Trim position on take-off in a short body?

[mike20papa]

All I can add is that the position of the trim for take off can make a big difference in the way the AC handles during take off.  Not enough up trim and it can be a handful .. I mean a feets full experience.  Get the trim position set so that you don't have to hold back pressure on the yoke during take off to keep it from "over steering" - darting like a squirrel right/left and then it will climb out with little yoke effort, re-trimming.  It took me a long time to finally get this just right.

[chriscalandro]

This is with my I doctor centered on my TO position. I always end up trimming it forward a bit just after wheels up. 

[Prior owner]

8 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

This is with my I doctor centered on my TO position. I always end up trimming it forward a bit just after wheels up. 

Thanks for the pic!

[S.C.]

On 5/24/2019 at 10:00 AM, carusoam said:

SC,

That is some quirky advice to have received...

Some M20C Pilots were given the advice..... you can never get enough up trim in a Mooney... as there is plenty of up trim used when landing flaps are used...

And again plenty of up trim used when the back seats are empty....

But... T/O with the same up trim as landing... that will most likely have the plane’s nose pointing towards the sky under full power...

 

Was your experience anything like this?

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

 

Yes, it was a bit odd at first, but he’d been flying the plane for a while so, I went with the advice given.  That’s why I crank down after landing so I don’t have so much nose up on T/O.  All of us have a different feel.  The great part is, he is my mentor, so we’ve discussed, laughed and shared a beer over the topic.  We’ve flown together since and he doesn’t use as much trim on landing which is why the advice seems to have made more sense.  

[PT20J]

On 5/26/2019 at 10:48 AM, chriscalandro said:

This is with my I doctor centered on my TO position. I always end up trimming it forward a bit just after wheels up. 

You might try aligning the elevator with the stabilizer for a few takeoffs. You will have to pull back a bit to lighten the nosewheel for takeoff (piston planes don’t really “rotate”) and relax the pressure as it accelerates in climb, but you shouldn’t need to touch the trim until you raise the flaps. 

[Herlihy Brother]

RE takeoff trim on my 1964 E, I was taught 20 years ago  to look over my shoulder and make sure the elevator is aligned with the stabilizer for takeoff...

After liftoff, I add about a quarter turn of nose down trim wheel to climb out at 130mph ias or so

[RogueOne]

On 5/27/2019 at 3:59 PM, PT20J said:

You might try aligning the elevator with the stabilizer for a few takeoffs. You will have to pull back a bit to lighten the nosewheel for takeoff (piston planes don’t really “rotate”) and relax the pressure as it accelerates in climb, but you shouldn’t need to touch the trim until you raise the flaps. 

If you do, is it a big deal?  Just trim the plane.  No biggie.

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, RogueOne said:

If you do, is it a big deal?  Just trim the plane.  No biggie.

Well, I think the object is to get a smooth takeoff with a minimum of fuss. As Bob Kromer pointed out at MooneyMAX last week, a steady 5 lb. pull during the takeoff roll will give a smooth liftoff. But, it only works if the trim is set right. 

Skip

[S.C.]

On 5/24/2019 at 10:00 AM, carusoam said:

SC,

That is some quirky advice to have received...

Some M20C Pilots were given the advice..... you can never get enough up trim in a Mooney... as there is plenty of up trim used when landing flaps are used...

And again plenty of up trim used when the back seats are empty....

But... T/O with the same up trim as landing... that will most likely have the plane’s nose pointing towards the sky under full power...

 

Was your experience anything like this?

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

 

-a-

It was quirky advice, but having flown with the pilot I bought the plane from it makes sense, we all fly a little differently.  He was light on the trim, and likes to control with the yolk.  I am much heavier on the trim than yolk, so for me taking off with the same landing trim for take off did exactly what you described.  I was having to force the yolk forward during take off, and after the Johnson Bar was locked in place found myself cranking the trim wheel to get to 500fpm climb.  

Now I consciously roll the trim nose forward as I taxi back to the hanger.  It’s a penciled in part of my post flight check list.  (But I still roll the trim wheel forward during pre-flight to be double sure).

Best,

S.C.

[Greg Ellis]

1963 C model.  This is a photo of my elevator with the trim in T/O position.  Compared to Chris Calandro, mine is pretty even with the horizontal stabilizer.

[RogueOne]

14 hours ago, PT20J said:

Well, I think the object is to get a smooth takeoff with a minimum of fuss. As Bob Kromer pointed out at MooneyMAX last week, a steady 5 lb. pull during the takeoff roll will give a smooth liftoff. But, it only works if the trim is set right. 

Skip

It is rarely (for me) zero trim input to get it just right.  It is not fussy or unsmooth.  It is not a lot of input, but rather a small roll for “just right”.  I think it is great that you have the trim position so well positioned that you have no input.  I don’t fly my Mooney off.  I pull to break roll based on indicated airspeed.  Glad your technique works.  I regularly adjust trim before and after flaps are raised.  The input is a non-event.

[Hank]

This is what I do:  trim on Takeoff if heavy, half the mark Nose Up if light. At 70 mph, pull on yoke then relax some pull when airborne. Like it says here: