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Motive for beach buzzing Mooney


201er

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Howell, New Jersey - Larry left us last week to go on to his forever home, where he is filled with joy in the presence of Jesus! He exited this side of Heaven doing what he loved best, flying a Mooney M20J aircraft! Larry loved anything that was adventurous. He spent his spare time skydiving, skiing, driving fast cars, riding motorcycles, and of course the not so adventurous, golfing!

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2019/05/mooney-m20j201-n201dg-fatal-accident.html

Edited by 201er
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I’m sorry for his loved ones. I don’t know the pilot, his motives, or his state of mental health.  If his attitude toward flying was all about thrill seeking and careless low speed flying, then he never belonged in that airplane. Aerobatics training with a responsible CFI may have been a better option for him although those of us who fly aerobatics regularly know that the fun involved isn’t about risk taking, danger or adrenaline.  I’m glad he didn’t directly harm anyone else if indeed he was just being reckless.  

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I knew another guy that was the super thrill-seeker type.   He used to race cars with us, and had several airplanes including an L-39 and a King Air.   He learned to fly helicopters and wanted to buy a Cobra but instead bought an old Huey (UH-1) that had been a static display in a museum for a long time and started flying it.   He was also a CB and even had the King Air in some sort of experimental category and was maintaining it himself.    He had the Huey in Experimental Exhibition and was maintaining it himself, too.

The main rotor separated from the mast during a flight and basically sliced the airframe into a bunch of pieces.   He had been warned by multiple knowledgeable people to fix the mast (he had removed a bump kit that was evidently important) and stop flying it like it was sport machine.   His young girlfriend was also killed in the crash.

Another friend that was a lot closer to him said nobody really expected him to get old but it was tragic that he took somebody innocent with him.

Seems like we see a fair number of accidents where that personality type is involved.   I'm glad this guy didn't hurt anybody else, but it looks like he took a nice 201 away from a flying club.

 

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3 hours ago, EricJ said:

Seems like we see a fair number of accidents where that personality type is involved.   I'm glad this guy didn't hurt anybody else, but it looks like he took a nice 201 away from a flying club.

 And he didn’t forget the rest of us rest his soul. He thought of us by making his contribution to raising our insurance premiums.

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Preliminary NTSB Report for N201DG has been issued:

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20190529X50112&AKey=1&RType=Prelim&IType=FA

ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=2019052

 

Probable Cause: the pilot’s lack of a VFR Flight Plan combined with his eagerness to meet Jesus. Also contributing to the accident was the pilot’s decision to operate the aircraft at an unsafe altitude.

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Flying at single digits low level is stupid, especially in a single engine airplane. And the hours this guy had were too few to go about this. I have 1000s of hours low level and I've done some stupid things over the Pacific Ocean in a B-52G at 390 KIAS, but never 10 feet!

Either act is stupid. 

But a Buff at 10 feet AGL going 390 KIAS would attract attention and make noise. A little bitty Mooney at 10 feet is 'meh'. Therefore, he gets no cool points from anywhere.

RIP.

This is my first post. I love flying my M20C. But I like cruising at 10,000 feet. More time to make decisions.

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Not sure if you were serious in asking why he would do that. Because its a thrill that's hard to parallel.  I spent many years flying and teaching in J-3 cubs. No one every asked how high it would go.

Racing cars is very dangerous as well but people seek that thrill. They also die a lot.

Some people seek out deadly activities.

Alternatively you could live the fantasy of dying in a home at 100 sitting in your own poo and drooling. 

-Robert

Edited by RobertGary1
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50 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Not sure if you were serious in asking why he would do that. Because its a thrill that's hard to parallel.  I spent many years flying and teaching in J-3 cubs. No one every asked how high it would go.

Racing cars is very dangerous as well but people seek that thrill. They also die a lot.

Some people seek out deadly activities.

Alternatively you could live the fantasy of dying in a home at 100 sitting in your own poo and drooling. 

-Robert

the difference however between an M20J and a J3 are pretty significant. the difference in altitude change when 2 to 3 degrees of pitch change occurs is pretty significant when doing 175mph instead of 70mph. Personally I'd happily fly a J3 at 400 to 500ft along the coast. I get scared when I get below 1000ft flying along the coast in the Mooney. I usually fly along the coast around 1250 to 1500ft along the coast with the power at 50% doing 140knots. but those 1500ft give me a pretty big margin before hitting the deck. 50 ft not so much. I feel bad for the dude, but he was being an idiot flying at 50ft and reality finally caught up with him.

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2 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

the difference however between an M20J and a J3 are pretty significant. the difference in altitude change when 2 to 3 degrees of pitch change occurs is pretty significant when doing 175mph instead of 70mph. Personally I'd happily fly a J3 at 400 to 500ft along the coast. I get scared when I get below 1000ft flying along the coast in the Mooney. I usually fly along the coast around 1250 to 1500ft along the coast with the power at 50% doing 140knots. but those 1500ft give me a pretty big margin before hitting the deck. 50 ft not so much. I feel bad for the dude, but he was being an idiot flying at 50ft and reality finally caught up with him.

We all have to find our happy medium between risk of death and spice of life. Most people would say we are crazy to get in a little plane and that we've placed the balance far too far toward the "spice of life". With few exceptions you can get where you need to in a Volvo station wagon. I feel fortunate I live in a time we can make that choice though.

-Robert

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2 hours ago, Niko182 said:

the difference however between an M20J and a J3 are pretty significant. the difference in altitude change when 2 to 3 degrees of pitch change occurs is pretty significant when doing 175mph instead of 70mph. Personally I'd happily fly a J3 at 400 to 500ft along the coast. I get scared when I get below 1000ft flying along the coast in the Mooney. I usually fly along the coast around 1250 to 1500ft along the coast with the power at 50% doing 140knots. but those 1500ft give me a pretty big margin before hitting the deck. 50 ft not so much. I feel bad for the dude, but he was being an idiot flying at 50ft and reality finally caught up with him.

Indeed you’re correct but both machines will kill you just as dead if mishandled. There are also advantages to being fast and low rather than low and slow.  This guy looked like he was under 50’ in that video. It’s likely he continued to shave his margins until he tied the rest of the folks who’ve tragically competed for the title of lowest flying pilot.

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On 6/13/2019 at 6:04 PM, HXG said:

I’m sorry for his loved ones. I don’t know the pilot, his motives, or his state of mental health.

+1    I bet behind a lot of these crashes that appear too be simple, stupid thrill seeking are much more serious mental health issues.  No easy way to know if it was a factor in many cases.  And no easy thing to prevent sadly.  

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Discussing these quirky operational things... at least keeps it from happening accidentally...

Things to consider...

  • Prop strike at cruise speed...
  • Black smoke seen after contact with the water...
  • engine no longer with the plane...
  • prop blades bent far back...
  • Plane seen climbing rapidly before stall and plummet...

 

Larry sure did leave us a lesson we can all abide by...

 

The compliance of water is quite strong. Those hydrogen bonds really hold the water molecules close together. Density of water is pretty high.  Conservation of momentum rules...

Chance of survival after coming in contact with water at cruise speed, is proven to be quite limited...

Controlling speed requires having control of the plane.

It appears the plane may have had its WnB, or even center of lift, altered upon impact... 

 

So, things we learned from Larry’s flight...

  • If your flight prep includes checking the wave height at the Jersey shore, add several hundred feet to your planned altitude.  
  • If required... Remember to slow to near stall speed before landing on the water.
  • Water isn’t very friendly at high speeds.
  • People aren’t going to be very friendly after you load up your risk level. Or place your loaded risk level onto somebody else.
  • Broken planes are hard to control.
  • Altitude above the plane still does nothing for the PIC...
  • MSL has variations, in reality.

I hadn’t ever considered flying over the surface like that.  Actual height above the ground is hard to establish without continuously scanning...

A simple controlled descent in a Mooney is accomplished at 500fpm... about 10’ per second...

Avoiding a controlled descent to the surface takes a lot of talent when traveling 10’ agl...

Changes in wind, changes in temperature, change in atmospheric pressure...lots of things that can cause a descent...

That’s pretty eye opening.

RIP, Larry.

Best regards,

-a-

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1 hour ago, DXB said:

+1    I bet behind a lot of these crashes that appear too be simple, stupid thrill seeking are much more serious mental health issues.  No easy way to know if it was a factor in many cases.  And no easy thing to prevent sadly.  

I disagree.  I think poor judgement, irrationality and faulty decision-making are normal states of the human condition, and require no additional explanation.

The goal is to find ways to mitigate those faults that everyone is capable of.  Blaming the on unspecified "mental health issues" is another way of saying "it'll never happen to me."

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4 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I disagree.  I think poor judgement, irrationality and faulty decision-making are normal states of the human condition, and require no additional explanation.

The goal is to find ways to mitigate those faults that everyone is capable of.  Blaming the on unspecified "mental health issues" is another way of saying "it'll never happen to me."

"Poor judgement, irrationality and faulty decision-making" being normal states of the human condition is undoubtedly true, and finding universal approaches to mitigate those faults in ones self is entirely appropriate.  But it is not a cop out to say those approaches will never help everyone. It's just a depressing reality. We've all seen people for whom the self-insight needed is impossible because of their mental and/or physical state.  For example a bipolar person in manic phase, suicidality, behaviors driven by drug addiction, even an unrecognized brain tumor or other brain injury. Such people can be  utterly powerless to control their behavior in the moment it is occurring.  It's only others who can recognize the dangerous individual in these situations and intervene.

I have no clue what actually happened to this gentleman, but he was in his 50s - an age group that is much less prone to  wildly reckless behavior than younger folks.  It makes me wonder about serious mental /physical impairment beyond just the normal human frailties.

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I just thank my lucky stars that this sort of thing is of sufficient rarity that when someone does something that profoundly irresponsible we stand up and take notice, rather than say "meh, there goes another one".

Edited by steingar
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Seems like many wrecks in the pre-internet days involved "buzzing" and general wreckless operation. I learned about this when I worked on a volunteer fire department and some of the old guys told tales of the airplane wrecks. After searching the NTSB database I found all of them. One of the best wrecks was when a group of golfers were extremely over-beveraged and were ejected from the golf course. One of them owned a Bonanza and decided that they should all pile into it and buzz the golf course. Well they got in a few low passes until they turned it into a lawn dart. 

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12 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I disagree.  I think poor judgement, irrationality and faulty decision-making are normal states of the human condition, and require no additional explanation.

The goal is to find ways to mitigate those faults that everyone is capable of.  Blaming the on unspecified "mental health issues" is another way of saying "it'll never happen to me."

I don't see any evidence of poor judgement. This isn't a VFR pilot who finds himself in IMC despite a mountain of evidence it was likely. This sounds more like a guy who cognitively accepted the risk for the thrill of it. Similarly few would say that the act of climbing mt Everest is poor judgement but the risk of death is very high.

His calculus of risk/thrill was just different than ours. But it was his life to live on his terms and he didn't own anything to us.

Don't forget that for 90% of the public climbing into a small airplane is in itself an act of lunacy. You could just drive a safe Volvo. Your risk calculus may vary.

-Robert

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Just now, RobertGary1 said:

His calculus of risk/thrill was just different than ours. But it was his life to live on his terms and he didn't own anything to us.

-Robert

He agreed to fly responsibly when he rented the airplane, and whoever he rented from is now down one Mooney.  And our pool is small, crashes like this raise our rates.  Wasn't just his life, not at all.  And I really hate to think about those he left behind.

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7 hours ago, DXB said:

"Poor judgement, irrationality and faulty decision-making" being normal states of the human condition is undoubtedly true, and finding universal approaches to mitigate those faults in ones self is entirely appropriate.  But it is not a cop out to say those approaches will never help everyone. It's just a depressing reality. We've all seen people for whom the self-insight needed is impossible because of their mental and/or physical state.  For example a bipolar person in manic phase, suicidality, behaviors driven by drug addiction, even an unrecognized brain tumor or other brain injury. Such people can be  utterly powerless to control their behavior in the moment it is occurring.  It's only others who can recognize the dangerous individual in these situations and intervene.

I have no clue what actually happened to this gentleman, but he was in his 50s - an age group that is much less prone to  wildly reckless behavior than younger folks.  It makes me wonder about serious mental /physical impairment beyond just the normal human frailties.

Mental conditions may be factors in some cases, but there is no evidence that they comprise a significant fraction of accidents, much less a majority.

An additional argument is that the proportion of people involved in accidents through pilot error that suffer from an impairing mental condition is significantly lower than the general population, since, by definition, those conditions are impairing and would make completing a complex task such as pilot training less likely.

Again, I emphasize recognizing wildly reckless behavior as being an extension of normal human behavior, because if we fail to recognize the parts of human nature that exist in all of us (including difficulty judging our level of risk), we are more prone to falling prey to those very things

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4 minutes ago, steingar said:

He agreed to fly responsibly when he rented the airplane, and whoever he rented from is now down one Mooney.  And our pool is small, crashes like this raise our rates.  Wasn't just his life, not at all.  And I really hate to think about those he left behind.

That is the argument that was used to ban large sodas in NYC and proposals to ban candy bars elsewhere; that your personal choices affect others either financially or emotionally. I guess its a philosophical difference of opinion, but I believe each man owns his life and doesn't owe his life to the convenience of others.  Not really a debatable point but a personal philosophy. 

-Robert

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If he owned the airplane he’d be more careful. He didn’t own it and having paid no money for it he didn’t value it. He only paid to rent it. The place he rented from is down one perfectly good airplane and we are all saddled with increased premiums. I feel sorry for the ones left behind and the owner of the airplane. I feel very saddened for the fate of that beautiful Mooney. It deserved better than that jackass. A lot better.  He inconvenienced a lot of innocent people with his selfishness, his sheer incompetence and stupidity. He was an idiot in my book.

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