriously which is unfortunate.  I’m not trying to insult you or be a jackass, however, I wouldn’t put all the blame on him...

I did not mean to imply that I was putting the blame on him. A mid-air or near miss is both parties fault. I certainly could have done some things differently to avoid the conflict and will in the future. I am certainly guilty of expecting pilots to fly a standard pattern. I will be more vigilant and scan for traffic across the entire field to, hopefully, avoid future conflicts.

Jim 

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In a situation like this, staying wide when you enter the 45 to down wind helps give a wider view of the pattern until traffic is either picked up and no longer a conflict—safety should trump our desire to enter a standard traffic pattern when non-standard flying is going on in the pattern.    “Sharing the air” is unfortunately foreign to a lot of folks.  Glad everyone made down safely!  Not a CFI, just another pilot with similar experiences.

Edited by cbarry
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57 minutes ago, PTK said:

Why did you turn downwind anyway when you didn’t see him where you expected? You entered the pattern without identifying traffic in the pattern that you knew is there. The Warrior was on crosswind when you made your call 4 miles out entering on a 45. You know he’s in the pattern, lower than you at that point and you should see him. I also think you should’ve slowed down to pattern speed sooner knowing there’s traffic in the pattern. Gear speed is too fast.

I realize that I was going fast on the 45 entry. Part of that was the late descent from ATC. Putting the gear down on the 45 entry did put me at pattern speed before turning downwind. The other part was that I have flown the Warrior both as a pilot and as instructor. It is a very slow airplane especially in a climb. I intentionally kept the speed high so that I would join downwind in front of the Warrior thinking that would avoid any conflict and wouldn't interfere with his pattern work. I did not expect the Warrior to fly a close in pattern. In hindsight I should have let him go first and I will in the future.

What bothers me most about this entire incident is the Warrior pilot/cfi assuming that because they had right away that they could continue the pattern and I would give way. The only way that works is if I had him in sight which was a bad assumption in this case. Had the positions been reversed I would have maneuvered to avoid the conflict regardless of who has right away. Even if this event is entirely my fault and the Warrior is completely innocent I can not accept that making a turn from crosswind to downwind within a few hundred feet of another airplane is acceptable. We all have a see and avoid responsibility regardless of who has right away. The call "Mooney do you have the Warrior in sight?" just before the Warrior turned to downwind tells me that they intended to continue no matter what. What if I was a student pilot and my startle response had been to yank back the throttle and pitch up? It could have easily resulted in an accelerated stall. In my case I pulled the throttle and pushed over before starting the turn to give us some separation.

Jim

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Visual separation is the key.  The radio is merely there to assist with attaining a visual on traffic and coordination with said traffic thereafter.  It’s not good that the CFI was flying a pattern that deviates from FAR/AIM guidelines, but the FAR/AIM is not regulatory, 91.113 is and he was lower.  Not that it would’ve made a difference in this case, but I think brevity in the pattern is as important as it is with ATC. 4 radio calls before one has entered the pattern is excessive and may contribute others in the pattern tuning those calls out. They obviously shouldn’t do this, but human nature is what it is.

As has been stated, radio calls mean nothing if the other guy doesn’t have one. I had an incounter at a rural airport with a NORDO Aeronca 7AC while practicing an instrument approach. 1.5 mile final for me and base turn for him (roughly same altitude) when I saw him. Easier to speed up than slow down so I did and landed first. He was a little PO’d when we met on the ramp, but the outcome was better than the OP’s. I sensed this had happened to him many times and apologized for not having a better eye. We talked it out and chalked it up to “these things happen”. The build quality of his Champ was incredible. Literally perfect.  He turned out to be very highly regarded EAA builder and Aeronca restorer Bill Pancake (inter webs are full of articles and accolades). He was very nice once we got over the pattern conflict and showed me his plane. I’m glad he caught me in a conciliatory mood. It worked out for the best. If you don’t know who you’re talking to it’s best to approach with your pride in your pocket. I’m glad I did.

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4 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I disagree with pattern traffic has the right of way.
Landing traffic has the right of way. If you doing pattern work, you need to give way to inbound landing traffic. That’s how it works at every towered airport I’ve been to. Non towered should be the same.


Tom

 You might disagree but I don’t think the FAA would see it that way. 91.113 is not as clear as it could be. In this case both aircraft airborne with the intent of landing and the Mooney was definitely overtaking the Cessna. Both failed to see and avoid.

 

§ 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

(a)Inapplicability. This section does not apply to the operation of an aircraft on water. 

(b)General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each  person operating an  aircraft so as to see and avoid other  aircraft. When a rule of this section gives another aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give way to that  aircraft and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless well clear. 

(c)In distress. An aircraft in distress has the right-of-way over all other air traffic.

(d)Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so), the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way. If the  aircraft are of different categories - 

(1) A balloon has the right-of-way over any other category of  aircraft

(2) A glider has the right-of-way over an  airship,  powered parachuteweight-shift-control aircraft,  airplane, or  rotorcraft.

(3) An airship has the right-of-way over a  powered parachute,  weight-shift-control aircraft,  airplane, or  rotorcraft

However, an aircraft towing or refueling other  aircraft has the right-of-way over all other engine-driven  aircraft

(e)Approaching head-on. When aircraft are approaching each other head-on, or nearly so, each pilot of each  aircraft shall alter course to the right. 

(f)Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking  aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear. 

(g)Landing.Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other  aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an  aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an  aircraft on final approach. When two or more  aircraft are approaching an  airport for the purpose of landing, the  aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that  aircraft

[Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34294, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91-282, 69 FR 44880, July 27, 2004]
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I had an incident awhile back at my home field.  I was returning from an x-c, checked the weather some 15 miles out which indicated light winds favoring rwy 23.  I made a call 10 out to advise of crossing overhead and entering the LH downwind for 23, called when in the downwind, called on base turn and called on final.  About 100 feet AGL, I see very bright lights on the other end of the field and a bit higher than I.  King Air 350 rolling straight in.  Knowing the gravity of this situation, I sidestepped left and climbed out on the upwind, making a call to advise.  At this time, the King Air comes over the radio announcing his "position".  I reaffirmed my intent to go around.   His response was that "the windsock is favoring rwy 5".  In his defense, he was correct that the sock was dead still but favoring 5.  However, he didn't know that when he was 10 miles out making his straight in approach.  I didn't want to argue with him over the radio since, you know, I'm still flying an airplane.

Needless to say, he was in his car and gone by the time I pushed back into my spot.

Should I have reconfigured upon seeing the wind sock? There's a valid argument there.  But, reported winds favored 23 and they were light at that.  There was no other traffic heard or seen so I didn't disrupt the flow. 

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Advisory Circular 90-66A states:
“The FAA encourages pilots to use the standard traffic pattern. However, for those pilots who choose to execute a straight-in approach, maneuvering for and execution of the approach should be completed so as not to disrupt the flow of arriving and departing traffic.”

Note the key phrase: “arriving and departing traffic”.

If you are doing pattern work (touch and gos, low approaches ) you should yield to traffic that’s actually trying to go somewhere.

That includes extending your downwind or do a 360 to allow the arriving traffic or departing to get in or out and out of the airspace.

Not doing so will just cause the airspace to become more crowded .

 

Tom

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Sorry, but...

  • Assuming everyone else is going to fly to our interpretation of the FAR/AIM is naive.
  • Entering the traffic pattern without a visual on other planes in the pattern is presumptuous.
  • Descending into the pattern in a low wing is visually problematic. 

I would have apologized to the student for flying into his pattern without seeing him first. 

I like to approach the pattern at pattern altitude. It's just much less likely I'm hiding someone with my wing. And I'd never assume anyone else should be looking for me, will be where they say they are, or doing what I think they should be doing.

This also comes from a lot of years on motorcycles. The safest way to ride is to assume I am invisible. Others on the road can't see you. If I ride that way, then it's 100% on me not to get hit. 

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11 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Note the key phrase: “arriving and departing traffic”.

If you are doing pattern work (touch and gos, low approaches ) you should yield to traffic that’s actually trying to go somewhere.

That includes extending your downwind or do a 360 to allow the arriving traffic or departing to get in or out and out of the airspace.

Not doing so will just cause the airspace to become more crowded .

 

Tom

If I'm doing pattern work, I'm always either just departing or just arriving. Just because my distance between takeoff and landing is less than your cross country is not material.

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As pointed out you were assuming he was someplace based on radio calls.   Since it is see and avoid.  I like to have visual on the plane before I chose my route.  I also play ATC on the radio and assign everyone numbers and then tell where I am going to be.   "Your number one"  "I'll be number two behind number one the piper"

I don't believe in right of way.   I believe in everyone going home.  

You did make me go look at the aim because I recall a CFI saying something about needing 1200 feet before turning crosswind at a 1100 TPA airport.  

The AIM

On the departure leg after takeoff, the pilot should continue climbing straight ahead and, if remaining in the traffic pattern, commence a turn to the crosswind leg beyond the departure end of the runway within 300 feet of the traffic pattern altitude. If departing the traffic pattern, the pilot should continue straight out or exit with a 45° turn (to the left when in a left-hand traffic pattern; to the right when in a right-hand traffic pattern) beyond the departure end of the runway after reaching the traffic pattern altitude.

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6 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:
  • Assuming everyone else is going to fly to our interpretation of the FAR/AIM is naive.
  • Entering the traffic pattern without a visual on other planes in the pattern is presumptuous.
  • Descending into the pattern in a low wing is visually problematic. 

Perhaps I am naive but then why do we have recommendations published for our use? When I am mixing with other traffic in the pattern I try to be both polite and safe. Sometimes I need to speed up and sometimes I need to slow down. I expected the speed to give me separation and to not interfere with the Warrior pattern. I was wrong in this case.

I don't see how to have a visual on traffic at all times in the pattern. You have to depend somewhat on situational awareness of what the traffic is doing. I was definitely looking for him just apparently not in the right place. When I was established on downwind the Warrior was low and to my right. Very much a blind spot for me. Keep in mind that the conflict occurred about mid-field downwind. I had been established for a while and was in clear sight of the Warrior.

I did not descend into the pattern. I was at pattern altitude on the 45 entry. I was slowing to put the gear out on the 45 so it was fairly quick. The Warrior was climbing on crosswind so he was below and to the right. The Warrior continued to climb after turning downwind. I could tell since I had a front row seat :).

I never spoke to the student. My conversation was with the CFI. I was not inclined to apologize since the turn from crosswind to downwind was too close to another aircraft and should not have been performed. That turn is my biggest problem with the encounter.

Jim

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