Impossible Turn...POSSIBLE?!

[HRM]

So, apparently a new thing is the notion that the 'Impossible Turn' is indeed possible. The prophet of the concept is American Airlines ATP Brian Schiff who not only has done it, but practices it. See the attachment link for his worksheet. Apparently the FAA may be warming to the concept.

Anybody done this in their Mooney?

Possible Turn Worksheet (PDF)

[steingar]

Lotsa guys have died trying it.  My thinking is it'll hurt me less to crash the airplane under control than to stall/spin trying to make it back to the airport.  

[Hank]

Someone managed it in a Mooney with engine trouble, somewhere in PA in the winter, landed on the crosswind runway. Seems AOPA used his in-cockpit video with audio in a Safety video. Call it 2009? 2010? 2011?-ish or so. I remember the heavy breathing and coming between the trees in the turn [rather than over the last ones]. A good job, but not something to experiment on the first time with no power.

[Skates97]

30 minutes ago, Hank said:

Someone managed it in a Mooney with engine trouble, somewhere in PA in the winter, landed on the crosswind runway. Seems AOPA used his in-cockpit video with audio in a Safety video. Call it 2009? 2010? 2011?-ish or so. I remember the heavy breathing and coming between the trees in the turn [rather than over the last ones]. A good job, but not something to experiment on the first time with no power.

We practiced it in the Cherokee when I was doing my PPL and also in the Mooney with my transition training. IF you have enough altitude (as in it doesn't happen right on takeoff) it can be done. When we did it he typically pulled power on me about 5-800' AGL when we were getting ready to turn crosswind. In the Mooney from that point it was easy to get back to the runway. The biggest thing I learned from practicing it was how much the nose had to be pointed down throughout the turn to stay on speed. He would talk me through it, "watch your speed, watch your bank, stay coordinated, watch your speed, stay coordinated..." It was a little disconcerting turning back with the windscreen basically full of the ground.

I say out loud distances and altitudes prior to every takeoff. If I lose my engine early on departure I am looking for the best place ahead (or slightly left/right) to put it down. If I am at 800' AGL I know I have other options.

[wiguy]

 Let’s add a 15 kt headwind component to your takeoff, once you turn, now it’s an added tailwind. Like anything, there are no absolutes(almost never). If low, options besides straight ahead are very limited.

[jaylw314]

I think the turn back to the airport is an option that needs to be at least considered, especially since it's the nearest flat, uninhabited area.  The turn back to the runway might be impossible, but that doesn't mean the turn back to the airport isn't.  If you're in the middle of a dense populated area, I'd take my chances at landing fast on the infield grass over landing slow into a bunch of buildings and cars.

I've tried it a couple times above 3000 ft, but it's clearly not the same as doing it near the ground.  FWIW, I know that it takes at least 500' to make the turn back to the airport, but I'm sure you need another 200-400' to deal with any delay in your reaction and lining up with the runway (or picking a flat area).  I'm not sure my technique is good either

[rbridges]

14 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

but I'm sure you need another 200-400' to deal with any delay in your reaction and lining up with the runway (or picking a flat area).  I'm not sure my technique is good either

I think that's the kicker.  Those precious seconds where your brain is registering the problem.  

[jaylw314]

5 minutes ago, rbridges said:

I think that's the kicker.  Those precious seconds where your brain is registering the problem.  

Wasn't there a NASA study about delayed reaction?   The minimum expected human delay is about 4 seconds?

[Ragsf15e]

I’ve practiced since my airport has no decent place on departure from either runway.  My personal minimum is 1000’ agl.  I can do it lower when I practice at a safe altitude but I’m ready and have it all planned out.  It’s a 45degree bank with lots of nose down.  Would not be comfortable.

[MARZ]

I've seen that video many times - each time (armchair quarterback for sure) I always wonder why he didn't go left - no trees, one less turn that would contribute to altitude loss.....   

[mike_elliott]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Someone managed it in a Mooney with engine trouble, somewhere in PA in the winter, landed on the crosswind runway. Seems AOPA used his in-cockpit video with audio in a Safety video. Call it 2009? 2010? 2011?-ish or so. I remember the heavy breathing and coming between the trees in the turn [rather than over the last ones]. A good job, but not something to experiment on the first time with no power.

It was Dave Keller, Feb 2006, Anderson In. (KAID) Mooney m20C, 2 blade ":)

[Shadrach]

5 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

It was Dave Keller, Feb 2006, Anderson In. (KAID) Mooney m20C, 2 blade ":)

‘Twas an E model to be precise.

[steingar]

I will tremulously point out that there were clear fields on all sides in the video.

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, wiguy said:

 Let’s add a 15 kt headwind component to your takeoff, once you turn, now it’s an added tailwind. Like anything, there are no absolutes(almost never). If low, options besides straight ahead are very limited.

Yep, practicing it at Ontario in the Cherokee with an 18 knot headwind on takeoff had us landing almost halfway down the 10,200' runway after turning back.

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

I think the turn back to the airport is an option that needs to be at least considered, especially since it's the nearest flat, uninhabited area.  The turn back to the runway might be impossible, but that doesn't mean the turn back to the airport isn't.  If you're in the middle of a dense populated area, I'd take my chances at landing fast on the infield grass over landing slow into a bunch of buildings and cars.

I've tried it a couple times above 3000 ft, but it's clearly not the same as doing it near the ground.  FWIW, I know that it takes at least 500' to make the turn back to the airport, but I'm sure you need another 200-400' to deal with any delay in your reaction and lining up with the runway (or picking a flat area).  I'm not sure my technique is good either

I second that.

[mike_elliott]

32 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

‘Twas an E model to be precise.

Humm, thought for sure it was a C, but I only saw Dave a half dozen times and could be wrong.

 

[Shadrach]

11 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Humm, thought for sure it was a C, but I only saw Dave a half dozen times and could be wrong.

 

I stand corrected...  my apologies.

[carusoam]

1) Practice, practice, practice...

2) at altitude, at altitude, at altitude...

3) We (the Mooney World) have a survivor of a stall at traffic pattern altitude...

It involved trees (the cause), a garage (final resting place), a family of three, a pro pilot,  and a lot of luck...

 

We also have the memory of @Canopyman...

 

The first thing that surprises me while practicing... how fast airspeed bleeds off... get the nose down, NOW.

The second surprise... how fast the descent rate actually is, dirty, when below Vy... and worse when slower....

Pushing the nose down feels hard to do... logically, it is easy to do... (are you more logical?)

 

Some more pleasant memories are the ones where landing a Mooney straight ahead worked well... including staying conscious while mowing trees... included a fire on the ground...  we have many positive straight aheads on record...

 

know how much energy is required to execute the turn. Know where the energy is coming from... (altitude above ground level) 

Below X’ agl... land straight ahead.

Above Y’ agl... this field, or that lake, a street over there... survey options before departure...

Above Z’ agl... The U-turn is possible, but making it back after covering so much distance becomes another challenge...

My favorite off-field field... grew acres of solar panels over the years....

what if.... you start the turn, left or right...? Does one direction offer better opportunities if you run out of altitude/energy?

 

How is your WnB calculation, TODAY? Got that stall chart memorized? How does keeping nose low improve the outcome?

Got an AOAi to keep you from not stalling?

 

Priorities...

1) Don’t stall. This ends the challenge quickly, but unfavorably...

2) Don’t run out of energy. this also ends the challenge, landing straight ahead again... just in a different neighborhood...

3) See if those landing rings on the big G app actually work...   in practice.

4) you either have the energy or you don’t...

5) you either use the energy conservatively, or you don’t...

6) you either started at the beginning of the runway, thinking conservatively, or you accepted the intersection departure....

7) The Schiff ‘s data shows the peak altitude of their well practiced demonstration to be about 800’ agl or so..., not sure what plane they were using...

 

MS has seen some really good days, and some not so good days... let’s actively make every day a good day!  

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

I’ve  practice it quite a bit. I think the best I’ve done is just under 400ft to reverse course. Required an aggressive initial bank angle decreasing as speed bled off. Think descending chandelle.

Edited June 2, 2019 by Shadrach

[icurnmedic]

I don't usually get nervous watching videos, but I must admit, that was scary as H to me. And a lesson!

[thinwing]

4 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I think the turn back to the airport is an option that needs to be at least considered, especially since it's the nearest flat, uninhabited area.  The turn back to the runway might be impossible, but that doesn't mean the turn back to the airport isn't.  If you're in the middle of a dense populated area, I'd take my chances at landing fast on the infield grass over landing slow into a bunch of buildings and cars.

I've tried it a couple times above 3000 ft, but it's clearly not the same as doing it near the ground.  FWIW, I know that it takes at least 500' to make the turn back to the airport, but I'm sure you need another 200-400' to deal with any delay in your reaction and lining up with the runway (or picking a flat area).  I'm not sure my technique is good either

That’s the happy number 500 plus 400 wind,temp,duuuh factor.900 agl at time of engine failure ,than sure I would not think twice at 180 back

[TTaylor]

5 hours ago, Skates97 said:

We practiced it in the Cherokee when I was doing my PPL and also in the Mooney with my transition training. IF you have enough altitude (as in it doesn't happen right on takeoff) it can be done. When we did it he typically pulled power on me about 5-800' AGL when we were getting ready to turn crosswind. In the Mooney from that point it was easy to get back to the runway. The biggest thing I learned from practicing it was how much the nose had to be pointed down throughout the turn to stay on speed. He would talk me through it, "watch your speed, watch your bank, stay coordinated, watch your speed, stay coordinated..." It was a little disconcerting turning back with the windscreen basically full of the ground.

I say out loud distances and altitudes prior to every takeoff. If I lose my engine early on departure I am looking for the best place ahead (or slightly left/right) to put it down. If I am at 800' AGL I know I have other options.

Every time I watch this video the voice in my head is screaming turn left and land on the cross runway.  It would have been so much easier.

[jaylw314]

21 minutes ago, thinwing said:

That’s the happy number 500 plus 400 wind,temp,duuuh factor.900 agl at time of engine failure ,than sure I would not think twice at 180 back

I'm going to use that term from now on!

 

25 minutes ago, icurnmedic said:

I don't usually get nervous watching videos, but I must admit, that was scary as H to me. And a lesson!

I found this one to be the scariest...

 

 

Edited May 30, 2019 by jaylw314

[Pete M]

Learned I could do it and practiced it in my e model in 2003. Had to do it a few months ago in a c152 when the engine quit after take off at 500ft over F45. Worked out nicely:) Student was a bit shaken though:)

Edited May 31, 2019 by Pete M

[1964-M20E]

I put this with knowing your plane.  Determine the altitude you can successfully make the turn.  He has you doing a 360 degree turn and add 50% to the altitude lost during the 360.  We all know the turn in most cases will be more than 180 degrees (unless you have a somewhat perpendicular runway at the end of the runway you are taking off from) but less than 360.  Yes that is a big margin of turning but it will depend on where you are and extra altitude will be a help.

[carusoam]

Vso of a C152... 35kias

West Palm Beach...

https://skyvector.com/airport/F45/North-Palm-Beach-County-General-Aviation-Airport

Does the student come back after an engine out experience early on?

what killed the engine?  Does the CFI come back after the engine out experience?

Best regards,

-a-