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Motive for beach buzzing Mooney


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56 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Mental conditions may be factors in some cases, but there is no evidence that they comprise a significant fraction of accidents, much less a majority.

An additional argument is that the proportion of people involved in accidents through pilot error that suffer from an impairing mental condition is significantly lower than the general population, since, by definition, those conditions are impairing and would make completing a complex task such as pilot training less likely.

Again, I emphasize recognizing wildly reckless behavior as being an extension of normal human behavior, because if we fail to recognize the parts of human nature that exist in all of us (including difficulty judging our level of risk), we are more prone to falling prey to those very things

No disagreement at all with your basic argument - that most GA accidents are preventable, and we all have to recognize our own human limitations to help prevent them, including  reckless parts of our own nature.  There just seems to be something a little different here - it seems well beyond the normal spectrum of negligence and risk taking to which the typical mature adult who flies planes is vulnerable. It's very hard for me to put myself in this particular human being's shoes, and that is my point.  Perhaps there is an element of willful self destruction or other serious incapacity  hidden here .

There have been a handful of pilot suicides while flying big jets for major carriers with passengers - Germanwings 9525 comes to mind - a dumbfounding and utterly unrelatable act to most people, except maybe those who have also been suicidally depressed. It's quite rare for such a thing to happen in the  professional environment of a major carrier, where there is constant awareness of ones actions by others. One would predict such events to be more common among private pilots, who are under far less scrutiny and are not investigated in as much detail after an event like this - and so it may never come to light.

 

Edited by DXB
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34 minutes ago, DXB said:

No disagreement at all with your basic argument - that most GA accidents are preventable, and we all have to recognize our own human limitations to help prevent them, including  reckless parts of our own nature.  There just seems to be something a little different here - it seems well beyond the normal spectrum of negligence and risk taking to which the typical mature adult who flies planes is vulnerable. It's very hard for me to put myself in this particular human being's shoes, and that is my point.  Perhaps there is an element of willful self destruction or other serious incapacity  hidden here .

There have been a handful of pilot suicides while flying big jets for major carriers with passengers - Germanwings 9525 comes to mind - a dumbfounding and utterly unrelatable act to most people, except maybe those who have also been suicidally depressed. It's quite rare for such a thing to happen in the  professional environment of a major carrier, where there is constant awareness of ones actions by others. One would predict such events to be more common among private pilots, who are under far less scrutiny and are not investigated in as much detail after an event like this - and so it may never come to light.

I think it's a very human belief when faced with abnormal events, to assume that the motives and emotions of the person involved must have been so out of the ordinary as to be unrelatable to by a typical person.  I suppose my professional experience has been that many of those things should not be unrelatable, and being able to relate to others is one of those skills that can make us better and more effective people in the end.  Knowing what the motivation of reckless behavior are will make us more vigilant in managing it and preventing it in ourselves.  I think @RobertGary1 hit that on the head in his earlier post.

In addition to being more aware of our own pitfalls, though, being able to relate to those motivations might give us a better chance of intervening and changing his or her actions in the future.  If we start with the belief that we can't understand how anyone could be motivated to recklessness or suicide, it's likely that conversation would either go poorly or not at all.

Edited by jaylw314
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I see guys ride wheelies and lane split all the time.  Not much different in my book than flying low in somebody else’s plane.  A thrill for thrills sake.  Some people except and crave risk and danger.  Like a free climb artist they are really good (or think they are really good) and believe the risk (that majority of population would reject) is acceptable.  Like reaching into an unguarded machine or cutting the grass barefoot on a hill, they are “rewarded” every time nothing happens.  Maybe he did this before and nothing happened.  A little lower to get the same adrenaline rush?  When you take these risks you ultimately impact others directly or indirectly when it goes wrong.  Everybody has an acceptable level of risk, in their minds.  I will continue to shake my head and quietly enjoy the vicarious pleasure of others daring ado...statistic today/tomorrow/never?  Fate is the Hunter.

Edited by RogueOne
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11 hours ago, RogueOne said:

I see guys ride wheelies and lane split all the time.  Not much different in my book than flying low in somebody else’s plane.  

Not a big fan of wheelies, but lane splitting has positive safety value.

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On 6/18/2019 at 8:26 AM, steingar said:

I just thank my lucky stars that this sort of thing is of sufficient rarity that when someone does something that profoundly irresponsible we stand up and take notice, rather than say "meh, there goes another one".

Unfortunately not, it just happened on Fathers day again in California at Lake Tullock. RIP Larry, Trent

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On 6/18/2019 at 5:06 AM, DXB said:

I have no clue what actually happened to this gentleman, but he was in his 50s - an age group that is much less prone to  wildly reckless behavior than younger folks.  It makes me wonder about serious mental /physical impairment beyond just the normal human frailties.

I would argue it's much more a function of personality type here, than age.

I lost a plane and friend when the partner in the plane, a 60-year old university science professor, flying with his daughter for the first time, ran out of fuel.  He enjoyed racing cars, living fast, was on his 3rd wife (30 years his junior), looked a bit like Sean Connery and acted that way too.  Great guy to hang out with.  But I was always worried about his attitude to flying and it ended up killing him and badly injuring his daughter.  Like the Huey accident guy described here - he was used to maintaining his own racing cars and wanted to do the same with the plane - something which the other two partners quickly stopped (even though it was experimental class).  But it shows the attitude.  Lastly, his first flying instructor (which all of us used) was a hard-ass but wildly experienced German bush-pilot also in his late 50s.  He just couldn't handle someone of the same age correcting him - so he switched instructors to a 21-year old who called him "Sir" to finish up his license.  His fatal accident was about 5 hours after getting his PPL.

Edited by pwnel
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8 minutes ago, pwnel said:

I would argue it's much more a function of personality type here, than age.

Agreed. Stupidity and bravado have no limits, particularly age-related ones. If anything, bravado gets worse with age because of the number of times you've gotten away with it.

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2 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Agreed. Stupidity and bravado have no limits, particularly age-related ones. If anything, bravado gets worse with age because of the number of times you've gotten away with it.

Again though I don't think lack of cognition (i.e. "stupidity") really has anything to do with these accidents. It might be a nice clean way of putting a bow on something we don't want to address though.

-Robert

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4 hours ago, steingar said:

Not a big fan of wheelies, but lane splitting has positive safety value.

. . . is also illegal. Car & truck drivers don't look for someone zooming between vehicles [at least I sure don't!! so be careful passing vehicles with Alabama tags if you're riding the line instead of between them].

Benefits of lane-splitting motorsickles:

  • riding in my blind spot
  • you have to dodge me instead of me dodging you
  • rider saves a few minutes' sitting in traffic
  • vehicular traffic ensures steady supply of younger organ donors

So keep splitting lanes and saving yourself a few minutes. You may help save a dozen or more lives!

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19 minutes ago, Hank said:

. . . is also illegal. Car & truck drivers don't look for someone zooming between vehicles [at least I sure don't!! so be careful passing vehicles with Alabama tags if you're riding the line instead of between them].

Benefits of lane-splitting motorsickles:

  • riding in my blind spot
  • you have to dodge me instead of me dodging you
  • rider saves a few minutes' sitting in traffic
  • vehicular traffic ensures steady supply of younger organ donors

So keep splitting lanes and saving yourself a few minutes. You may help save a dozen or more lives!

It is only specifically legal in California, but in several other states there are no laws against it.  Further, studies have shown that it it much safer for the rider than staying in lanes.  One of the most dangerous accidents for a motorcyclist is a rear end collision.  When lane splitting, that risk diminishes significantly and, according to the study, enough to justify a possible side swipe from being in a blind spot.

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26 minutes ago, Hank said:

. . . is also illegal. Car & truck drivers don't look for someone zooming between vehicles [at least I sure don't!! so be careful passing vehicles with Alabama tags if you're riding the line instead of between them].

Benefits of lane-splitting motorsickles:

  • riding in my blind spot
  • you have to dodge me instead of me dodging you
  • rider saves a few minutes' sitting in traffic
  • vehicular traffic ensures steady supply of younger organ donors

So keep splitting lanes and saving yourself a few minutes. You may help save a dozen or more lives!

Legal here in California because of the safety increase. There has been talk about congress recommending the DOT ask more states to allow it. Sitting behind a line of cars stopped at a light is about the most dangerous time of riding.

https://newatlas.com/motorcycle-lane-splitting-filtering-safety-research/34425/

-Robert

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21 minutes ago, Hank said:

. . . is also illegal. Car & truck drivers don't look for someone zooming between vehicles [at least I sure don't!! so be careful passing vehicles with Alabama tags if you're riding the line instead of between them].

Benefits of lane-splitting motorsickles:

  • riding in my blind spot
  • you have to dodge me instead of me dodging you
  • rider saves a few minutes' sitting in traffic
  • vehicular traffic ensures steady supply of younger organ donors

So keep splitting lanes and saving yourself a few minutes. You may help save a dozen or more lives!

Well splitting lanes is in fact legal in California. I don't have a need for it any more as I live in the country but back when I lived in the Bay Area traffic was so bad I could usually save up to an hour on my daily commute each way. Back then I lived on my Ninja and believe me there were times that I could not split lanes and holding place on a crowded backed up freeway was way more risky than splitting. When you are stuck  in place you are completely defensive when you are splitting traffic you are offensive. It's like white water kayaking you have to move in the current so that you can maneuver. I get the whole thrill seeker mentally but I mostly got over mine when I realized I was no longer immortal. Maybe some people just never grow out of it. I don't think this incident was intentional. Regardless it's very sad and also disrespectful because he did not own that airplane and destroyed it playing his deadly game.

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5 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

It is only specifically legal in California, but in several other states there are no laws against it.  Further, studies have shown that it it much safer for the rider than staying in lanes.  One of the most dangerous accidents for a motorcyclist is a rear end collision.  When lane splitting, that risk diminishes significantly and, according to the study, enough to justify a possible side swipe from being in a blind spot.

I think "much safer" might be overstating the case.  IIRC, the UC Berkeley study suggested it was not more dangerous, with the caveats that traffic was below highway speed and when the motorcycle was not travelling much faster than the cars, e.g. in heavy traffic.  I don't remember speeds, or if they looked at fatalities only or all accident types

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2 hours ago, steingar said:

Not a big fan of wheelies, but lane splitting has positive safety value.

Not the way most people do it. The positive safety value dissapears as speed differential between cars motorcycles increases.  A better strategy would be to strictly enforce “pass to the left and merge”.

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1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

Again though I don't think lack of cognition (i.e. "stupidity") really has anything to do with these accidents. It might be a nice clean way of putting a bow on something we don't want to address though.

-Robert

I wasn't saying stupidly and bravado is a joint concept, nor that acting stupid has anything to do with native intelligence, although Darwin might have something to say about that :D

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2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Not the way most people do it. The positive safety value dissapears as speed differential between cars motorcycles increases.  A better strategy would be to strictly enforce “pass to the left and merge”.

I've been rear-ended on a bike, it can be impossible to avoid in this kind of traffic.  When I filter it's usually no more than 10 mph faster than the cars.  If someone krons into the back of me I might not see them, if they change lanes or open their car door in front of me I will.  Moreover, smacking into something at 10 mph isn't all that terribly painful.  I usually filter to get past sticky spots in traffic, so it can save me a boatload of time.

. . . is also illegal. Car & truck drivers don't look for someone zooming between vehicles [at least I sure don't!! so be careful passing vehicles with Alabama tags if you're riding the line instead of between them].

Benefits of lane-splitting motorsickles:

  • riding in my blind spot
  • you have to dodge me instead of me dodging you
  • rider saves a few minutes' sitting in traffic
  • vehicular traffic ensures steady supply of younger organ donors

So keep splitting lanes and saving yourself a few minutes. You may help save a dozen or more lives!

I don't allow dumb shit  laws to keep me from doing what's safe.  As far as being so dangerous, been riding like this for 30 years now.  I doubt anyone arguing with me has ever ridden  motorcycle.  If you had you'd not be arguing.

 

Edited by steingar
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55 minutes ago, GLJA said:

A song comes to mind:

It's a simple as that. Thrill seeker went out, and (purely assumption) had zero worry that he'd be a statistic.

 

Which is totally fine. He used his personal risk/thrill calculus and decided it was worth it. Personal freedom rocks. 90% of the public would say anyone climbing into a small plane has a screw loose so your calculus may vary.

-Robert

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5 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

 90% of the public would say anyone climbing into a small plane has a screw loose so your calculus may vary.

-Robert

I say the same thing about Bull Riders, Tight Rope Walkers, and the majority of people I see at Wal-Mart. 

My point was that I don't believe ANYONE, thrill seeker or otherwise, gets up in the morning, and expects to meet the Grim Reaper later that day. 

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1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

Which is totally fine. He used his personal risk/thrill calculus and decided it was worth it. Personal freedom rocks. 90% of the public would say anyone climbing into a small plane has a screw loose so your calculus may vary.

-Robert

Yup.  You can’t legislate “out” individual risk without killing aviation and the freedom to fly.  Just sad he “bought it” and wish he would of taken the risk in his own (paid for) uninsured airframe...

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4 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Not the way most people do it. The positive safety value dissapears as speed differential between cars motorcycles increases.  A better strategy would be to strictly enforce “pass to the left and merge”.

The heavens shall part long before the ignorant or entitled yield.

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2 hours ago, steingar said:

I've been rear-ended on a bike, it can be impossible to avoid in this kind of traffic.  When I filter it's usually no more than 10 mph faster than the cars.  If someone krons into the back of me I might not see them, if they change lanes or open their car door in front of me I will.  Moreover, smacking into something at 10 mph isn't all that terribly painful.  I usually filter to get past sticky spots in traffic, so it can save me a boatload of time.

I don't allow dumb shit  laws to keep me from doing what's safe.  As far as being so dangerous, been riding like this for 30 years now.  I doubt anyone arguing with me has ever ridden  motorcycle.  If you had you'd not be arguing.

 

I have been riding a long time.  With all do respect, if you were rear ended by a bike you either hit something that stopped you or the rider was not driving defensively. Very few cars will out brake even older bikes.  I have a 46 year old Triumph with twin leading shoe drum brakes and even it will out brake most any car on the road.

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2 hours ago, steingar said:

I've been rear-ended on a bike, it can be impossible to avoid in this kind of traffic.  When I filter it's usually no more than 10 mph faster than the cars.  If someone krons into the back of me I might not see them, if they change lanes or open their car door in front of me I will.  Moreover, smacking into something at 10 mph isn't all that terribly painful.  I usually filter to get past sticky spots in traffic, so it can save me a boatload of time.

I don't allow dumb shit  laws to keep me from doing what's safe.  As far as being so dangerous, been riding like this for 30 years now.  I doubt anyone arguing with me has ever ridden  motorcycle.  If you had you'd not be arguing.

 

Rode for 40 years.  Decided the pleasure was not worth the texters out to make me dead right.  I witnessed a lane splitter put on pavement.  No helmet.  Might of been legal.  Might of felt “right”.  Ambulance didn’t get him where he wanted to go, but he did get a quick trip.  Enjoy.  I am quite the idiot.  I have worn my seatbelt for 35 years of work and over a million miles.  Never needed it.  What a waste.

Edited by RogueOne
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