Garmin GTX 345 and Flight Stream

[Frank B.]

Hello, I have a question. I currently have a Garmin 530W and a Garmin GTX 330.
It was my plan to have the 330 updated to an ES to meet the ADSB out requirement and also to add a Flight Stream 210 so my iPad running ForeFlight could communicate with my 530W and also receive and display the limited ADSB in, I think it’s the 978 UAT that it will receive and display?  Then I started looking at the Garmin GTX 345. I see that it will receive both the 978 and the 1090 ADSB in signals and It also has free weather. I see that it has a built in Flight Stream. QUESTION, will the Flight Stream that is built into the 345 allow my iPad running ForeFlight to communicate with my 530W for wireless flight planning transfer between the two or will I need to add an additional Flight Stream 210 for the iPad to communicate with the 530W? @jclemens @Alan Fox

Thanks, Frank

[toto]

Although I suspect this is technically possible, flight plan transfer is not currently allowed via the GTX345. You'll still need the Flightstream 210. 

[Bryan]

I have a GTN 750, Flight Stream, and GTX 345.  You can get ADS-B Traffic & Weather as well as an AHRS signal from the GTX345 but it will not allow you to flight-plan transfer.  For that, you will need the FS210 for the GNS navigators.  Having flown behind a lot of GNS 430s and 530s, I would rather have the FS210 to get the flight-plan transfer.

[Frank B.]

4 minutes ago, toto said:

Although I suspect this is technically possible, flight plan transfer is not currently allowed via the GTX345. You'll still need the Flightstream 210. 

Then It looks like I need to upgrade my GTX 330 to ES, add a Flight Stream 210 and use a Stratus 3 for XM, weather, and ADSB in.

[kortopates]

Then It looks like I need to upgrade my GTX 330 to ES, add a Flight Stream 210 and use a Stratus 3 for XM, weather, and ADSB in.

Although XM weather is still superior to FIS-B, the GTX345 is still the superior option.


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[toto]

3 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Although XM weather is still superior to FIS-B, the GTX345 is still the superior option.


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FIS-B getting better though ..

https://www.avwxtraining.com/post/multi-radar-multi-sensor-system-mrms-available-at-a-fis-b-receiver-near-you

[Frank B.]

It actually looks like I will have to use the Garmin GDL 51 or 52 instead of the Stratus 3 due to the fact that the stratus 3 is wi fi and the GDL 51 & 52 are Bluetooth. I am making the assumption that the Stratus 3 would conflict with the Flight Stream 210 since its Bluetooth? I am correct or would there not be any advantages or disadvantages to using the Stratus 3 over the GDL 51 or 52?

Thanks, Frank

[bradp]

I have a 430W with a flight stream 210.  The flight stream reduces workload more than any single piece of equipment I fly with with the exception of GPSS autopilot.  

I have a 330ES and use a stratus 2 for in.  Plan will be to blind mount a GDL—52 or 52R and wire that to an existing aera 660.  Then I’ll have a more modular version of everything a 345 will do but with a battery backup, send both XM and ADSB (they both live in my cockpit now), target trend, XM audio via Bluetooth.  

[Frank B.]

26 minutes ago, bradp said:

I have a 430W with a flight stream 210.  The flight stream reduces workload more than any single piece of equipment I fly with with the exception of GPSS autopilot.  

I have a 330ES and use a stratus 2 for in.  Plan will be to blind mount a GDL—52 or 52R and wire that to an existing aera 660.  Then I’ll have a more modular version of everything a 345 will do but with a battery backup, send both XM and ADSB (they both live in my cockpit now), target trend, XM audio via Bluetooth.  

How will you connect to both the FlightStream 210 and the GDL - 52 at the same time since they are both Bluetooth or can the 52 connect directly to the 210?

[bradp]

I have another RS-232 on the 660 that would get the GDL.  The flight stream doesn’t connect to the GDL at all.  

GDL would connect to iPad via bluetooth 

GDL can connect to audio panel via hardwire or Bluetooth depending on whether you want alerts unmuted 

iPad can conncet to both FS-210 for flight plan transfers and to a GDL for FIS-B and traffic via Bluetooth 

[Frank B.]

29 minutes ago, bradp said:

I have another RS-232 on the 660 that would get the GDL.  The flight stream doesn’t connect to the GDL at all.  

GDL would connect to iPad via bluetooth 

GDL can connect to audio panel via hardwire or Bluetooth depending on whether you want alerts unmuted 

iPad can conncet to both FS-210 for flight plan transfers and to a GDL for FIS-B and traffic via Bluetooth 

So you would have to manually switch the iPad from one Bluetooth connection to the other (iPad to GDL)?

Please forgive me for being slow ..... but I sometimes struggle with technology. I am learning slowly but surely. I long for the days of the Narco MK12 and the KX170’B’s with a knee board and a sectional strapped to my leg!

[bradp]

No worries Frank. I also learned IFR like many of the people here with an en route chart so poorly folded it served as a view limiting device. 

The iPad can maintain multiple connections. 

For me, so can my audio panel.  

The fs 210 can also support multiple simultaneous Bluetooth connections (three I think)

all this wireless conntivity is a blessing and a curse.  I think I spend just as much time organizing iPads and wires as I do my walk around.  However it’s amazing that I have almost all the situational awareness tools (limitations understood) of say an airbus.  Unimaginable stuff even 15 years ago. 

[Frank B.]

25 minutes ago, bradp said:

No worries Frank. I also learned IFR like many of the people here with an en route chart so poorly folded it served as a view limiting device. 

The iPad can maintain multiple connections. 

For me, so can my audio panel.  

The fs 210 can also support multiple simultaneous Bluetooth connections (three I think)

all this wireless conntivity is a blessing and a curse.  I think I spend just as much time organizing iPads and wires as I do my walk around.  However it’s amazing that I have almost all the situational awareness tools (limitations understood) of say an airbus.  Unimaginable stuff even 15 years ago. 

That’s great to know. I was not aware that the iPad could have multiple Bluetooth connections at the same time. Would you see and disadvantages of me running a GDL 52-R over the Stratus 3? I would prefer to have the GDL - R vs something laying on my dash. I was just leaning towards the Stratus 3 so I could be connected to two devices at the same time, one via BT and one wi-fi. If the 52-R has the same or better features in ForeFlight then that’s the way that I will go.

Thanks again, Frank

 

[kortopates]

I routinely connect to 2 Bluetooth devices, either the FS510 and GTX345 in my airplane or FS210 and my portable GDL-39D when instructing in many of the rental aircraft I teach out of. Not a problem. The only reason I make the 2 connections in my personal aircraft is if I was to loose my G500 ADHRS in which case I’ll already be connected to my backup ADHRS in my GTX345. Except for automatic fail over I already have everything via the FS510.

 

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[kortopates]

FIS-B getting better though ..
https://www.avwxtraining.com/post/multi-radar-multi-sensor-system-mrms-available-at-a-fis-b-receiver-near-you

Absolutely, which is great and I use both products. But XM is still far superior for long cross counties. They cut their latency times in half too and unlike ADSb provide full conus coverage of high resolution NEXRAD solution and Metars/TAF for long cross countries.
But I am sure I agree, I keep thinking I’ll eventually drop my XM but I still haven’t let go.


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[toto]

3 hours ago, kortopates said:

Absolutely, which is great and I use both products. But XM is still far superior for long cross counties. They cut their latency times in half too and unlike ADSb provide full conus coverage of high resolution NEXRAD solution and Metars/TAF for long cross countries.
But I am sure I agree, I keep thinking I’ll eventually drop my XM but I still haven’t let go.


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I kept both for a while, but finally dropped XM because (1) the cost seemed exorbitant in light of free options available; and (2) seeing conflicting depictions of weather drove me crazy. 

When I'm bouncing around in the soup, I want actionable data. I feel like a Nexrad source plus a Stormscope gives me a pretty good idea of what's happening. But XM Nexrad plus FIS-B Nexrad really tested my patience, when I saw one picture on one screen and a different picture on another. There's a natural tendency to choose the more optimistic picture. Ultimately I felt like it was better to have one source and use it conservatively than to try to figure out which was the more accurate or timely depiction and then use it to make a conservative decision. 

(And of course it may be that the better decision would be to keep XM and drop FIS-B for the same reasons, but having spent a boatload of change on ADS-B compliance, I really wanted to use the dang thing :))

 

[flyingcheesehead]

23 hours ago, Frank B. said:

Hello, I have a question. I currently have a Garmin 530W and a Garmin GTX 330.
It was my plan to have the 330 updated to an ES to meet the ADSB out requirement and also to add a Flight Stream 210 so my iPad running ForeFlight could communicate with my 530W and also receive and display the limited ADSB in, I think it’s the 978 UAT that it will receive and display?  Then I started looking at the Garmin GTX 345. I see that it will receive both the 978 and the 1090 ADSB in signals and It also has free weather. I see that it has a built in Flight Stream. QUESTION, will the Flight Stream that is built into the 345 allow my iPad running ForeFlight to communicate with my 530W for wireless flight planning transfer between the two or will I need to add an additional Flight Stream 210 for the iPad to communicate with the 530W?

Hi Frank,

At the beginning, you mention a setup with 530W, 330ES, and FlightStream 210, being able to display "limited ADSB in". With those devices, you would have *no* ADS-B In. The 330ES will give you ADS-B Out on the 1090 band. It has no 978 and no ADS-B In.

I have a GTX 345 in my Mooney. It gives you dual band Out and In, plus many of the Connext features. The one thing it does NOT do is flight plan transfer. However, the FlightStream 210 will give you that, and it is worth the money to get the 210 just to have that feature IMO. I have a GTN 750 these days, but I've spent hundreds of hours behind a 430 and I do not miss spinning knobs...

21 hours ago, Frank B. said:

It actually looks like I will have to use the Garmin GDL 51 or 52 instead of the Stratus 3 due to the fact that the stratus 3 is wi fi and the GDL 51 & 52 are Bluetooth. I am making the assumption that the Stratus 3 would conflict with the Flight Stream 210 since its Bluetooth? I am correct or would there not be any advantages or disadvantages to using the Stratus 3 over the GDL 51 or 52?

With Bluetooth, you can connect to multiple devices at once, but throughput and signal strength are limited. WiFi has better throughput and signal strength, but you can only connect to one WiFi network at a time. Bluetooth also requires "pairing" the devices, while WiFi just requires you to connect to the network, and enter a password on one device if there is one. Pick your poison.

WiFi and Bluetooth do not conflict with each other. You can easily connect to both a FlightStream 210 *and* either a GDL 52 or a Stratus 3.

My recommendation would be that if you're going to get a Bluetooth device, you either need to mount it in the panel, or you need to run a Bluetooth antenna to the panel to avoid signal strength issues. I was, until recently, on the board of a flying club with a G1000 DA40. In that airplane, the LRUs, including the transponder, are mounted in the tail - And when we put in the GTX 345R, we found that even the 10-20 feet between the pilot position and the GTX gave us a fairly unreliable Bluetooth connection (we did not have a bluetooth antenna run from the transponder back up to the panel). 

 

I think you have two possible options to go with your 530W, and you should add the FlightStream 210 in both cases to enable flight plan transfer:

1) Upgrade your 330 to a 330ES for Out, add the GDL 52R for In. This might be a little cheaper than option 2, but you won't be able to see traffic or weather on the 530W, and you'll only see 978MHz traffic if you're within range of an ADS-B tower. With the 52R, you'll have the ability to get XM weather on portable devices as well. The big downside is that you won't be able to get traffic or weather on your 530W.

2) Replace the 330 with a 345. The 345 will hook to the 530W as well as portable devices, so you'll be able to receive both bands directly, and get traffic and weather both on the 530W *and* on your portable devices. This is the complete solution - The only thing you wouldn't get compared to option 1 is the option of having XM weather ($ monthly subscription) in addition to the free ADS-B weather.

Hope this helps!

 

Edited May 28, 2019 by flyingcheesehead

[larryb]

I have a GTN650, GTX345, FS210, and a GDL52R. Couldn't be happier. This gives me ADSB weather on the GTN and both ADSB and SXM weather on the iPad and 796. The GDL52R is in the tail and so far I have not had any BT signal strength problems. The iPad maintains 3 BT connections, the FS210 for flight plan transfer, and both the GDL52R and GTX345 for weather.

[Frank B.]

9 hours ago, flyingcheesehead said:

Hi Frank,

At the beginning, you mention a setup with 530W, 330ES, and FlightStream 210, being able to display "limited ADSB in". With those devices, you would have *no* ADS-B In. The 330ES will give you ADS-B Out on the 1090 band. It has no 978 and no ADS-B In.

I have a GTX 345 in my Mooney. It gives you dual band Out and In, plus many of the Connext features. The one thing it does NOT do is flight plan transfer. However, the FlightStream 210 will give you that, and it is worth the money to get the 210 just to have that feature IMO. I have a GTN 750 these days, but I've spent hundreds of hours behind a 430 and I do not miss spinning knobs...

With Bluetooth, you can connect to multiple devices at once, but throughput and signal strength are limited. WiFi has better throughput and signal strength, but you can only connect to one WiFi network at a time. Bluetooth also requires "pairing" the devices, while WiFi just requires you to connect to the network, and enter a password on one device if there is one. Pick your poison.

WiFi and Bluetooth do not conflict with each other. You can easily connect to both a FlightStream 210 *and* either a GDL 52 or a Stratus 3.

My recommendation would be that if you're going to get a Bluetooth device, you either need to mount it in the panel, or you need to run a Bluetooth antenna to the panel to avoid signal strength issues. I was, until recently, on the board of a flying club with a G1000 DA40. In that airplane, the LRUs, including the transponder, are mounted in the tail - And when we put in the GTX 345R, we found that even the 10-20 feet between the pilot position and the GTX gave us a fairly unreliable Bluetooth connection (we did not have a bluetooth antenna run from the transponder back up to the panel). 

 

I think you have two possible options to go with your 530W, and you should add the FlightStream 210 in both cases to enable flight plan transfer:

1) Upgrade your 330 to a 330ES for Out, add the GDL 52R for In. This might be a little cheaper than option 2, but you won't be able to see traffic or weather on the 530W, and you'll only see 978MHz traffic if you're within range of an ADS-B tower. With the 52R, you'll have the ability to get XM weather on portable devices as well. The big downside is that you won't be able to get traffic or weather on your 530W.

2) Replace the 330 with a 345. The 345 will hook to the 530W as well as portable devices, so you'll be able to receive both bands directly, and get traffic and weather both on the 530W *and* on your portable devices. This is the complete solution - The only thing you wouldn't get compared to option 1 is the option of having XM weather ($ monthly subscription) in addition to the free ADS-B weather.

Hope this helps!

 

Thanks for all of the info. What would you guesstimate the cost difference to be between option 1 and option 2?

Thanks, Frank

[flyingcheesehead]

16 hours ago, Frank B. said:

Thanks for all of the info. What would you guesstimate the cost difference to be between option 1 and option 2?

Well, that can vary widely, and a lot of it depends on installation. 

Option 1 (330ES upgrade, GDL 52R, FlightStream 210): IIRC the 330ES upgrade is about $1500, the GDL 52R is $1200, and FlightStream 210 is $1000, so $3700 in equipment.

Option 2 (GTX 345, FlightStream 210): GTX is $5K, FlightStream is $1K, so $6K.

$2300 difference in equipment, but you should check with your installer to see what the difference in installation cost would be.

[Eraaen]

It's all been said above.  I pretty much had your system.  I was able to get a credit for my 335 (helped) sold my GDL...??69 I think. sick of the premiums. I got the 345 and 210 installed.  I've found the Ipad mini 4 needs to be fired up AFTER the 530W is up and running or it won't find it.  I fly in/out of Florida a lot.  The ability to push flight plans with Victor airways to the 530W from my Ipad is worth it!! I haven't found any dead spots for weather.. yet.  But I'm just as comfortable with the weather from the 345 with my storm scope vs XM.  XM always felt like it was showing me the weather was.. seemed farther behind.

[Baker Avionics]

On 5/29/2019 at 10:38 AM, flyingcheesehead said:

Well, that can vary widely, and a lot of it depends on installation. 

Option 1 (330ES upgrade, GDL 52R, FlightStream 210): IIRC the 330ES upgrade is about $1500, the GDL 52R is $1200, and FlightStream 210 is $1000, so $3700 in equipment.

Option 2 (GTX 345, FlightStream 210): GTX is $5K, FlightStream is $1K, so $6K.

$2300 difference in equipment, but you should check with your installer to see what the difference in installation cost would be.

Great list of numbers, but on a different scenario, IF anyone is looking to do a major upgrade and needs a new Navigator, please take a look at the Avidyne IFD's.  They are standard with BT and Wifi and Synthetic Vision.  When used with the Avidyne App, you can have EVERYTHING that is displayed on the IFD on your iPad as well as have Synthetic Vision on the iPad as well if you so choose.  They are the Mercedes of the Navigators and Screens, in my opinion, and Garmin is the Ford/Chevy. Plus the IFD's have both legacy buttons and touch screen for the masses. 

[carusoam]

Use some caution Greg...

We have some people from Garmin here as well... and some fans of their products.

It is not normal behavior to bash the other guys.

It just muddies the waters and nothing gets through after that mess occurs.

The rules are a bit different when MSers give their personal opinions...

As a business you get to perform at a higher level...

PP thoughts only, not a marketing guru...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[vorlon1]

11 hours ago, Baker Avionics said:

Great list of numbers, but on a different scenario, IF anyone is looking to do a major upgrade and needs a new Navigator, please take a look at the Avidyne IFD's.  They are standard with BT and Wifi and Synthetic Vision.  When used with the Avidyne App, you can have EVERYTHING that is displayed on the IFD on your iPad as well as have Synthetic Vision on the iPad as well if you so choose.

Avidyne lost out on my purchase because I am an Android user...

[Jerry 5TJ]

Another variable to contemplate is future support.  The GTX330 series is nearing the end of its production life while the GTX335/345 are current.