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Does Anyone Have a KI300?


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I have a KI-300 installed since March 2019. It replaced my SigmaTek backup AI. Works like a charm, I am a happy camper. For now, however, it is installed just outside of my six pack, replacing that Sigmatek backup-AI, not the primary KI-256. The reason is that the KA-310 autopilot adapter isn't available yet, hence no connection to my KFC-200 Autopilot/Flight Director.

The somewhat cheaper Garmin G5 was NOT an option for me because the G5 does not offer any attitude interface for it to be connected to my KFC200 Autopilot / Flight Director. It would have worked if I would have replaced the entire autopilot system with a - surprise, surprise - Garmin model.

Aspen didn't work for me either. The evolution seems to offer  such an interface, but it looks to me like it explicitly requires a vacuum driven backup system or - surprise surprise - a second Aspen systsem. I on the other hand am still dreaming about getting rid of both of my vacuum pumps and everything that is connected to them.

So I hope my primary AI will stay alive until the KA-310 becomes available. At that time, my KI-300 will be relocated to the top center of my six pack and take over from my KI256. 

Hope that helps...

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6 hours ago, juergenklicker said:

I have a KI-300 installed since March 2019. It replaced my SigmaTek backup AI. Works like a charm, I am a happy camper. For now, however, it is installed just outside of my six pack, replacing that Sigmatek backup-AI, not the primary KI-256. The reason is that the KA-310 autopilot adapter isn't available yet, hence no connection to my KFC-200 Autopilot/Flight Director.

The somewhat cheaper Garmin G5 was NOT an option for me because the G5 does not offer any attitude interface for it to be connected to my KFC200 Autopilot / Flight Director. It would have worked if I would have replaced the entire autopilot system with a - surprise, surprise - Garmin model.

Aspen didn't work for me either. The evolution seems to offer  such an interface, but it looks to me like it explicitly requires a vacuum driven backup system or - surprise surprise - a second Aspen systsem. I on the other hand am still dreaming about getting rid of both of my vacuum pumps and everything that is connected to them.

So I hope my primary AI will stay alive until the KA-310 becomes available. At that time, my KI-300 will be relocated to the top center of my six pack and take over from my KI256. 

Hope that helps...

So you're the guy that bought the one that they sold  :)

I waited patiently for a few years and finally went with the Aspens

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A month or so ago I got  my 340A back from Sandia after it failed in turbulence.  I use it for a backup behind a KI256.  I have put about 35 hours on the 340A since I got it back.  I did a trip to Fairbanks from Denver to confirm its reliability..  I flew in a lot of turbulent weather and the 340A seemed to work.  Until this last trip a I had reservations about the 340A which is the same as the KI 300.  The remaining question is how well it will direct the autopilot.  When the wings are level the 340A might show a few degrees of turn.  I am not sure that calibration of roll is warranted.  King will have to explain this to me before I buy the KI 300/310.  I am sure they will get their act together by OSH but I am not which OSH.

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21 hours ago, FoxMike said:

A month or so ago I got  my 340A back from Sandia after it failed in turbulence.  I use it for a backup behind a KI256.  I have put about 35 hours on the 340A since I got it back.  I did a trip to Fairbanks from Denver to confirm its reliability..  I flew in a lot of turbulent weather and the 340A seemed to work.  Until this last trip a I had reservations about the 340A which is the same as the KI 300.  The remaining question is how well it will direct the autopilot.  When the wings are level the 340A might show a few degrees of turn.  I am not sure that calibration of roll is warranted.  King will have to explain this to me before I buy the KI 300/310.  I am sure they will get their act together by OSH but I am not which OSH.

Kind of like the “free beer tomorrow sign”.....tomorrow comes and the sign says the same thing.....

 

Personally I don’t know why someone, anyone else hasn’t designed a replacement that will provide the proper inputs to the AP.  There are a large (in aviation numbers) of these installed units and with the terrible MTBF a lot of people looking for a better solution.  While my software experience is databases, I can’t see this being a hugely complex issue, up, down, left right and some rate of change numbers and you have the basics.  I realize a gross simplification just random thoughts.  

Signed,

hopeful KI-256 replacement searcher.

 

 

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  I share the same hope but feel pretty confident that Garmin will price it like a new iPhone.

  I've been wondering about the problems with the Sandia 340A and its failing during turbulence. My KI256 failed during turbulence with the KFC200 doing sudden steep banks in IMC, not a pretty picture. What I am wondering is how the supposedly "solid state" instruments fail. I'm guessing maybe the accelerometers used in these instruments have microscopic defects. Since they are rather small devices and probably pretty cheap, do the fancier (read:more expensive) new AIs have several of these devices and take a vote? I'm wondering what Sandia might have gotten wrong to make the AI fail. Just bad parts?

  One of my least favorite times is when the KFC200 resigns due to abrupt changes in altitude, etc, usually in a convective cell. The idea that a flaky AI could both knock out the AP and misinform the pilot sounds like something out of an NTSB report.

  I'd really like the the KI300 to be a viable primary AI and attitude source for the KFC200. I never want to appear in anything that says NTSB.

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, johnw413 said:

  I share the same hope but feel pretty confident that Garmin will price it like a new iPhone.

  I've been wondering about the problems with the Sandia 340A and its failing during turbulence. My KI256 failed during turbulence with the KFC200 doing sudden steep banks in IMC, not a pretty picture. What I am wondering is how the supposedly "solid state" instruments fail. I'm guessing maybe the accelerometers used in these instruments have microscopic defects. Since they are rather small devices and probably pretty cheap, do the fancier (read:more expensive) new AIs have several of these devices and take a vote? I'm wondering what Sandia might have gotten wrong to make the AI fail. Just bad parts?

  One of my least favorite times is when the KFC200 resigns due to abrupt changes in altitude, etc, usually in a convective cell. The idea that a flaky AI could both knock out the AP and misinform the pilot sounds like something out of an NTSB report.

  I'd really like the the KI300 to be a viable primary AI and attitude source for the KFC200. I never want to appear in anything that says NTSB.

Then stay out of convective cells .. lol

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On 6/25/2019 at 4:30 PM, johnw413 said:

  It does help. It'll be interesting once the KA310 is available.

  Maybe there will be news at Oshkosh. I can dream, can't I?

 

Oh, there'll be news at Oshkosh. There always is. They'll probably tell us it'll be "shipping in Q4" or some such crap, but I guarantee there won't be a year attached to that. After all, they've been telling us the KI-300 would be shipping in Q4 since 2015.

On 6/30/2019 at 10:44 AM, Mark89114 said:

Personally I don’t know why someone, anyone else hasn’t designed a replacement that will provide the proper inputs to the AP.  There are a large (in aviation numbers) of these installed units and with the terrible MTBF a lot of people looking for a better solution.  While my software experience is databases, I can’t see this being a hugely complex issue, up, down, left right and some rate of change numbers and you have the basics.  I realize a gross simplification just random thoughts.  

Word is that Garmin will have something G5-ish that'll do it at OSH. Eagerly awaiting that myself. 

On 7/2/2019 at 8:50 AM, hypertech said:

There are rumors swirling around Garmin might have a G5 interface box at Oshkosh.  I hope they are true and it doesn't cost $5k.  Aerovonics also has autopilot integration on their product road map for mid-2020.

Yeah, that!

Now, I expect that the G5 + interface box will cost around $5K-$7K. If you look at Sarasota's price for the G5 of $2249 and the GAD 43e of $4389, that gives you an idea of what their existing stuff costs. (The GAD 43e is the box that works with the G500/TXi to provide control of legacy autopilots.) They're also going to be competing with King eventually, so the $5300 price point of the KI-300 + KA-310 is going to be squarely in their sights. 

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I hope it’s not the gad43e. That’s overkill and it doesn’t make sense. At $5k you are nearly to the price of a whole autopilot. A $1500 box to emulate only the ki256 so the whole package is 4-5k with the G5 makes sense. 

It’s also out of line with the cost of the aerovonics solution.  Aerovonics looks to be the real competitor to the G5 here  it would do Garmin well to stay ahead of it and at a similar price  

A correctly priced interface box does work for me. I would install that and continue to fly my kfc225 until it needs a more expensive repair. Then pull it and install the Gfc500.

I would sign up for a ki256 replacement solution right away. I have an install date for a g5 hsi in February. I will be placing my hardware order immediately and changing that to a dual g5 install if the rumor is true and priced right. 

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  I've wondered about a similar, dual-G5 setup but am concerned about replacing the KI525A. I haven't priced the cost of the Garmin add-on to replace the flux-gate setup of the KI525.

  Aerovonics  might be competitive if it's not vaporware. Their timetable looks ambitious and I wish them well.

  All things being equal I'd prefer Garmin just because I have a 530W with 210 Bluetooth and a GTX335. As always, installation cost becomes a major factor. Hopefully the AP adapter will not be a deal-killer but never underestimate Garmin's ability to charge what the market will bear.

 

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On 7/2/2019 at 1:40 PM, johnw413 said:

One of my least favorite times is when the KFC200 resigns due to abrupt changes in altitude, etc, usually in a convective cell. 

Do your autopilot a favor and give it a rest during severe turbulence. Disengage it and hand fly instead.

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  Sound advice, but the circumstances were that I entered IMC and after a few minutes started ascending rapidly. I was flying over Houston and ATC wasn't allowing much deviation off course. There was no turbulence, severe or otherwise,  just an ascent that the altitude hold couldn't handle. It was over 20 years ago. My point had to do unexpected loss of AP control, regardless of why. In the more recent case there was no severe turbulence but the KI256 started to do weird things in mild turbulence. It would have been problematical whether I was hand flying or not.

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On 7/7/2019 at 12:16 PM, hypertech said:

I hope it’s not the gad43e. That’s overkill and it doesn’t make sense. At $5k you are nearly to the price of a whole autopilot. A $1500 box to emulate only the ki256 so the whole package is 4-5k with the G5 makes sense. 

It’s also out of line with the cost of the aerovonics solution.  Aerovonics looks to be the real competitor to the G5 here  it would do Garmin well to stay ahead of it and at a similar price  

A correctly priced interface box does work for me. I would install that and continue to fly my kfc225 until it needs a more expensive repair. Then pull it and install the Gfc500.

I would sign up for a ki256 replacement solution right away. I have an install date for a g5 hsi in February. I will be placing my hardware order immediately and changing that to a dual g5 install if the rumor is true and priced right. 

I do expect the whole package to be about $5K or less. Aerovonics looks interesting, but I have doubts as to whether they can certify both the instrument and the autopilot interface, remain at their stated price point, and remain in business. If they pull that off, awesome! I wouldn't be surprised if Garmin bets against them by pricing the new solution closer to King's stated target price if not above.

Something that can keep my KFC150 going for the moment and then later drive a GFC 500 and serve as a backup to the G3X Touch, complete with miscompare monitoring, that's priced reasonably, is something I will plunk my money down for immediately. Of course, I'll still be crossing my fingers that my KI-256 lasts until Q2 next year which is the soonest I'll be able to get into the shop for an upgrade! :o 

On 7/7/2019 at 12:41 PM, johnw413 said:

  I've wondered about a similar, dual-G5 setup but am concerned about replacing the KI525A. I haven't priced the cost of the Garmin add-on to replace the flux-gate setup of the KI525.

You mean the GMU11 magnetometer? Pretty sure that's included with the G5 HSI, which is why it costs more than the G5 AI.

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2 hours ago, flyingcheesehead said:

I do expect the whole package to be about $5K or less. Aerovonics looks interesting, but I have doubts as to whether they can certify both the instrument and the autopilot interface, remain at their stated price point, and remain in business. If they pull that off, awesome! I wouldn't be surprised if Garmin bets against them by pricing the new solution closer to King's stated target price if not above.

I looked at how the AI interfaces to the autopilot, and it's technically simple enough I could design a way to make a digital attitude signal into the analog signals the AP needs, and I barely know anything about analog design, the box itself would be fairly cheap. The other 99.99999% is the certification part.

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3 hours ago, flyingcheesehead said:

You mean the GMU11 magnetometer? Pretty sure that's included with the G5 HSI, which is why it costs more than the G5 AI.

  From Garmin:

" When paired with an affordable GMU 11 magnetometer ... G5 can serve as your primary reference source for magnetic heading,..."

  It sounds to me like you need the GMU11 to drive the G5 as its slave. I still haven't looked up the cost as I want to see a real product that does what I need. Hopefully they'll offer a package deal...

  I agree that a digital -> analog box would be easy, but most companies, especially Garmin, price according to what we're willing to pay, which depends on alternatives and the all-important installation cost, which is often more than the HW itself. I recently paid about $2500 to remove an old AM/FM cassette player and replace it with a black aluminum panel plate. I'm also guessing there will be a jam at the end of the year for people who have put off the ADS-B upgrade. Nothing boosts prices like a gov't mandate.

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1 hour ago, johnw413 said:

  It sounds to me like you need the GMU11 to drive the G5 as its slave. I still haven't looked up the cost as I want to see a real product that does what I need. Hopefully they'll offer a package deal...

They've offered that package deal since the day the HSI first shipped If you buy the one marked 'HSI' it comes with the GMU11.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/garmin_g5_dghsi.php

Click on the 'In the Box' tab.

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On 7/10/2019 at 6:41 PM, johnw413 said:

  From Garmin:

" When paired with an affordable GMU 11 magnetometer ... G5 can serve as your primary reference source for magnetic heading,..."

  It sounds to me like you need the GMU11 to drive the G5 as its slave. I still haven't looked up the cost as I want to see a real product that does what I need. Hopefully they'll offer a package deal...

As Steve said, they've always offered the "package deal". The reason their site is worded that way is that the AI version of the G5 does *not* come with a GMU11 by default, so in those instances the G5 shows ground track instead of magnetic heading IIRC. If you buy the G5 HSI version (which is more expensive because it does include the GMU11), the GMU11 is included.

In either case, it's a great upgrade over the KI-525A.

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I too am looking to replace the steam gauges in my 231 with a dual G5 setup (AI and HSI). I already do have one G5 installed as a backup for the AI (located where the TC used to be). Thought I would do the full upgrade get a 2nd G5 as HSI, have the existing G5 moved to the AI position and replace my trusted KFC200 with the GFC500. Then I received the quote from my avionics shop and had to realize that this would set me back more than 40 AMUs and requires about 4-6 weeks installation time (the lion's share attributed of cost and installation time attributed to the GFC500) :-( 

What I learned in the process is that the Garmin G5 STC covers moving the analogue KI256 to the location of the TC. I.e. one can install G5s for AI and HSI in the middle of the '6-pack' and keep the KI256 which is required to drive the KFC200 and then serves as a backup AI.

This is the solution I am now going for and which will hopefully serve as a step in the right direction in terms of an upgrade path to either a GFC500 or if Garmin makes up their minds in term of designing an autopilot interface which fully (i.e. pitch and roll) interfaces to a legacy King autopilot. Cost about 30 AMUs less than the scenario with the GFC500...

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5 minutes ago, GER Mooniac said:

What I learned in the process is that the Garmin G5 STC covers moving the analogue KI256 to the location of the TC. I.e. one can install G5s for AI and HSI in the middle of the '6-pack' and keep the KI256 which is required to drive the KFC200 and then serves as a backup AI.

...

Cost about 30 AMUs less than the scenario with the GFC500...

Unless something has changed with the stc moving the 256 is not legal if it’s equipped with a flight director.  The aspen/g500/etc can relocate and utilize it for a backup because they display the FD. 

It would be nice if Garmin can out with an interface (gad43 type box) for the G5. However, the cost of the unit and install will not be inexpensive. My guess is 20-25% of the gfc500 cost which would be a sunk cost if you upgraded to the Garmin AP eventually. But that’s true with almost all things aviation.  

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1 hour ago, GER Mooniac said:

I too am looking to replace the steam gauges in my 231 with a dual G5 setup (AI and HSI). I already do have one G5 installed as a backup for the AI (located where the TC used to be). Thought I would do the full upgrade get a 2nd G5 as HSI, have the existing G5 moved to the AI position and replace my trusted KFC200 with the GFC500. Then I received the quote from my avionics shop and had to realize that this would set me back more than 40 AMUs and requires about 4-6 weeks installation time (the lion's share attributed of cost and installation time attributed to the GFC500) :-( 

What I learned in the process is that the Garmin G5 STC covers moving the analogue KI256 to the location of the TC. I.e. one can install G5s for AI and HSI in the middle of the '6-pack' and keep the KI256 which is required to drive the KFC200 and then serves as a backup AI.

This is the solution I am now going for and which will hopefully serve as a step in the right direction in terms of an upgrade path to either a GFC500 or if Garmin makes up their minds in term of designing an autopilot interface which fully (i.e. pitch and roll) interfaces to a legacy King autopilot. Cost about 30 AMUs less than the scenario with the GFC500...

40 seems very high. I got quoted 18amu for the autopilot with 4 servos, and another 8.5amu for dual g5's. Id look at some different shops.

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17 hours ago, Niko182 said:

40 seems very high. I got quoted 18amu for the autopilot with 4 servos, and another 8.5amu for dual g5's. Id look at some different shops.

Just to be clear - about 13 AMUs for the GFC500 w/ three servos, about 4 AMUs for the G5 HSI and about 200 work hours (which here in Germany equates to 20 AMUs) for the installation.

 

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On 7/6/2019 at 4:39 PM, flyingcheesehead said:

Word is that Garmin will have something G5-ish that'll do it at OSH. Eagerly awaiting that myself. 

That would be sweet. I expect them to enable the G3X touch to provide attitude ref to my KFC150 before they do it for the G5. But you never know. They may do it for both G3X touch and G5. I also expect them to add a comm to the 175 and 375. I predict they'll introduce a new similar box probably with a comm.

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