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Bounced landings - aft CG ?


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I don’t think that Mooney’s have any more or less elevator (ie control surface elevator) authority than other similarly sized singles.  We do have a whole lot more ability to have en effect on the pitch axis with combined elevator and trim in that we have a moveable horizontal stabilizer.  Think C or P for comparison.  Adjust trim tab in those models and that just adjusts elevator trailing position.  We have elevator plus h stab trim (a design more like a 737 than a  piper).  

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14 hours ago, DXB said:

Very interesting Skip - I've never given this aspect of the system much thought. I have swerved a bit in the past after landing when using a lot of rudder in a strong crosswind, though it's been easily corrected. I guess I know why now. Thinking about getting off the rudder once the mains plant has never been part of my routine, nor has anyone has ever taught me to do this...do other people think about this as a deliberate step?  I  imagine one could put quite a side load on the nose wheel if it touches down at the extremes of rudder travel.  Also partial flap and no flap landings would seem to be more susceptible to problems because they tend to touch down in a flatter attitude.  @Shadrach always has detailed ideas on landing technique - I wonder what his thoughts are on this issue...

I have never run out of rudder doing anything that would be considered normal operations in my mid-body. There have been two occasions where I’ve landed under conditions that tested the limits of the aircraft’s rudder authority. The first time with self-imposed as I deliberately asked for runway 20 when the ATIS was reporting 28036G48.  That worked out OK after a go around but it wasn’t fun and I wouldn’t recommend such a thing unless you’re on your A-game. Second time was having to divert into Martin State (only one runway) with a crosswind component in the high 30ish range. Remembering the first gave me confidence during the second... Skip’s (@PT20J) point about the gear and rudder connection is worth considering, but under most conditions I don’t notice it. I think the reason may be that I unconsciously neutralize the rudder as the nose touches.  I think this is the case because it’s been a hard habit to break when flying Taildraggers. I have to consciously think about holding in the proper control inputs through and after touchdown as my natural inclination is to neutralize.

You can see the inverse of what Skip is talking about really well during the second takeoff in the video I linked. I had a light left to right crosswind (5 to 10 knots)   I was almost perfectly on centerline during the landing but on take off I got hit with a light gust and didnt do a great job of arresting the weather vain to the left. Note the position of the nose gear.    This has all become quite academic as under most circumstances I think all of these airframes land quite well though I personally can’t speak to the long bodies . 

355D867D-4A7D-4FC5-A398-6E65AFD64AB5.thumb.png.7c74d1dacad7c21922fd4a5982e37003.png

Edited by Shadrach
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2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I have never run out of red or doing anything that would be considered normal operations in my mid-body. There have been two occasions where I’ve landed under conditions that tested the limits of the aircraft’s rudder authority. The first time with self-imposed as I deliberately asked for runway 20 when the ATS was reporting 28036G48.  That worked out after a go around but it wasn’t fun and I wouldn’t recommend such a thing unless you’re on youre A-game. Second time was having to divert into Martin State (only one runway) with a crosswind component in the high 30ish range. Remembering the first gave me confidence during the second... Skip (@PT20J) point about the gear and rudder connection is worth considering, but under most conditions, I don’t notice it. I think the reason may be that I unconsciously neutralize the rudder touches.  I think this is the case because it’s been a hard habit to break when flying Taildragger‘s. I have to consciously think about holding in the proper control inputs through and after touchdown as my natural inclination is to neutralize.

 

:o  I bow down to you, my friend!

If you have a left crosswind, before the nose drops you'll have the right pedal forwards.  After the nose lands, you'll be putting a pressure on the right pedal, but the travel should be centered (well, maybe slightly to the right since the wheel may be skipping a little).

Fortunately, when the nose gear lands, the caster produces a centering force like @PT20J pointed out, so the way to think about it is that when the rudder pedals try to move to center, just let them and hold them there.  I think most people do this subconsciously because it's natural and makes sense.  The only people who it doesn't make sense to are people who fly bungee-linked or free-castering nosewheels. 

  • With taildragger wheel landings, you wouldn't change your rudder travel at all through landing as there is no centering force
  • With free-castering nosewheels (like RV's), you'd just only reduce your rudder travel a little bit, since the nosewheel produces only a little centering force.
  • With bungee-linked nosewheels, you'd reduce your rudder travel a little bit more, since the nosewheel produces more centering force
  • With directly linked nosewheels, you reduce your rudder travel to zero (center), since the nosewheel produces all the centering force
Edited by jaylw314
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1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

:o  I bow down to you, my friend!

I think if you’d been there to see it your reaction would have been more like “what is that idiot thinking?”... 

A row of hangars along the runway was acting as a windbreak until I got to taxi corridor which was acting as a wind tunnel. The gear side skidded left which made an awful vibrating groan sound as the right wing lifted. I was side skidding and wheelbarrowing on the nose and left main when I took off and tried again. Second time I was ready for the “wind tunnel” and it went much better. 

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Well, I personally think it's a great idea to practice on a crosswind runway when traffic permits. You never know when you might need that skill for real! Richard Collins used to say something to the effect that personal minimums may be useful for planning purposes, but once aloft, what you see is what you get, and you might just have to shoot an approach to minimums even if that's lower than your "personal" minimum, so you better stay sharp.

Short fields, soft fields, crosswinds, slow flight, steep turns -- all that stuff we were good at one upon a time gets lost if we don't practice.

Skip

 

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19 hours ago, PT20J said:

According to my old PA28 service manual, you are correct regarding early Cherokees. Beginning in 1974, bungees were added to the steering system. The nose wheel fairing aerodynamically centers the nose wheel in flight. There's a service bulletin #291 that details the addition of springs if the fairing is removed. I'm not sure how the retractable Cherokees work w.r.t. nose wheel centering. Usually, some sort of mechanism is required on a retractable to keep the nose wheel from getting cocked during retraction. 

A common methodology is that there is a centering cam inside the nose oleo strut that centers the nosewheel when it goes to full extension.

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On 5/14/2019 at 8:38 AM, carusoam said:

First time...

Should have been a long wide runway.... well practiced in advance...

Using a runway, less than 3k’ is a call for being on your game....

... and if you are new you still haven't gotten time to have a game yet...so I would practice follow *all* of this advice prior to doing the family. 

On 5/14/2019 at 8:38 AM, carusoam said:

 

Go load the plane with bags of sand, nicely strapped in place... get it right with simulated people before using the real ones...

Bags of sand will fly with you again until you get it right...

Non-aviation People will shy away from you after the first go-around.

Best regards,

-a-

 

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Landings.  Sit on the runway before taking off.  Imagine that picture.  Recreate that picture when you land with some nose up.

Here is a bad landing.  Over shot the approach, was too high, was too fast,  Had to use full flaps. Windscreen was dirty.  Touched down mid field.  could have made the turn off 1300' after touch down,  but brake pads are 8 bucks so decided to go to the end 2200 feet.

Though about going around when I was too high over the touchdown marks.  But figured I could make it.

Good landings begin at the threshold on the downwind.

 

 

 

Edited by Yetti
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30% of the time no flaps.  65% of the time half flaps.  Rest would be full flaps.  It depends on conditions and how well I set up the approach.   I think full flaps shoves too much air down on the ground only ups the stall speed by 3 mph and makes for bouncy landings

stallangle.png

Edited by Yetti
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18 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Question for the MS world:

How much flap do you use for a normal landing (and why)?

There is no right or wrong implied in the question; I'm just curious.

 

It depends...

I'm sure @gsxrpilotwill be along shortly for a lengthier answer 

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For a normal or short landing, I always use full flaps. x-winds landings only about 1/2 because of added descent rate from slipping. (Of course formation flying landings are a special case and not "normal".) But generally the goal is always land as slow as possible with full flaps. But with any student having a hard time landing we'll use partial flaps initially since its far easier to flare with partial flaps and that can help a transitioning pilot get the feel of it easier. But we won't stop there, its an intermediate solution IMO, and we'll continue till we can master full flap landings.

Edited by kortopates
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59 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Question for the MS world:

How much flap do you use for a normal landing (and why)?

There is no right or wrong implied in the question; I'm just curious.

 

Full flaps for anything within the realm of normal operations:

1) Better visibility over the nose 

2) Minimal energy into the runway environment 

3) Allows for steeper power off approaches

In general less energy to the runway means asking the less of the gear, bearings, brakes and tires.

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1 hour ago, Yetti said:

Landings.  Sit on the runway before taking off.  Imagine that picture.  Recreate that picture when you land with some nose up.

Here is a bad landing.  Over shot the approach, was too high, was too fast,  Had to use full flaps. Windscreen was dirty.  Touched down mid field.  could have made the turn off 1300' after touch down,  but brake pads are 8 bucks so decided to go to the end 2200 feet.

Though about going around when I was too high over the touchdown marks.  But figured I could make it.

Good landings begin at the threshold on the downwind.

 

 

 

Leaving aside the base to final overshoot, that approach would have been fine except for the speed.  If I didn't know better, I would have guessed that you were setting up to buzz the runway, not land.

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2 hours ago, PT20J said:

Question for the MS world:

How much flap do you use for a normal landing (and why)?

There is no right or wrong implied in the question; I'm just curious.

 

Full flaps 100% of the time unless I'm specifically practicing using less.  I have never had an occasion (yet) that required use of less flaps due to crosswind.  Minimum speed on final, shortest landing roll possible.  Hard enough to maintain on speed on final without operating the engine in the yellow band.  Less drag would likely make that even more challenging.

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Hmmm... I need to get out the GoPro's and shoot some landings.

I'm very comfortable landing my Mooney in any flap configuration. If you're riding with me in the right seat, you can name the flap setting anywhere between the downwind and short final, and I can comply and make the same landing. My preference is probably to land with take-off flaps. It's the easiest landing for me to make. But I'm also comfortable with full flaps or no flaps. It really doesn't matter for me. I'm still on one set of tires, and the same set of brake pads.

I've suggested a couple of times, to Mooney pilots who were really struggling with landings, to try a no-flap landing on a long runway. Each time the landings were much smoother. After a few of those, then go to take-off flaps, and then to full flaps. Anyway, it's worked for those guys. And all landings are much smoother.

Obviously landing over an obstacle to a short strip (<2000 ft), it's full flaps all the way. BTW I've been practicing power-off 180's for the commercial. Those can be done at any flap setting as well.

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15 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Hmmm... I need to get out the GoPro's and shoot some landings.

I'm very comfortable landing my Mooney in any flap configuration. If you're riding with me in the right seat, you can name the flap setting anywhere between the downwind and short final, and I can comply and make the same landing. My preference is probably to land with take-off flaps. It's the easiest landing for me to make. But I'm also comfortable with full flaps or no flaps. It really doesn't matter for me. I'm still on one set of tires, and the same set of brake pads.

I've suggested a couple of times, to Mooney pilots who were really struggling with landings, to try a no-flap landing on a long runway. Each time the landings were much smoother. After a few of those, then go to take-off flaps, and then to full flaps. Anyway, it's worked for those guys. And all landings are much smoother.

Obviously landing over an obstacle to a short strip (<2000 ft), it's full flaps all the way. BTW I've been practicing power-off 180's for the commercial. Those can be done at any flap setting as well.

It's not a new video, but at my former 3000' home field, the trees on final required a level off, then idle power and glide in. Going over the trees was 150' agl after adding power to stop descent, going to idle when clear. Not sure when the brakes were last replaced, but I just did them this year, after buying the plane from another pilot based at the same field (I got 12 years out of the not-new brakes).

My standard pattern is Takeoff flaps / 90 mph by downwind; drop gear abeam intended point of landing; turn base when the runway is 45° behind me, and hold 90 mph; roll wings level on final at 85 mph, slowing to 75 - 5mph per 300 lb below gross (at about where the trees are here); make the stall horn sound just before touchdown. 

I hold speed with the elevator, and use the throttle to manage altitude. Rough targets are base leg at 700agl and final at 500agl, but looking over my shoulder determines where to turn and I adjust throttle / altitude for that turn. Trim is adjusted for hands-off descent, and readjusted as necessary on each leg. Flaps stay at Takeoff until final, when just like throttle, elevator and trim, it's just another control to move so that I land where I want to. This is often closer to the Takeoff than to Landing marks judging from resetting them before takeoff (to Up when nit loaded heavy or at a short field and for me, 3000' isn't short. It's where I got my license, trees and all.).

This is also where I had the nighttime PIO described above . . . . . .

Calm winds generally call for Landing flaps, and sometimes a second attempt. I just can't land the dadgum plane when the wind ain't blowin!

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7 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Hmmm... I need to get out the GoPro's and shoot some landings.

I'm very comfortable landing my Mooney in any flap configuration. If you're riding with me in the right seat, you can name the flap setting anywhere between the downwind and short final, and I can comply and make the same landing. My preference is probably to land with take-off flaps. It's the easiest landing for me to make. But I'm also comfortable with full flaps or no flaps. It really doesn't matter for me. I'm still on one set of tires, and the same set of brake pads.

I've suggested a couple of times, to Mooney pilots who were really struggling with landings, to try a no-flap landing on a long runway. Each time the landings were much smoother. After a few of those, then go to take-off flaps, and then to full flaps. Anyway, it's worked for those guys. And all landings are much smoother.

Obviously landing over an obstacle to a short strip (<2000 ft), it's full flaps all the way. BTW I've been practicing power-off 180's for the commercial. Those can be done at any flap setting as well.

Well yes, anyone should be able to land in any configuration. On the other hand, steering this back to @ChrisV the OP, if one is using a descent profile consistent with power off, full flap landings, 50’ trees almost 1100’ from the threshold (26 Pearson) fall in the realm of just barely relevent especially at your home airport.

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Shadrach, I don't mind the hijacking the thread, it makes for fresh discussion.  The airport I fly at is Camas (1W1), the threshold is 6-700' from the trees.  Landing at Pearson is a piece of cake, just look out for the bridge.  That catches you off guard your first time.

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1 hour ago, ChrisV said:

Shadrach, I don't mind the hijacking the thread, it makes for fresh discussion.  The airport I fly at is Camas (1W1), the threshold is 6-700' from the trees.  Landing at Pearson is a piece of cake, just look out for the bridge.  That catches you off guard your first time.

I've been into Camas a couple times for fuel.  The price is usually competitive and it's Phillips 66 so I have stopped there for my gas on Angel Flight trips to save my $1/gallon.  You are right about the trees on the west end.  One of the few places I don't accelerate to 100 KIAS before I start my climb.

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23 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Chris,
How is flying in/out of Pearson? Last I heard they had some restrictive airspace issues. Do you have to fly a lot of holds at BTG?


Tom

Not that big of a deal.  I think it is essentially the same as it has always been, it just got codified.  If you just stay north of the field, below the 1100' cutout floor, and be sure to call Pearson advisory (PDX tower) before entering the area or taking off, it's not that different than any other pilot controlled airport.  Just be sure to get clearance for takeoff from Pearson advisory before you blast off.

Chris can correct me if I'm wrong.

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I climb like bunk full flaps compared to half flaps.  Scared myself once when my limit switch was out of spec and the flaps jammed down. Murphy’s law indicated go around at that time and I was eeeking our climb performance with some close in obstructions on a hot day.  

Since then I do a threat assessment - high risk of going around? Have the plane already configured for takeoff. It will land fine that way and thrrr are three less tasks to do on go around (forward pressure, trim spooling, and flaps). If it’s gusty with a crosswind I do the same for the same reason.  Although I must admit I have the feel of greater rudder authority carrying a little extra speed on final with half flaps 

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