afward Posted May 10, 2019 Report Share Posted May 10, 2019 (edited) https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20C&listing_id=2327968&s-type=aircraft It seems like a decent deal and I've briefly talked with the owner. He says it just needs IFR cert (and probably an altimeter overhaul) to be fully IFR, which I'll need to have since I'd like to start working on pretty rapidly. Feel free to reply privately. Thanks! Edited May 10, 2019 by afward 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigers2007 Posted May 10, 2019 Report Share Posted May 10, 2019 When (date) was the engine and prop last overhauled? 5k hours so it wasn’t necessarily sitting idle for the last 56 years; a good thing. No-AD hub, ADSB compliance plus shoulder harnesses are nice bonuses. Those shotgun panels are so fugly. Looks decent to me. A good prebuy will be necessary. Damage hx? “All logs”?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKlott Posted May 10, 2019 Report Share Posted May 10, 2019 (edited) I would want a good pre buy to focus on engine condition and airframe corrosion. The two big deal killers in my mind. It seems like the plane has had some decent maintenance and upgrades with the fuel bladders, gear pucks, lightweight starter and alternator. The Stratus ADS-B is another important, positive selling point. The weaknesses include vintage avionics and whether or not the paint and interior appeal to you. If you are happy with the overall condition, the Avionics work and the pre-buy checks out, I think the airplane is reasonably priced. The best part is...it has the curved rear windows! NTSB Identification: CHI73FEP39 14 CFR Part 91 General Aviation Aircraft: MOONEY M20C, registration: N6520U ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FILE DATE LOCATION AIRCRAFT DATA INJURIES FLIGHT PILOT DATA F S M/N PURPOSE ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3-0456 73/2/8 MIDDLETON,WIS MOONEY M20C CR- 0 0 1 NONCOMMERCIAL PRIVATE, AGE 33, 400 TIME - 0815 N6520U PX- 0 0 0 BUSINESS TOTAL HOURS, 90 IN TYPE, DAMAGE-SUBSTANTIAL OT- 0 0 0 NOT INSTRUMENT RATED. NAME OF AIRPORT - MOREY ARPT DEPARTURE POINT INTENDED DESTINATION MIDDLETON,WIS IRONWOOD,MICH TYPE OF ACCIDENT PHASE OF OPERATION GEAR RETRACTED TAKEOFF: RUN PROBABLE CAUSE(S) PILOT IN COMMAND - INADEQUATE PREFLIGHT PREPARATION AND/OR PLANNING PILOT IN COMMAND - FAILED TO ASSURE THE GEAR WAS DOWN AND LOCKED REMARKS- GEAR HANDLE NOT IN THE DOWN DETENT. Full narrative is not available Edited May 10, 2019 by BKlott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKlott Posted May 10, 2019 Report Share Posted May 10, 2019 ------- FAA Accident/Incident 1 ------- Occurrence Date 1984-11-21 Aircraft Make MOONEY Aircraft Model M20C Damage MINOR Document Last Modified 2012-04-19 Narrative ENGINE QUIT AFTER TAKEOFF. LANDED IN FIELD. 2 QUARTS OF WATER IN LEFT FUEL TANK, WATER IN CARBURETOR, GASCOLATOR. ------- FAA Accident/Incident 2 ------- Occurrence Date 1973-02-08 Aircraft Make MOONEY Aircraft Model M20C Damage SUBSTANTIAL Document Last Modified 2012-04-19 Narrative GEAR HANDLE NOT IN THE DOWN DETENT. ***** No NTBS Accidents Found ***** ------- NTBS Pre 1982 Accident 1 ------- Qccurrence Date 1973-02-08 Aircraft Make MOONEY Aircraft Model M20C Aircraft Serial Number 000000002303 Damage SUBSTANTIAL Accident Location MIDDLETON,WIS Occurrences GEAR RETRACTED Phase of Flight TAKEOFF - RUN Causes INADEQUATE PREFLIGHT PREPARATION AND/OR PLANNING FAILED TO ASSURE THE GEAR WAS DOWN AND LOCKED Narrative GEAR HANDLE NOT IN THE DOWN DETENT. ***** No SDR's Found ***** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJMac Posted May 10, 2019 Report Share Posted May 10, 2019 I wouldn't want to learn IFR without a GPS navigator. But that's just me. If its you too, let someone else buy it for you. Sinking panel money into these old planes is prohibitively expensive. Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLev Posted May 10, 2019 Report Share Posted May 10, 2019 (edited) ^^ Agreed, learning IFR without at least a 430 is going to be very challenging. These units really do make IFR flying safer. Edited May 10, 2019 by AlexLev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afward Posted May 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2019 @tigers2007 I forgot to ask him when we talked. It did sound like he flies pretty regularly during the warmer parts of the year, so I don't imagine the overhauls are ancient. @BKlott I'd seen that history already. It's old enough I'm not really concerned, though certainly that would reduce the buyer pool at resale time (should I purchase this one). I did ask about corrosion and his answer was that he hadn't seen any on the front portion of the cage, but that I'd certainly want to have it all looked over during the PPI. Since I plan on a PPI anyway, that's a fair answer. @NJMac I agree, but my target price limit currently doesn't support much that has an IFR GPS and doesn't have a run-out engine. I'll have to discuss that with the household CFO... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted May 10, 2019 Report Share Posted May 10, 2019 I hate to see anyone buy a Mooney without a good moving map GPS and without an autopilot. An engine monitor is also a must have for me, but it can be added inexpensively. The GPS and autopilot are, at the moment, prohibitively expensive to add, and so finding a plane with them can save a lot of money. It also helps with the resell when you're ready to upgrade or get out. Also, for IFR flying, a standard 6-pack panel makes a huge difference as well. For these reasons, I'm not crazy about this plane. I certainly understand budget constraints, but I'll PM you a couple of possible options to compare with. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 10, 2019 Report Share Posted May 10, 2019 Learning IR skills without the GPS isn’t that much of a killer... Living without the GPS afterwards is way more challenging... VFR flying, and basic IFR flying... a pair of VORs and an ILS works pretty well...Most intersections are defined by two VOR lines crossing... the ILS will get you down near to the ground... VFR and portable devices are pretty good together... IFR on a regular basis... find a plane with a Garmin430 that is currently being used IFR in it... The plane listed above is very limited in things most MSers discuss having or wanting to have regularly... What type of flying are you trying to do with this plane? I bought my first Mooney without MS support being available... it was listed as IFR capable... technically true, but it was missing the details required to properly train in... Write a list of what you want your plane to have... Don’t spend too much traveling to see planes when that money may be better spent on hardware and training... That first plane acquisition is a tough one... lots of firsts... Best regards, -a- 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prior owner Posted May 10, 2019 Report Share Posted May 10, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, AlexLev said: ^^ Agreed, learning IFR without at least a 430 is going to be very challenging. These units really do make IFR flying safer. I agree, and around here the examiners will fail the 430 map and you will be taking most of your IFR checkride with nav radios only, so applicants are definitely challenged. The 430 is the way to go as far as actually flying IFR, but can seriously hamper your ability to actually get your rating if you train with it, depending upon the DPE. In contrast, back When I had Part 135 check-rides and we had dual gps, they would fail the map screens and have you hand fly an ILS with vectors- it was no big deal. But we never did an entire ride with no gps. My primary IFR training and IFR check-ride was far more intense than any Part 135 check-ride that I ever had, whether it was in the aircraft or in the sim, simply because no moving map was permitted 90% of the time while I was working towards my rating. Edited May 10, 2019 by PilotCoyote 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank B. Posted May 10, 2019 Report Share Posted May 10, 2019 7 hours ago, afward said: https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20C&listing_id=2327968&s-type=aircraft It seems like a decent deal and I've briefly talked with the owner. He says it just needs IFR cert (and probably an altimeter overhaul) to be fully IFR, which I'll need to have since I'd like to start working on pretty rapidly. Feel free to reply privately. Thanks! In my opinion that’s just about as “inexpensive” as you are going to get into a sound Mooney. Obviously a good PPI is going to determine if it is a solid AF or not. It doesn’t have all the bells and whistles ... but it isn’t 85 AMU’s either. Might very well be a good entry level Mooney that you can always recover your investment on when you are ready to move up to something that has more “features” when your budget allows. I flew Mooney’s equipped very similar to this for 20 years before I got a Mooney that had “most” of the bells and whistles and loved every hour that I flew them. Again ... “Good PPI = solid investment”. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 10, 2019 Report Share Posted May 10, 2019 There are 2 instruments missing, one in the left panel and one in the engine six pack which I think is the oil temperature gauge. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted May 10, 2019 Report Share Posted May 10, 2019 (edited) I think the talk about it being suboptimal to learn to fly IFR without a GPS is untrue. I think learning to fly IFR on needles only will make you a better pilot and will make your ability to maintain situational awareness stronger. Anyone can follow a moving map. I’m not pooh-poohing the great technology we have available today, it’s great for SI. I just believe that from a training standpoint it’s much easier to go from being proficient on steam gauges to glass then the other way around. I use the driving analogy. I learned to drive without antilock or traction control. Seems like every other winter I end up stopping to help some poor soul whose technology has failed them. Several of those times just knowing where to point the wheels and when to apply the throttle is all that is needed. I’ve only been flying for about 20 years but I’ve been around airplanes my whole life. I have a great deal of respect for folks who learned and conducted operations on steam only. It requires one to anticipate and stay ahead of the aircraft in a way that glass does not. Edited May 10, 2019 by Shadrach 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigers2007 Posted May 10, 2019 Report Share Posted May 10, 2019 Good PPI? Buy it, fly it, learn about it, sell it, and get your J model. 34 AMU asking isn't bad. That is about what I paid after the 15 AMU "first annual" to replace many worn parts that were certainly worn out (sloppy links, old rubber pucks, worn out this and that...) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rwsavory Posted May 10, 2019 Report Share Posted May 10, 2019 A newer oil temperature gauge has been added along the bottom of the right hand instrument panel. Also, it looks like there is an autopilot controller mounted on top of the wheel well. You might want to ask seller if it works. Looks like a nice plane. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964-M20E Posted May 10, 2019 Report Share Posted May 10, 2019 Good PPI looking for air frame corrosion and go. Fly it VFR get your IR ticket in it. Hand flying and using VORs is a go god way to get your IR ticket. Afterwards light IMC flying going up or down though a layer to get where you are going this would be a good platform. Decision time comes a few years form now: find a model that has GPS and AP or upgrade this one some lower cost options might be available at that time. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted May 10, 2019 Report Share Posted May 10, 2019 (edited) For $34K that seems like a screaming good deal. ADSB and bladders, so you don't have to worry about leaking tanks. Yeah, its better to have an autopilot, and yeah its better to have an IFR GPS. But for the low thirties you get what you get. Personally, I think so long as this thing passes it's pre buy inspection, its a good deal. If IFR GPS and autopilot are must haves, fine. But you'll pay more for them. Edited May 10, 2019 by steingar 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigers2007 Posted May 10, 2019 Report Share Posted May 10, 2019 With prices dropping for two-axis autopilots, he might actually save money to not have one already. 10-12 AMU for the TT or GFC500 installed. Already ADS-B. So add 16 AMU for a GTN650, GI-106B, GMA 345 installed. Add 9.5 AMU for two G-5’s. Add 0.5 AMU for fresh panel metal. So 36-37 AMU more this will be a dream bird with a mid-time motor with all new modern electronics. Add 5 AMU more and have a GTN750 instead with the hidden audio panel. It’s nice to be able to customize at your own pace and preference. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted May 10, 2019 Report Share Posted May 10, 2019 I would say a standard 6-pack panel arrangement and an HSI are more beneficial to an instrument student than even a GPS and autopilot. After getting the IR, the GPS and Autopilot will be top of the list, but by then you might be ready to upgrade to a J. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afward Posted May 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2019 Wow, lots of good commentary here. I have a lot of thinking to do. For what it's worth, the primary mission is "Take the wife on weekend getaways (no more than 3.5 hours away), vacations, and family visits". Uncommonly we'll have our 6' tall son with us, but that shouldn't be too difficult (probably shorter flight segments, though). Our daughter probably won't ever go with us (college bound in August, and has a bit of an aversion to flying in general). I'm sure I'll also do my fair share of $100 hamburgers, sightseeing, fly-ins, informal pilot meet-ups, etc. Thanks, everyone! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted May 10, 2019 Report Share Posted May 10, 2019 One other thing. Lots of folks decrying the lack of a standard six pack. If you go from one airplane to another, that is a valid criticism. My Mooney is the only airplane I fly and that I ever will fly (might have to sell it soon, unfortunately). If its the only airplane you fly, you get used to the panel however it's laid out and that becomes your normal. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 10, 2019 Report Share Posted May 10, 2019 9 hours ago, Rwsavory said: A newer oil temperature gauge has been added along the bottom of the right hand instrument panel. Also, it looks like there is an autopilot controller mounted on top of the wheel well. You might want to ask seller if it works. Looks like a nice plane. You are correct, I missed the oil temp gauge. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted May 10, 2019 Report Share Posted May 10, 2019 Dissenting opinion - these old birds have stood the test of time and are excellent IFR platforms, so there is nothing wrong with adding WAAS GPS, EFIS, and autopilots to them. Of course it's cheaper to buy one that has these upgrades already, but there are many considerations to balance when buying any vintage plane. If this air frame is in good shape on a prebuy, and it is likely to fit your mission for the long haul, these planes are still an excellent long term value in terms of operational costs after hemorrhaging some money into the panel. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted May 11, 2019 Report Share Posted May 11, 2019 Maybe I’m missing it but I see no low vac annunciator in either panel. I would not consider this plane a safe IFR platform with just a suction gauge in the far upper right corner of the right panel. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afward Posted May 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2019 So an interesting twist: On 5/10/2019 at 7:55 AM, Rwsavory said: it looks like there is an autopilot controller mounted on top of the wheel well. You might want to ask seller if it works. That's a Mooney Autopilot controller, and it is INOP. I found one that looks like it on ebay (an ARC C-593B-2), but my Google-fu wasn't strong enough to find evidence anyone can/does overhaul them. Does anyone know anything about these and whether the box / servos are just dead weight to be removed vs. fixed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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