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Need to replace Cylinder 2 and muffler


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Long story short, I need to replace Cylinder 2 and while we're in there, the muffler appears to have lost all of its internal baffles so it and the tailpipe are candidates for replacement.

Where should I look for cylinders?  I can Google and have found a couple of power assemblies around $2000 but I imagine someone here knows of a better way to source a decent setup.

Similar for mufflers.  I'm looking at AWI but I'm not 100% sure which muffler to get for my IO-360-A3B6D.  Slip Rib or Ball Rib?  Something else?

 

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24 minutes ago, Rwsavory said:

For a cylinder you might want to check with Jewell Aviation in Kennett, MO.  

Thanks!  I just talked w/ David Jewell and I'm going to send him the cylinder and piston.  This man knows his cylinders.

I also think I'm done with LOP.

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1 minute ago, FlyBoyM20J said:

Thanks!  I just talked w/ David Jewell and I'm going to send him the cylinder and piston.  This man knows his cylinders.

I also think I'm done with LOP.

You’re welcome. David and Sam are nice folks.  I just had one of mine reworked and they did a great job at a fair price. 

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When I bought my Mooney, the exhaust baffles were burned out and everything needed replaced from the exhaust manifold back.  I used https://knisleyexhaust.com/.  They "repaired" my existing exhaust, but it appears all brand new.  Another option that I didn't know about at the time was power flow.  A bit pricey, but supposed to give you some extra HP.

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1 hour ago, Rwsavory said:

You’re welcome. David and Sam are nice folks.  I just had one of mine reworked and they did a great job at a fair price. 

David wants me to get the piston off the rod and send it with the cylinder.  Makes good sense to me but I'm having trouble finding any drawing of how the pin is secured in place.  The IO-360 overhaul manual just says to use piston pin removal tool 64834 but omits any further hints.  Did you do this?

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1 hour ago, skydvrboy said:

When I bought my Mooney, the exhaust baffles were burned out and everything needed replaced from the exhaust manifold back.  I used https://knisleyexhaust.com/.  They "repaired" my existing exhaust, but it appears all brand new.  Another option that I didn't know about at the time was power flow.  A bit pricey, but supposed to give you some extra HP.

Thanks!  I contacted Kinsey and asked for a quote.  I'll look into power flow.

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Did you get the piston off?

The piston pin is free floating and you should use a 3/4 inch brass punch. I wrap the working end with duct tape and use a hammer to punch the piston pin out.  It’s easier with two people, one to hold the piston up and one to hold the punch and hammer. DO NOT let the rod  slam down on the crankcase after the piston pin is out.  Easy way is to stuff a rag between the rod and case. After the piston is off you can use the cylinder base Oring to hold the rod in the center of the opening. Do not mover the crank the rod can jam.  Cover the opening with plastic to keep crap out.  Jim

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Keep an open mind... stay cool...

There are plenty of ROP reasons to have these same challenges too...  Including hours on the system.

There is another thread here today discussing strategies for cylinder replacement that may be interesting...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

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10 minutes ago, Jim F said:

Did you get the piston off?

The piston pin is free floating and you should use a 3/4 inch brass punch. I wrap the working end with duct tape and use a hammer to punch the piston pin out.  It’s easier with two people, one to hold the piston up and one to hold the punch and hammer. DO NOT let the rod  slam down on the crankcase after the piston pin is out.  Easy way is to stuff a rag between the rod and case. After the piston is off you can use the cylinder base Oring to hold the rod in the center of the opening. Do not mover the crank the rod can jam.  Cover the opening with plastic to keep crap out.  Jim

Thank you so much for this description. 

The piston is not off.  I decided to wait until I am fresh and prepared, so job is set for tomorrow AM.

I have been studying and have created a couple of different diameter oak dowel punches (1/2" and 5/8"), each 4" long and with a hole drilled through at 1" from one end so that I can use a long zip tie around the piston to hold it in place while I strike it.  I may have to do this by myself tomorrow morning so I was going to use this method to keep the punch in place and use a bungee cord to hold the entire assembly up...which will work until the pin is removed, of course.  I already have a rag over the opening, and another rag on the crank case lower edge to protect against contact between the rod and the case.  I'll add more...like a folded, thick hand towel before I do this just in case the rod comes free.

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On 4/30/2019 at 9:13 PM, carusoam said:

Keep an open mind... stay cool...

There are plenty of ROP reasons to have these same challenges too...  Including hours on the system.

There is another thread here today discussing strategies for cylinder replacement that may be interesting...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

Call me crazy, but I am actually enjoying this process.  I love working on engines and this is a chance to get to work on my own with my A&P.

My only reason for mentioning LOP is that LOP is the only thing I am doing differently from the way the previous owner flew this plane for 10 years.  In 200 hours, I have just seized an exhaust valve with no visible defects, but the JPI EDM-700 traces show evidence of cyclic distress for the last few months (I was negligent in checking them but the evidence is clear in hindsight).

This engine has 1400 hours since remanufacture and 1200 of them were ROP.  So, who knows, really.

I don't really see how LOP is bad for this engine.  CHTs run about 20 degrees cooler and EGT is perhaps only 50 degrees hotter.  But that higher EGT might be what pushed this valve seat over the edge, if it was already compromised.  I just don't know.

I know this is a ired topic and I don't want to dwell on it, but I mentioned LOP to David Jewell and he said "LOP has been keeping us busy".  I'll take that just as he said it...not reading into it, but it does seem like hotter EGTs could be a factor here.

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2 hours ago, FlyBoyM20J said:

David wants me to get the piston off the rod and send it with the cylinder.  Makes good sense to me but I'm having trouble finding any drawing of how the pin is secured in place.  The IO-360 overhaul manual just says to use piston pin removal tool 64834 but omits any further hints.  Did you do this?

Nope.  I am not far away, and they do most of the maintenance on the plane, including annuals.

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Just now, Rwsavory said:

Nope.  I am not far away, and they do most of the maintenance on the plane, including annuals.

Roger, and may I say, lucky you!  I'm happy that I get to do this but I'd be happier to have someone like David do it for me.

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Expect that LOP can keep plenty of people busy...

There are many people that discuss their leaning procedure and we find that their idea of LOP doesn’t match what they are actually doing...

Want to post some JPI graphs?

Many people will post the JPI data to Savvy and drop the link here...

Some people don’t have the luxury of a modern engine monitor.

 

We could Call you crazy, but you are hanging out on MS on a Tuesday night discussing Mooney engine parts... like the rest of us... :)

My O360 stuck an exhaust valve... within the first 10hrs of my ownership... no engine monitor to help, No MS either.

The exhaust system had many challenges with about 5k+ hrs on it...

This was all ROP...

Do you have a CO meter to go with all that?

Best regards,

-a-

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Here's one of my JPI graphs.  This was the last long flight before the C2 exhaust valve seized.  You can see that it was unhappy, especially at taxi. 

You can also see that C2 CHT gets high during ROP climb (to 9K in this case) but settles low at LOP cruise.  I generally do a "big pull" to get LOP and then enrich to calm run, but often use the JPI at intervals to verify my relationship to the peak over a flight.  I generally run 20-30 degrees LOP by eyeballing the peak of the hottest EGT, not by the LOP lean-find algo in the EDM-700.  It corresponds to about where I settle if I just do the big pull and enrich again until the engine runs well.

But when I look at EGT for C4, I think I might also have some issues just around the corner. 

I just bought cylinder wrenches and a differential compression tester.  I'll hold off on the ring compressors since David Jewell is going to install the piston for me and ship it back as an assembly.

 

image.thumb.png.3a3bf21b1b7e83fe64057cc5beb6834c.png

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Great graph, the noisy line is typical of a valve that has stopped rotating.... it usually makes a saw-tooth pattern...

When it stops going up and down, the graph changes a bit.... when the piston crashes into the valve...

Do you have a picture of the valve itself?

Are you familiar with the ‘pizza’ image that it is supposed to have?

A sticking valve will look different than a pizza...

The pronounced graph things early on after start-up is called morning-sickness... as things warm up, they start working properly...

 

For additional info related to cleaning valve guides... there are a couple of procedures that may be of interest... the rope trick, and the wobble test...  DMax (Don Maxwell)is the author of these fine procedures...

You might consider checking and cleaning the other exhaust valves while you are in there...

Use the search function for all the lingo posted above...

It might be worth paying Savvy to look at /analyze your graph...   see how smooth the EGT lines are after 15:40?... they ran nicely after the mixture was moved back and forth...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

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Here is a picture of the valves.  Taken from above the cylinder once it was removed. 

I'll have to search more of your lingo, as you suggest.  But the "morning sickness" behavior was something I'd read about and since this engine often had relatively rough starts over the winter that calmed out at runup, I just got used to it.  Though, looking through the JPI graphs, it was getting worse and worse and I should have put 2 and 2 together. 

This is the first year of my owning this plane and the first year I've dealt with winter starts and Tanis heaters and things, so I'm just not good at this.

image.thumb.png.093cf75a8dc5f795b7e802276fdb778a.png

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The cool thing about MS... There are some experts here that may be able to lend some insight...

Often, I invite some people to stop by and visit... @kortopates and @M20Doc... stuck valve complete with JPI graphs and valve pic...

Oddly though... the pic of the valve doesn’t show the usual non-pizza hot spot...

Best regards,

-a-

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16 minutes ago, FlyBoyM20J said:

Here is a picture of the valves.  Taken from above the cylinder once it was removed. 

I'll have to search more of your lingo, as you suggest.  But the "morning sickness" behavior was something I'd read about and since this engine often had relatively rough starts over the winter that calmed out at runup, I just got used to it.  Though, looking through the JPI graphs, it was getting worse and worse and I should have put 2 and 2 together. 

This is the first year of my owning this plane and the first year I've dealt with winter starts and Tanis heaters and things, so I'm just not good at this.

image.thumb.png.093cf75a8dc5f795b7e802276fdb778a.png

Stake the exhaust valve( hit the spring side) to clear out any carbon. Then you can fill the exhaust port with solvent or a gas and see if it seeps to the inside of the cylinder. 

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10 hours ago, FlyBoyM20J said:

Here is a picture of the valves.  Taken from above the cylinder once it was removed. 

I'll have to search more of your lingo, as you suggest.  But the "morning sickness" behavior was something I'd read about and since this engine often had relatively rough starts over the winter that calmed out at runup, I just got used to it.  Though, looking through the JPI graphs, it was getting worse and worse and I should have put 2 and 2 together. 

This is the first year of my owning this plane and the first year I've dealt with winter starts and Tanis heaters and things, so I'm just not good at this.

image.thumb.png.093cf75a8dc5f795b7e802276fdb778a.png

You should have had a local A&P “rope trick” that exhaust valve before pulling the cylinder and piston. BTW, mechanics have been reaming valve guides for about as long as valve guides have existed. I’ve heard good things about Jewel but anyone that would say “LOP has been keeping us busy” because of a sticky exhaust valve on a cylinder that they don’t have in front of them makes me uncomfortable. I’ve had valves stick on a Cont O200. They don’t run LOP so I wonder what caused it. 

Edited by Shadrach
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12 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

You should have had a local A&P “rope trick” that exhaust valve before pulling the piston. BTW, mechanics have been reaming valve guides for about as long as valve guides have existed. I’ve heard good things about Jewel but anyone that would say “LOP has been keeping us busy” because of a sticky exhaust valve on a cylinder they don’t have in front of them makes me uncomfortable. I’ve had valves stick on a Cont O200. They don’t run LOP so I wonder what caused it. 

I'll research "rope tricking" a valve and maybe we'll do that to C4's exhaust valve while we're in there.  It would be nice to see the EGT trace in the JPI graphs calm down without changing much else.

I think David Jewell was just having a gentle chuckle about LOP...a lot of us have read Mike Busch and are going on about it, I suppose.  He promised to look into the valve when he gets the cylinder, which I appreciate.  

At any rate, I'm no longer feeling so bad about LOP after this MS discussion.  I'd like to keep going with it since it keeps CHTs so much lower and saves me about 3 gallons/hour at a cost of only 10 kts TAS. 

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27 minutes ago, Jim F said:

Stake the exhaust valve( hit the spring side) to clear out any carbon. Then you can fill the exhaust port with solvent or a gas and see if it seeps to the inside of the cylinder. 

My A&P suggested this - and filling the port with gasoline overnight, but we decided against it for some reason.  I think we just had to wrap up and I hadn't researched what I wanted to do about replacing or rebuilding yet.  I think at this point, I'm going to remove the piston and pack it and the cylinder up to send to Jewell Aviation tomorrow, so I don't suppose I'll get to do this this time around.

Thank you for the instructions again, though!

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1 hour ago, FlyBoyM20J said:

I'll research "rope tricking" a valve and maybe we'll do that to C4's exhaust valve while we're in there.  It would be nice to see the EGT trace in the JPI graphs calm down without changing much else.

I think David Jewell was just having a gentle chuckle about LOP...a lot of us have read Mike Busch and are going on about it, I suppose.  He promised to look into the valve when he gets the cylinder, which I appreciate.  

At any rate, I'm no longer feeling so bad about LOP after this MS discussion.  I'd like to keep going with it since it keeps CHTs so much lower and saves me about 3 gallons/hour at a cost of only 10 kts TAS. 

Rope trick is a method of removing a valve from its guide, reaming the guide and reinstalling the valve with the cylinder still mounted to the engine. It is outlined in Lycoming Service Instruction 1425A. It SOP as the first step to solving a sticking valve. I’m curious why there was such a rush to pull the jug.

Edited by Shadrach
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2 hours ago, carusoam said:

Great graph, the noisy line is typical of a valve that has stopped rotating.... it usually makes a saw-tooth pattern...

When it stops going up and down, the graph changes a bit.... when the piston crashes into the valve...

Do you have a picture of the valve itself?

Are you familiar with the ‘pizza’ image that it is supposed to have?

A sticking valve will look different than a pizza...

The pronounced graph things early on after start-up is called morning-sickness... as things warm up, they start working properly...

 

For additional info related to cleaning valve guides... there are a couple of procedures that may be of interest... the rope trick, and the wobble test...  DMax (Don Maxwell)is the author of these fine procedures...

You might consider checking and cleaning the other exhaust valves while you are in there...

Use the search function for all the lingo posted above...

It might be worth paying Savvy to look at /analyze your graph...   see how smooth the EGT lines are after 15:40?... they ran nicely after the mixture was moved back and forth...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

Are you sure that Lycoming are interference engines (pistons and valves interfere if valve stuck open)?

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