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Impossible Turn...POSSIBLE?!


HRM

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used the flight simulator and c172 loaded to play with this.800 ft was the altitude to make it back to the airport.   That is not the runway ll the time.   Just somewhere on the airport.   You have to be comfortable with a face full of ground as you are turning.  Unless you have practiced recently, it's probably not going to work out well.   I did the sick engine turn back. flying mostly inside the fence.  don't want to try much of this kind of flying with the Mooney wing.  

 

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Glider flying really got me to thinking about the impossible turn.  I have a self launching glider with a retractable engine...and while it is a glider, it doesn't glide very well with a dead engine hanging out of it.  I have modified the way I fly my pattern so that I am able to make the "impossible turn".  It is somewhat tailored to the conditions at the field I fly out of, but the concept is that once I run out of room strait ahead, I make a 45 degree turn to the right or left depending on which way has better off field conditions.  Then as I climb, and I reach about 300 feet, should the engine fail I can just teardrop right back in to the downwind landing.

As I am just getting my mooney and getting back into SE flying, I will definitely be thinking about different points of departure and the best options.

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10 hours ago, Yetti said:

used the flight simulator and c172 loaded to play with this.800 ft was the altitude to make it back to the airport.   That is not the runway ll the time.   Just somewhere on the airport.   You have to be comfortable with a face full of ground as you are turning.  Unless you have practiced recently, it's probably not going to work out well.   I did the sick engine turn back. flying mostly inside the fence.  don't want to try much of this kind of flying with the Mooney wing.  

Our slick Mooneys should require less altitude than a draggy Cessna that won't reach Vne in a vertical dive.

But the need to do so is.not something that I look forward to, any more than an emergency descent at 2000+ fpm. I need to practice that descent again, may do engine out practice the same flight (but at different times!). Most of my engine out work has been landings not on takeoff . . . . Make that CFI earn his paycheck. If there was a restaurant around, I'd throw in lunch. 

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52 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

Glider flying really got me to thinking about the impossible turn.  I have a self launching glider with a retractable engine...and while it is a glider, it doesn't glide very well with a dead engine hanging out of it.  I have modified the way I fly my pattern so that I am able to make the "impossible turn".  It is somewhat tailored to the conditions at the field I fly out of, but the concept is that once I run out of room strait ahead, I make a 45 degree turn to the right or left depending on which way has better off field conditions.  Then as I climb, and I reach about 300 feet, should the engine fail I can just teardrop right back in to the downwind landing.

As I am just getting my mooney and getting back into SE flying, I will definitely be thinking about different points of departure and the best options.

Don't know much about glider ops.  Does the FAR/AIM not apply?  Clearly states straight out until TPA if departing pattern or if remaining in the pattern xwind at or above TPA-300. 

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24 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Don't know much about glider ops.  Does the FAR/AIM not apply?  Clearly states straight out until TPA if departing pattern or if remaining in the pattern xwind at or above TPA-300. 

The field I fly out of is a private field with mainly glider ops... even the tow planes make this same turn.  It is standard practice at the field.  I seem to be the only self launch guy that makes the turn however.

I should have clarified that shortly after making the 45 degree turn, I then turn back parallel to the runway... this puts me in a position so that I can make a descending 180 turn and be lined up with the runway.  This turn is also AWAY from the downwind leg of the traffic pattern.   basically I offset my departure path AWAY from the traffic and in a position where a 180 takes me to the downwind landing.  In the glider, this is perhaps a 500 foot offset from the runway line.

This maneuver is not a huge departure from the prevailing traffic pattern.  However it adds a great deal of safety to the departure.

The AIM is not exactly regulatory and I do not see anything in the FAR that strictly prohibits this offset.  A strong crosswind and flying runway heading could very easily put one in the same position.

 

That being said, I was not making the post suggesting that anyone do this in their Mooney at public fields.

 

 

Edited by Austintatious
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At my last Mooney Safety Foundation PPP my instructor offered to show me the impossible turn (at altitude), I declined and later wished I had done it. Basics: 500' AGL, maintain Vy, maintain 45 deg bank - there may be some other considerations, e.g. make the turn into a crosswind...

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1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

At my last Mooney Safety Foundation PPP my instructor offered to show me the impossible turn (at altitude), I declined and later wished I had done it. Basics: 500' AGL, maintain Vy, maintain 45 deg bank - there may be some other considerations, e.g. make the turn into a crosswind...

practice it on your own at 4500',  Bob. Climb at vy to 4500,  chop power, count to 5 to simulate your brain rejecting the notion you might die if you screw up make a 270 deg turn, 45 degree bank into the wind , pitch for best glide at your given weight, and see how much altitude you lose. You will find a safe altitude will be about 800' to consider a turn back to the airport. It can be done in less, but in a real scenario, use 800, youll need it.

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12 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

practice it on your own at 4500',  Bob. Climb at vy to 4500,  chop power, count to 5 to simulate your brain rejecting the notion you might die if you screw up make a 270 deg turn, 45 degree bank into the wind , pitch for best glide at your given weight, and see how much altitude you lose. You will find a safe altitude will be about 800' to consider a turn back to the airport. It can be done in less, but in a real scenario, use 800, youll need it.

When I knew it was coming while practicing with my CFI we did it lower than 800' but on my own when I run through altitudes and speeds before takeoff 800' is the number I brief as necessary for a possible turn back.

As has been mentioned, the 45° bank has you looking at a lot of ground in the windscreen as you come around. It is a little disconcerting and you have to focus on the bank angle, airspeed, and staying coordinated. 

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13 hours ago, carusoam said:

Vso of a C152... 35kias

West Palm Beach...

https://skyvector.com/airport/F45/North-Palm-Beach-County-General-Aviation-Airport

Does the student come back after an engine out experience early on?

what killed the engine?  Does the CFI come back after the engine out experience?

Best regards,

-a-

Yes to both. It's part of the game. If you fly little airplanes long enough you WILL lose an engine. I got a ride back to stuart and was in the air teaching again within the hour. I lost the engine in a cherokee 6 on base at that same airport a few weeks earlier. We got a restart on final. That airport is like the cone of death for me:)

Some sort of carburator malfunction. 

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10 minutes ago, Pete M said:

Yes to both. It's part of the game. If you fly little airplanes long enough you WILL lose an engine. I got a ride back to stuart and was in the air teaching again within the hour. I lost the engine in a cherokee 6 on base at that same airport a few weeks earlier. We got a restart on final. That airport is like the cone of death for me:)

Some sort of carburator malfunction. 

I am always curious when an engine goes through the trouble to stop running and then decides it will run again during the restart.  I've always speculated that most low wing aircraft with engine failures that result in a restart involve switching the fuel selector to the tank that still has fuel in it...

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2 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I am always curious when an engine goes through the trouble to stop running and then decides it will run again during the restart.  I've always speculated that most low wing aircraft with engine failures that result in a restart involve switching the fuel selector to the tank that still has fuel in it...

Exactly. Pilot switched tanks on downwind and missed the indent. Oops!

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5 hours ago, Austintatious said:

Glider flying really got me to thinking about the impossible turn.  I have a self launching glider with a retractable engine...and while it is a glider, it doesn't glide very well with a dead engine hanging out of it.  I have modified the way I fly my pattern so that I am able to make the "impossible turn".  It is somewhat tailored to the conditions at the field I fly out of, but the concept is that once I run out of room strait ahead, I make a 45 degree turn to the right or left depending on which way has better off field conditions.  Then as I climb, and I reach about 300 feet, should the engine fail I can just teardrop right back in to the downwind landing.

As I am just getting my mooney and getting back into SE flying, I will definitely be thinking about different points of departure and the best options.

There was an article about this in a recent AOPA Pilot, suggesting the 45 degree turn on takeoff.  I can't recall if they suggested upwind or downwind.

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15 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

There was an article about this in a recent AOPA Pilot, suggesting the 45 degree turn on takeoff.  I can't recall if they suggested upwind or downwind.

Probably "into" the wind to minimize return-to-the-field distance. 

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3 hours ago, Pete M said:

Exactly. Pilot switched tanks on downwind and missed the indent. Oops!

One of the reasons I do my tank switch well away from the airport on the descent.  The other is of course that i have to engage in autofellatio to change tanks.  Hard to look out for pattern traffic doing that.

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4 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

practice it on your own at 4500',  Bob. Climb at vy to 4500,  chop power, count to 5 to simulate your brain rejecting the notion you might die if you screw up make a 270 deg turn, 45 degree bank into the wind , pitch for best glide at your given weight, and see how much altitude you lose. You will find a safe altitude will be about 800' to consider a turn back to the airport. It can be done in less, but in a real scenario, use 800, youll need it.

Sure Mike.

Vy is close enough to best glide... in my E, clean, I'd want to pitch for ~ 90 kias, bank to ~ 45 deg and then be heads up to judge and adjust... the last would be hard to simulate at 4500 agl... 

270 degree turn?... into the cross wind?...   

long runway might allow gear down if lined up at 50' AGL otherwise gear up for very short "roll" out.

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1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

I was thinking downwind to give you more separation to make the turn to field.  :unsure:

That is correct... if possible, go downwind...  this make the offset occur quicker and reduces how quickly you must turn to line up with the runway for a downwind landing

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Bob,

180 will point you in the right direction, but you are left or right of the runway, you need 2 more 45 deg turns to line up. Total = 270. Practice this at altitude, Bob. What you are after is the altitude loss number. Once you have that, you know your absolute minimum turn back to the airport. No need to adjust, 45 Deg is the most efficient bank. 

Once you have that altitude, I use it as a "kill zone" checklist item. Ill raise flaps, check ldg light off, verify gear up, lower nose to cruise climb from Vy, adjust the turbo models MP accordingly.

 

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4 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Bob,

180 will point you in the right direction, but you are left or right of the runway, you need 2 more 45 deg turns to line up. Total = 270. Practice this at altitude, Bob. What you are after is the altitude loss number. Once you have that, you know your absolute minimum turn back to the airport. No need to adjust, 45 Deg is the most efficient bank. 

Once you have that altitude, I use it as a "kill zone" checklist item. Ill raise flaps, check ldg light off, verify gear up, lower nose to cruise climb from Vy, adjust the turbo models MP accordingly.

 

Mike, I assume you've done the math on all this. 

At Vbg and 45 deg bank it takes 15 seconds to turn 180 degs, right? 

At Vbg and 45 deg bank according to the glide ratio for my E at gross weight it appears the rate of descent is about 875'/min.

Executed with precision, it seems turning back (180 degrees) can be done in ~220' of altitude. Add to that what it might take to get lined up. Your 2 45 deg turns should be a worse case. With any cross wind those turns are reduced. Then add to that whatever margin of error you like with consideration for what the terrain ahead looks like. Just don't stall it dummy! 

ISTM the key is prior planning. If I lose the engine on T.O. what am I going to do? At 1000' AGL? At 800..., 600... 400...? Monitoring the changing context should be priority one for the first minute after rotation. 

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I tried this a few times today while I was up doing some airwork.  To do a 180, first attempt took 700' (way too fast after dropping the nose, well above Vy); second attempt was 450' (took too long to get the 45 degree bank); third attempt at sloppy Vy and aggressive bank initiation  took 400'.  I'd be more concerned about getting down in the airport cleared area than actually finding the runway, so I didn't try the 180 plus two 45s.  Practice would probably get it down to 300-350' or less.  Interesting experiment.  If you're practiced and primed for this maneuver at 600' or more, turn into the wind. and be aggressive it should be successful, but maybe not pretty.

I'm adding this to my periodic airwork.

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The goal is to reverse as quickly as possible. T/O flaps, gear up, roll it up onto the wing tip and pull it around. It's amazing how fast that nose reverses. If you have more speed than vy or vglide dont slow to those numbers. Use the extra energy to pull it around.

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3 minutes ago, Pete M said:

The goal is to reverse as quickly as possible. T/O flaps, gear up, roll it up onto the wing tip and pull it around. It's amazing how fast that nose reverses. If you have more speed than vy or vglide dont slow to those numbers. Use the extra energy to pull it around.

The 'pucker factor' here is a steep, nose-down attitude in order to maintain enough airspeed to avoid stall.

As someone else put it, the airfield is flat and has all sorts of landing surfaces other than runways (taxiways, parking areas, the ramp, etc.). So what if you take out a few (expensive) lamps :lol:

9432_4.jpgOn sale for just $219.99 at Sporty's.

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Performing this maneuver at altitude is very different than flying it near the ground. Most of us don't fly steep descending turns below 500' AGL on a regular basis. Two things conspire to increase the risk of stalling: First, we have trained to pull g's in a steep turn to hold altitude and the primacy of this training is strong. In this maneuver, you have to unload the wing to keep the airspeed up. As the Navy guys say, "unload for knots." Second, the sight of a windshield filled with earth in unnerving and creates a very strong desire to pull the nose up which just tightens the spiral. The first effect is counteracted by practice. For the second, force yourself not to fixate on the view directly over the nose, but look up through the top of the windshield and all around from side to side to take in the big picture of where you are going. 

Skip

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7 minutes ago, Pete M said:

The goal is to reverse as quickly as possible. T/O flaps, gear up, roll it up onto the wing tip and pull it around. It's amazing how fast that nose reverses. If you have more speed than vy or vglide dont slow to those numbers. Use the extra energy to pull it around.

Pete, you want to defend that position?

Vbg and 45 deg bank are being taught to reverse course with minimum loss of altitude. Going faster than best glide will cost more precious altitude. Banking steeper than 45 deg will require airspeed greater the best glide to avert a stall.

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While we are on it.  Practice when the engine dies in take off configuration shoving the nose over.   Should be immediate and with force by muscle memory.    I don't even remember doing it when the engine hiccuped at Midland.   Even in replay mode which I have done many times.    Funniest part of that was the guy that was with me his dad is an AA pilot.   His only response was "Get him up and flying again"   I fixed the plane and flew it home so that was not an issue. Since I have another FR coming up I may just tell the Commander to go ahead and pull a bunch of stuff on me without warning and load me up see how I respond.  

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