I need some help with my Continental TSIO-360 LB

[Bigpunch8]

So I have a 1979 M20K, 75 hours into a new top end overhaul, the number 3 cylinder vibrates and broke 2 of the bolts holding it to the engine. After proper break-in procedure based at KSNA. I have done some research and from what I can find, it could of happened if the seal wasn’t prefect and over time the vibration cause the suds to break. The mechanic that did the top end doesn’t want to take any responsible and claims it’s because of the way I flew the plane LOP. He thinks all the cylinder could have been burnt up. He recommends doing an overhaul exchange at 1,000 hours it’s only $35,000. I feel like he just wants to wash his hands with everything, and cover his tracks.. Has anyone ran into similar problems? This is my first plane, and I really don’t know how to proceed.... 

[Guest]

Improper torquing of the hold down nuts and studs is a more likely cause of failed studs.  I would question the torquing of the nuts on the other cylinders as well.

Clarence

[MikeOH]

What's the shop's name at KSNA so I can stay the HELL away from them?

(Claiming that LOP caused this???  What.a load of BS!)

Edited June 3, 2019 by MikeOH

[Niko182]

3 hours ago, Bigpunch8 said:

So I have a 1979 M20K, 75 hours into a new top end overhaul, the number 3 cylinder vibrates and broke 2 of the bolts holding it to the engine. After proper break-in procedure based at KSNA. I have done some research and from what I can find, it could of happened if the seal wasn’t prefect and over time the vibration cause the suds to break. The mechanic that did the top end doesn’t want to take any responsible and claims it’s because of the way I flew the plane LOP. He thinks all the cylinder could have been burnt up. He recommends doing an overhaul exchange at 1,000 hours it’s only $35,000. I feel like he just wants to wash his hands with everything, and cover his tracks.. Has anyone ran into similar problems? This is my first plane, and I really don’t know how to proceed.... 

Is this 231LE? First thing I'd do is get a second opinion. Obviously he doesn't know what hes talking about. considering he recommended a top and stated is "only" 35 grand. I'm also based a JW. Whats the mechanic. I would also like to keep my distance.

 

Also a bit confused on the timeline. so it did get an overhaul or it will be getting an overhaul.

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

Sorry to hear of the problems. 

If you can’t fly the plane elsewhere for service I fear most of your options are expensive.   

 

[Niko182]

down to the south west side, ask jay to take a look at it. Hes done some work for me and I've been pretty happy with it.

Jays aircraft maintenance.

[Bolter]

@M20Doc, if this was incorrectly done on each cylinder, can you identify it on the remaining cylinders, other than waiting for a failure?  Could you torque check each bolt and stud, and if any had relaxed you know it was was yielded during installation and should be replaced?  Or is the only proactive option to remove and replace every stud and through bolt?

Another question, since all cylinders were replaced at once, this would not just be the lack of a blanking plate to leave the thru bolts torqued while the cylinder was off?

thanks, -dan

[Bigpunch8]

1 hour ago, Niko182 said:

Is this 231LE? First thing I'd do is get a second opinion. Obviously he doesn't know what hes talking about. considering he recommended a top and stated is "only" 35 grand. I'm also based a JW. Whats the mechanic. I would also like to keep my distance.

 

Also a bit confused on the timeline. so it did get an overhaul or it will be getting an overhaul.

 

I got a topend overhaul, after 75 hours the number 3 jug started to separate. He is recommending now to send do an overhaul exchange of the whole engine to fix all the problems.

[Bigpunch8]

1 hour ago, Dan at S43 said:

@M20Doc, if this was incorrectly done on each cylinder, can you identify it on the remaining cylinders, other than waiting for a failure?  Could you torque check each bolt and stud, and if any had relaxed you know it was was yielded during installation and should be replaced?  Or is the only proactive option to remove and replace every stud and through bolt?

Another question, since all cylinders were replaced at once, this would not just be the lack of a blanking plate to leave the thru bolts torqued while the cylinder was off?

thanks, -dan

Yeah all of them were replaced at the same time.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Dan at S43 said:

@M20Doc, if this was incorrectly done on each cylinder, can you identify it on the remaining cylinders, other than waiting for a failure?  Could you torque check each bolt and stud, and if any had relaxed you know it was was yielded during installation and should be replaced?  Or is the only proactive option to remove and replace every stud and through bolt?

Another question, since all cylinders were replaced at once, this would not just be the lack of a blanking plate to leave the thru bolts torqued while the cylinder was off?

thanks, -dan

At very least all of the studs on the affected cylinder will need replacement.  I would be backing off the nuts on the other cylinders one cylinder at a time and re-torquing them per the manual.

Clarence

[carusoam]

Congrats, sort of, on your first posts, Bigpunch8...

There are a few threads around here on LOPs of the K’s engine...  

Many people do it with good engine monitors...

Without a good engine monitor, it can be more challenging.

Nothing scarier than having an exhaust failure of a TC’d engine.   The high pressured escaping exhaust gasses have a tendency to act like a cutting torch under the cowl... while dumping CO in front of the firewall...

How did you detect the exhaust system falling apart?

Got an engine monitor?

Got a CO meter?

Read M20Doc’s responses a couple of times.... he really is the Doc.   

Best regards,

-a-

[Austintatious]

Ehh,  Top end overhauls are notoriously problematic.  I have vowed to never do one unless the engine comes all the way off the aircraft and it is done by continental... at that point might as well just OH.

 

The problem with doing a top end overhaul is the torquing of the hold downs.  If they are not torqued properly ( and in this case" properly" is a big word to unpack.. it isnt just making sure you set the torque wrench properly... the threads actually have a coating from production that aids in reducing friction... new hardware MUST BE USED) then the repeated increase in pressure in the cylinder works the bolts and leads to failure.  when the engine is on the aircraft, getting into a good clean position with nothing in the way and no excessive extension on the wrench becomes difficult.  There have been lots of articles on this subject.  Just google "Beware the top end overhaul"

Sorry you have to deal with this.  I'd be losing my mind.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Austintatious

[RLCarter]

1 hour ago, Austintatious said:

The problem with doing a top end overhaul is the torquing of the hold downs.  If they are not torqued properly ( and in this case" properly" is a big word to unpack.. it isnt just making sure you set the torque wrench properly.................... There have been lots of articles on this subject.  Just google "Beware the top end overhaul

.the problem is not following the manufacturers procedures, not knowing how to properly use/hold a torque wrench and not truly knowing what you are doing. My guess the failure rate of replaced cylinders is very very low. I have met some really talented A&P and IA's but I've also met a few that I wouldn't let them change the oil in my lawnmower. 

[Aerodon]

I've flown behind TSIO360's for more than 2000 hours.  Had the following failures:

1) popped a cylinder head of (cracked thread on head).  Back in the days of factory overhauled chrome cylinders.  Only 200 hours since overhaul, replaced under warranty.

2) seized valve leading to valve strike and cylinder replacement.  Contaminated bits went upstream in the induction system and wrecked two more cylinders.  Lead to you overhaul.

3) Pretty much done a top overhaul on all my engines at around 1000-1200 hours.  It's definitely something that needs to be done by someone with experience.

In your situation:

1) I would get someone to go speak to your previous mechanic and find out exactly what he did and when he last had his torque wrench calibrated.  (the guys at Savvy?)

2) Make a decision early on if you are just going to walk away or start compiling evidence for a claim.  Or report to FAA as an incident, leave them to investigate.  I always try the no blame approach first - the objective to to find out what went wrong, what the status of the other cylinders etc.  If he had all the proper tools, the proper specs, procedures etc. and you have confidence that he followed them then it helps.  Go to the shop and ask him for some time to sit down and go through the paperwork - copy of the procedures, the actual torque wrench used, the parts list (new through bolts?) etc.  I can't tell you how many times I've asked for specs and seen the mechanic squirm and ultimately unable to provide them.  Thats fraud. If your guy is being non cooperative or shoving the blame back on you, I would throw him under the bus.

3) Sadly, I would have no confidence in the work done to date - now you need to find someone you will help you work through the options - I would say the minimum is redoing the top overhaul with new hardware, maximum is throwing in the towel and doing an overhaul.  And I don't believe Continental will give a full core credit for a non-working engine.  Find an engine guy or shop that can do an IRAN for you.

4) And then the hard part.  If you repair the engine, you still have a mid life engine with a  bit of negative history.  So your airplane value might be average or slightly below average.  If you install a Factory Reman, your plane is probably worth $20-30k more. 

 

Aerodon

[Guest]

Having been in the maintenance profession for 35 years I’d say that cylinder failures of this nature are exceedingly rare.  In fact I can only think of 2.  

I’ve seen more failures in materials than failures of installation, yet we have a whole industry telling us to never take a cylinder off an engine!  BS in my experience.

You need a maintainer with a current copy the maintenance manual, proper tools and a proper attitude and an owner willing to pay for these items.

Clarence

 

 

[RLCarter]

18 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

yet we have a whole industry telling us to never take a cylinder off an engine!  BS in my experience.

I just don't get it....one person makes a statement and now it gospel