stec 3100 vs stec 50

[rbridges]

When the MAX upgrade is available for my aspen units, I think I'm going to go ahead and finish my panel.  I have an STEC 50 with altitude hold.  I have manual trim.  I currently have a 430W and will fly it until it gives me problems.  At that point, I'll probably swap it for a 440.  In my situation, does the 3100 do enough to justify such an investment?  Since the form factor is different, I'd have to pay to modify the panel if I were to decide to add it later.

[gsxrpilot]

I think you're in a great position. Frankly I'm a little envious. Changing the panel is relatively simple and cheap, with a little sweat equity. I certainly wouldn't let that hold me up from having such a great autopilot. 

Couldn't you put the 3100 in the center stack? You could hold off on the panel by just plugging the hole left by the 50.

You've already got the Aspen so the MAX upgrade is not that costly and should be almost no labor involved.
With the STEC 50, the upgrade to the 3100 is $10K plus minimal labor as you keep the existing servos.
When ready, the IFD440 will replace the 430W at $0 for install costs. In fact Chase is running a special right now so you might think about doing that upgrade sooner before the 430W loses anymore trade-in value.

Compared to everyone else out there ripping out and replacing whole panels... you've got a simple, relatively cheap, step by step upgrade path. Nice.

[Bob_Belville]

When the MAX upgrade is available for my aspen units, I think I'm going to go ahead and finish my panel.  I have an STEC 50 with altitude hold.  I have manual trim.  I currently have a 430W and will fly it until it gives me problems.  At that point, I'll probably swap it for a 440.  In my situation, does the 3100 do enough to justify such an investment?  Since the form factor is different, I'd have to pay to modify the panel if I were to decide to add it later.

I have preordered, and paid for, the Max upgrade for my Aspen and have the PO in the queue for the upgrade from my STEC 50 to the 3100. The 3100 will go at the bottom of the center stack. Slam dunk in my opinion.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[gsxrpilot]

4 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

I have preordered, and paid for, the Max upgrade for my Aspen and have the PO in the queue for the upgrade from my STEC 50 to the 3100. The 3100 will go at the bottom of the center stack. Slam dunk in my opinion.

Yep, couldn't agree more. I'm in the paid for queue for a MAX upgrade as well. If I had an STEC, I'd be in the PO queue for that as well. 

Since I don't have an STEC, I'm waiting on the AeroCruz. I won't wait forever and might go STEC anyway eventually.

[DXB]

My STEC-30 is pretty much like STEC-50 in terms of functionality. It is a solidly useful autopilot, despite some major limitations (lack of altitude preselect, rate-based inaccuracy).    I am likely to keep using it until it gives major problems and then go with something more modern.    Even with the STEC-3100 reusing the same servos, installed it will cost more than double a Trutrak fresh install, despite not being twice as good.  Also the STEC pitch servos seem to be pretty problem-prone, and I would not be enthusiastic about re-using mine.  So as a CB, it will likely be one of the STCd autopilots from the experimental world when the time comes.  

[gsxrpilot]

These three limitations are deal breakers for me and therefore make the 3100 much more than twice as good as the TruTrak, but just my opinion. Actually #2 is enough to write it off for me.

1. Works with GPS ONLY, no NAV connection. Only certain GPS models are approved for input.
2. Coupled IFR approaches are NOT approved.
3. Contains an internal baro altimeter that must be synced with the OEM altimeter each flight.

[mike_elliott]

11 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Yep, couldn't agree more. I'm in the paid for queue for a MAX upgrade as well. If I had an STEC, I'd be in the PO queue for that as well. 

Since I don't have an STEC, I'm waiting on the AeroCruz. I won't wait forever and might go STEC anyway eventually.

I was curious if Honeywell was purchased by the Chinese also. They certainly are playing the "long" game much in the style of the Chinese. Perhaps a 100 years from now they will be dominating the GA world market having both planes equipped.

[Bob_Belville]

My STEC-30 is pretty much like STEC-50 in terms of functionality. It is a solidly useful autopilot, despite some major limitations (lack of altitude preselect, rate-based inaccuracy).    I am likely to keep using it until it gives major problems and then go with something more modern.    Even with the STEC-3100 reusing the same servos, installed it will cost more than double a Trutrak fresh install, despite not being twice as good.  Also the STEC pitch servos seem to be pretty problem-prone, and I would not be enthusiastic about re-using mine.  So as a CB, it will likely be one of the STCd autopilots from the experimental world when the time comes.  

Are you sure of the double cost? All in? Apples to apples re functionalities? Including installing servos in the case of TT?

FWIW, my STEC pitch servo has worked flawlessly for over 20 years.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[gsxrpilot]

10 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Are you sure of the double cost? All in? Apples to apples re functionalities? Including installing servos in the case of TT?

This.

Not everyone flies low IFR in Mooneys. But they are an exceptionally good traveling airplane and IFR platform is an important part of that capability. So thinking of the resale, I'd be very hesitant to go backwards with autopilot capability. The STEC3100 at $10K + minimal installation (head unit only) is by all reports, a top of the line autopilot comparable to the GFC600 with full IFR approach capability. And if you're flying low IFR, an autopilot that will fly a fully coupled approach to minimums is a very valuable safety feature. 

If the Mooney doesn't have an autopilot or only a wing leveler, then you're stuck with a full servo replacement/install and the TT autopilot is certainly an upgrade. But at $5K+$700 for the STC, then installation (servos + head unit), I'll bet you're within a grand of the cost of upgrading the STEC. And the difference between a fully capable IFR autopilot and a VFR enroute autopilot is worth a lot more than that. And if not to you, it likely will be to the next guy who's thinking of buying your airplane.

[ilovecornfields]

15 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

This.

Not everyone flies low IFR in Mooneys. But they are an exceptionally good traveling airplane and IFR platform is an important part of that capability. So thinking of the resale, I'd be very hesitant to go backwards with autopilot capability. The STEC3100 at $10K + minimal installation (head unit only) is by all reports, a top of the line autopilot comparable to the GFC600 with full IFR approach capability. And if you're flying low IFR, an autopilot that will fly a fully coupled approach to minimums is a very valuable safety feature. 

If the Mooney doesn't have an autopilot or only a wing leveler, then you're stuck with a full servo replacement/install and the TT autopilot is certainly an upgrade. But at $5K+$700 for the STC, then installation (servos + head unit), I'll bet you're within a grand of the cost of upgrading the STEC. And the difference between a fully capable IFR autopilot and a VFR enroute autopilot is worth a lot more than that. And if not to you, it likely will be to the next guy who's thinking of buying your airplane.

I agree completely. Autopilot coupled approaches are awesome when flying single pilot IFR. You still have to monitor the AP and stay on top of it, but anyone who’s flown with an approach capable AP isn’t going to want to go back to a basic VFR AP. 

[DXB]

32 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Are you sure of the double cost? All in? Apples to apples re functionalities? Including installing servos in the case of TT?

FWIW, my STEC pitch servo has worked flawlessly for over 20 years.
 

It's hard for me to find precisely what the upgrade costs to the 3100 will be, but minimum hardware is 10amu (looks like 10.5 for the 30/50 systems). Install is not a simple plug and play affair - I'd be curious to know how much these upgrades have cost other folks. Also I think you may be one of the  lucky ones on the pitch servo.  Mine worked flawlessly for about a year before starting to act up - It's much better now after I started "exercising" the brushes on the ground periodically, but still misbehaves and probably should get pulled at some point.  By the time my STEC pitch servo gets pulled, overhauled/replaced, and reinstalled, I would certainly be over double the cost of a Trutrak, which I understand is designed to be 7 amu all in.  Of course I have zero data on the reliability of the Trutrak option either, but it is a more modern design I hope.

29 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Not everyone flies low IFR in Mooneys. But they are an exceptionally good traveling airplane and IFR platform is an important part of that capability. So thinking of the resale, I'd be very hesitant to go backwards with autopilot capability. The STEC3100 at $10K + minimal installation (head unit only) is by all reports, a top of the line autopilot comparable to the GFC600 with full IFR approach capability. And if you're flying low IFR, an autopilot that will fly a fully coupled approach to minimums is a very valuable safety feature. 

 No question the STEC 3100 is a far superior autopilot - that same system can go in a King Air and meet needs of professionals who are hard core IFR operators.  I would probably also want one if I were heavily invested in a bird as capable as a 252 like you. I also kinda wish the Trutrak could follow an ILS.  But as a rank amateur flying a lowly C model for the long term, needing to break out below 700 agl is likely to stay an unplanned emergency maneuver for me.  And if I get in over my head, the Trutrak will still likely do that job quite well below 700 feet - it's just not certified for it. 

We'll have to see how the costs shake out by the time I can't stand my pitch servo misbehavior any more.  I could end up with a modest aircraft with an absurdly capable autopilot... 

[rbridges]

Can an autopilot fly an approach to minimums with manual trim?

[NJMac]

2. Coupled IFR approaches are NOT approved.

Pretty sure that's not totally true. It won't fly an ILS currently but word is the avidyne will soon be able to convert the ILS analogue signal to digital and then the TT can fly it. Possibly with the help of an Aspen. However it will fly a coupled RNAV out of the box. Believe down to 500 agl.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Hector]

Flew in a Cessna the other day with a TT autopilot. Coupled RNAV approach down to the numbers (I know...legal to 700 I think), but had a stiff crosswind and the TT was flawless. Took over just to flare and touch down. Very impressed.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

1) Seems like we may need to put our lawyer hats on...  the device is capable to fly down to minimums and in some cases below that...

2) It won’t make it legal... PIC has to be there to judge.  The PIC is  going to have to be there anyways...  

2.1) Don’t expect that it will leave you hanging at 700’... or do anything like that...

2.2) When our existing analog equipment fails to receive signals along the way... it doesn’t always tell us it has momentarily gone off line...

2.3) Scalloped patterns are the norm for VOR navigation... nobody seems to mention this very much as a limitation...

 

3) Upgrading one STEC system to the next sounds pretty good... if you have an STEC system already...

4) Some of us updated from Garmin to Avidyne navigators quite easily...

5) Where the wheels fall off... your existing system is so old... the upgrade path is non-existent and it is almost like starting over...

6) Starting with what used to be high end BK navigators and APs and electro mechanical displays... the wait could be incredibly long and cost the same as a blank sheet of paper...

7) Getting to blank sheet of paper still has the cost to remove everything to get ready...

8) Expect somebody to go first...  we are seeing this with MSers that fly other planes that are equipped with the new AP already...

9) Look forward to the good news as it gets delivered... MS has some reliable resources...

10) expect to be disappointed by the tremendous costs involved... to get what you want...

 

PP thoughts only... my 1994 stuff has fallen so far behind in technology, the only upgrade path is going to be remove everything and replace... unless I can drag my feet long enough that BK has some fully integrated modern stuff...

Who wants to be first and connect that KSN770 to the BK AP? 

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

What happens if TT loses GPS? Delay between loss of GPS and indications of failure? It can’t fly headings, so I assume it will disconnect...is there audible alert?


Tom

[Doug Tellef]

On 5/10/2019 at 7:13 PM, rbridges said:

When the MAX upgrade is available for my aspen units, I think I'm going to go ahead and finish my panel.  I have an STEC 50 with altitude hold.  I have manual trim.  I currently have a 430W and will fly it until it gives me problems.  At that point, I'll probably swap it for a 440.  In my situation, does the 3100 do enough to justify such an investment?  Since the form factor is different, I'd have to pay to modify the panel if I were to decide to add it later.

Good Afternoon,

Feel free to give me a call at 817-215-7628 or email me at Doug.Tellef@Genesys-Aerosystems.com and we can discuss the upgrade path.  As was mentioned above you are in a great position to upgrade your system.  Now is the perfect time to put in your purchase order as we have scheduled the Mooney STC to be completed this summer.  If you get the PO in before the STC is issued we will give you an extra year on your warranty.  

We will extend the 2-year warranty to 3 years for all new parts from the factory (new installs and new controllers/servos). Also, we are offering a 2-year warranty on any currently installed S-TEC servos. No matter how old they are.

The extended warranty offer is only valid until we gain the STC. Once that occurs, the regular warranty period will be offered.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Genesys Aerosystems S-TEC 3100 is a fully featured, attitude-based autopilot that gives you a list of workload-reducing and safety-enhancing capabilities that were previously unavailable on aftermarket autopilots. Compatible with traditional steam gauges or advanced digital sources & EFIS displays from various manufacturers, the S-TEC 3100 delivers unmatched features and benefits: 

• Precise, digital flight control for every phase of flight
• 2-axis (3-axis option on some models)
• Automatic Trim included
• Envelope Protection/Alerting
• Straight and Level Recovery
• Precision Approaches/Missed Approaches
• Indicated Airspeed Hold
• Altitude Preselect
• Moreover, much more!

For more information on the 3100 please view this link:

 https://genesys-aerosystems.com/products/s-tec-3100-digital-flight-control-system

 

 Do you already have an S-Tec dealer that you are working with?  If not you can find a dealer here:

https://genesys-aerosystems.com/dealer-locator

 

 

 

Doug Tellef

Inside Sales Representative

P: (817) 215-7628

F: (940) 325-8808

M: (940) 452-4882

Email: Doug.Tellef@genesys-aerosystems.com

Website: www.genesys-aerosystems.com

 

Genesys Aerosystems

Precise Performance, Proven Experience, Personalized Attention

 

[DXB]

13 minutes ago, Doug Tellef said:

Good Afternoon,

Feel free to give me a call at 817-215-7628 or email me at Doug.Tellef@Genesys-Aerosystems.com and we can discuss the upgrade path.  As was mentioned above you are in a great position to upgrade your system.  Now is the perfect time to put in your purchase order as we have scheduled the Mooney STC to be completed this summer.  If you get the PO in before the STC is issued we will give you an extra year on your warranty.  

We will extend the 2-year warranty to 3 years for all new parts from the factory (new installs and new controllers/servos). Also, we are offering a 2-year warranty on any currently installed S-TEC servos. No matter how old they are.

The extended warranty offer is only valid until we gain the STC. Once that occurs, the regular warranty period will be offered.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Genesys Aerosystems S-TEC 3100 is a fully featured, attitude-based autopilot that gives you a list of workload-reducing and safety-enhancing capabilities that were previously unavailable on aftermarket autopilots. Compatible with traditional steam gauges or advanced digital sources & EFIS displays from various manufacturers, the S-TEC 3100 delivers unmatched features and benefits: 

• Precise, digital flight control for every phase of flight
• 2-axis (3-axis option on some models)
• Automatic Trim included
• Envelope Protection/Alerting
• Straight and Level Recovery
• Precision Approaches/Missed Approaches
• Indicated Airspeed Hold
• Altitude Preselect
• Moreover, much more!

For more information on the 3100 please view this link:

 https://genesys-aerosystems.com/products/s-tec-3100-digital-flight-control-system

 

 Do you already have an S-Tec dealer that you are working with?  If not you can find a dealer here:

https://genesys-aerosystems.com/dealer-locator

 

 

 

 Doug Tellef

Inside Sales Representative

P: (817) 215-7628

F: (940) 325-8808

M: (940) 452-4882

Email: Doug.Tellef@genesys-aerosystems.com

Website: www.genesys-aerosystems.com

 

Genesys Aerosystems

Precise Performance, Proven Experience, Personalized Attention

 

Thanks for your post - can you please provide us with a detailed retail price list for the various upgrade paths and the expected install hours?

[Doug Tellef]

21 minutes ago, DXB said:

Thanks for your post - can you please provide us with a detailed retail price list for the various upgrade paths and the expected install hours?

Current list prices as of today are:

• System 3100 list price (not upgrading from a previous S-TEC system) is $19,995 for a 2-axis standard system and $24,995 for the 3 axis standard system.  The King Air models that require the heavy duty servos are an additional price.  
• Upgrading from a 55X to a 3100 is $9,995 (if you already have an S-TEC trim system) or $11,495 (trim not already installed)
• Upgrading from a Dual Axis S-TEC system is $10,495 (with trim already installed) or $11,995 (trim not already installed)
• Upgrading from a Single Axis S-TEC system is $12,495 (with trim already installed) or $13,994 (trim not already installed)
• 3100 Yaw Kit is $5,000

These prices are current as of today, but of course subject to change.  You would need to discuss install times with an authorized S-TEC dealer, however ball park estimates are around 30-40 Hours for an upgrade from a 55X, about 40-50 hours from a Dual Axis system, and about 60 hours from a Single Axis system.  Again these are just estimates, you would need to talk to a dealer to get an actual quote for the install time for your specific application.

Feel free to reach out to me if you have any further questions or need any assistance.  Thank you.

 

Doug Tellef
Inside Sales Representative
P: (817) 215-7628
F: (940) 325-8808
M: (940) 452-4882
Email: Doug.Tellef@genesys-aerosystems.com
Website: www.genesys-aerosystems.com
 
Genesys Aerosystems
Precise Performance, Proven Experience, Personalized Attention

[DXB]

So that puts an install of a STEC3100 with a pre-existing STEC30 or 50 in place without trim at about $16-17amu.   It's a top notch system, but price doesn't seem competitive with very good STC'd systems becoming available like Trutrak or even the Garmin GFC500, so it will not be my upgrade choice.  I kinda wish STEC had a low end upgrade path available.  

[gsxrpilot]

49 minutes ago, DXB said:

So that puts an install of a STEC3100 with a pre-existing STEC30 or 50 in place without trim at about $16-17amu.   It's a top notch system, but price doesn't seem competitive with very good STC'd systems becoming available like Trutrak or even the Garmin GFC500, so it will not be my upgrade choice.  I kinda wish STEC had a low end upgrade path available.  

Waiting to see what actual installation quotes will be, might be the best course right now. Of course you have to wait as none of these autopilots are STC'd for the M20C yet. And only one of them, the GFC500 is STC'd for ANY Mooneys.

I'll wager that when the dust clears, the STEC3100 won't cost any more installed (for someone with an existing STEC) than the TruTrak and will be a lot less than the GFC500 installed. The difference in installation cost for servos vs. no servos will be significant.

So far the Mooneys getting the GFC500 are spending north of $15K and some $25K, just for the install. And even the estimates on the TT install are climbing past $5K and we haven't even seen a Mooney install yet. 

[DXB]

3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Waiting to see what actual installation quotes will be, might be the best course right now. Of course you have to wait as none of these autopilots are STC'd for the M20C yet. And only one of them, the GFC500 is STC'd for ANY Mooneys.

I'll wager that when the dust clears, the STEC3100 won't cost any more installed (for someone with an existing STEC) than the TruTrak and will be a lot less than the GFC500 installed. The difference in installation cost for servos vs. no servos will be significant.

So far the Mooneys getting the GFC500 are spending north of $15K and some $25K, just for the install. And even the estimates on the TT install are climbing past $5K and we haven't even seen a Mooney install yet. 

The Trutrak folks can legitimately claim 20-30 hrs for a new install based on other aircraft where it is approved, and the hardware is much less than 1/2 the cost for me than the STEC 3100 upgrade.  I'm not sure what's up with the GFC500 install costs, but it may be driven by the market created by the ADS-b in mandate, which should affect all installs similarly.

[MIm20c]

20 hours ago, DXB said:

The Trutrak folks can legitimately claim 20-30 hrs for a new install based on other aircraft where it is approved, and the hardware is much less than 1/2 the cost for me than the STEC 3100 upgrade.  I'm not sure what's up with the GFC500 install costs, but it may be driven by the market created by the ADS-b in mandate, which should affect all installs similarly.

I think the price delta between a three axis gfc500 and 3100 (upgrade) will be very small. The extra spent for removal/install of the servo brackets could be negated with a single stec servo overhaul if it fails the test. 

Without a doubt I would go with the 3100 system if your panel has one or more Aspen units.  It’s well worth the $6k difference in price vs the TT for the hardware. I’m still not sure if the Aspen Max is connected to the 3100 if the simplified wiring is usable if the ($2k) unlock is not utilized by the owner.

Just like you I’m sitting on the sidelines with an Aspen and stec 50 that are working well. 

[ArtVandelay]

Does anyone know what a new stec servo costs?
How about overhaul cost?
You have to figure your 20 year old servos will need service long before new ones.


Tom

[Doug Tellef]

3 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Does anyone know what a new stec servo costs?
How about overhaul cost?
You have to figure your 20 year old servos will need service long before new ones.


Tom

Tom, the pitch, roll, and trim servos are in the $3-4k range for the non-heavy duty applications like the Mooney, and overhaul is around $1750.  If you get your Purchase Order in now before the STC is issued for the Mooney series (scheduled for this August) then you will get a new 2 year warranty on your existing servos no matter how old they are.  Please let me know if i can answer any other questions that anyone may have.  Thank you and have a great day!