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M20C Pre-purchase near Salt Lake City


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Hello! My name is Ilya and I am Mooneyless. Currently looking for my very first M20C and recently came across the one I like and will appreciate an advise on an experienced A&P for pre-purchase inspection and optionally IA for an annual in or around Salt Lake City. Thank you!

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Welcome aboard Ilya.

Stand by for somebody to drop in from your neighborhood...

In the meantime...

Check the Mooney website. They list contacts with all of the MSCs... Mooney Service Centers.

You won’t be Mooneyless for long!

Best regards,

-a-

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We don't have an MSC in Utah.  Many of us have our own mechanics that have taken care of multiple Mooney's for a long time.  The one I use has cared for B's to Bravo's for the last 20 years.  He is located in Logan, 80 miles north of SLC.   PM me if you need contact information.

Tim

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@TTaylor Let's see what Seller says. Airplane is in Price and out of an annual so I was thinking more of an knowledgeable A&P to get to that field and Logan might be just too far for a travel. I am planning to fly there this weekend to see her in person. Appreciate your advice!

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11 hours ago, lithium366 said:

Airplane is in Price and out of an annual 

Are you a first time buyer?  Without knowing any details of the plane or your situation, "in price and out of annual" is a really scary combination.  It tends to bring a deluge of unsolicited discouraging advice here. However that advice is often correct and can save you a lot of pain which people (including me) have had to experience. 

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8 hours ago, DXB said:

Are you a first time buyer?  Without knowing any details of the plane or your situation, "in price and out of annual" is a really scary combination.  It tends to bring a deluge of unsolicited discouraging advice here. However that advice is often correct and can save you a lot of pain which people (including me) have had to experience. 

I am a first time buyer. What is the caveat if proper pre-buy is made? According to a Seller airplane flown regularly. Price is the city in UT btw

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I am a first time buyer. What is the caveat if proper pre-buy is made? According to a Seller airplane flown regularly. Price is the city in UT btw


A plane that is out of annual is a challenge. It is also an indicator for me that the owner made a conscious decision to let it lapse. If I am going to sell my plane, everyone knows that the potential buyer will want to do a pre-buy and it won’t be with the guys who have been servicing it on the field. Did the owner give a reason for letting the annual slip?

If you find a shop willing to do a pre-buy at the location the plane is grounded at, you’re hose because if it looks okay to them, you’ll still need to get a ferry permit to get it somewhere for annual unless you think the shop on the field is good enough.

Another option is to see if you could get an IA, to monitor the annual of the plane on the field it is based. Negotiate that the plane must pass an annual and be clear about all airworthiness issues he owns and you and the owner can negotiate over the non-airworthy items found.


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Llya,

When I bought my Mooney it was out of annual and stranded at an airport that was difficult to get a PPI or an annual.  If the plane passes your first inspection it is possible to get a ferry permit to move it to a location to get a qualified PPI and annual.  Depending on how long it has been out of annual and how recent the last flight time was this might be the best option.  

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4 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 


A plane that is out of annual is a challenge. It is also an indicator for me that the owner made a conscious decision to let it lapse. If I am going to sell my plane, everyone knows that the potential buyer will want to do a pre-buy and it won’t be with the guys who have been servicing it on the field. Did the owner give a reason for letting the annual slip?

If you find a shop willing to do a pre-buy at the location the plane is grounded at, you’re hose because if it looks okay to them, you’ll still need to get a ferry permit to get it somewhere for annual unless you think the shop on the field is good enough.

Another option is to see if you could get an IA, to monitor the annual of the plane on the field it is based. Negotiate that the plane must pass an annual and be clear about all airworthiness issues he owns and you and the owner can negotiate over the non-airworthy items found.


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According to a Seller he bought an airplane with the annual a bit more than a year ago then figured out he doesn't fly it much because he has another airplane. His mechanic doesn't know that airplane because he didn't service it. I would agree this is a challenge but I also see this as an opportunity when other buyers don't bulge. As if he can make a "paper" annual he probably would have done that already. He can tell truth or lie I don't know at this moment just trying to figure out a right course of action. He also said his mechanic can arrange a test flight. I am not sure how this is legally possible with an airplane that is out of annual - I don't think special flight permit can be issued to that type of operation

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55 minutes ago, TTaylor said:

Llya,

When I bought my Mooney it was out of annual and stranded at an airport that was difficult to get a PPI or an annual.  If the plane passes your first inspection it is possible to get a ferry permit to move it to a location to get a qualified PPI and annual.  Depending on how long it has been out of annual and how recent the last flight time was this might be the best option.  

I am thinking to verbally offer him +$1000 to the asking price (asking price is reasonable and I am ready to pay it) if he does the annual so I can test fly it and do a pre-buy at mechanic of my choice (off his home base). I realize his annual might be way different from the one I'd like but that might be the case with any airplane on the market where you don't know how reputable last AI name is in the logbook. Do you remember how you arrange an agreement for conditions you described? Who was paying for the annual in your case? How did you manage pass / no pass annual expenses in your agreement?

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According to a Seller he bought an airplane with the annual a bit more than a year ago then figured out he doesn't fly it much because he has another airplane. His mechanic doesn't know that airplane because he didn't service it. I would agree this is a challenge but I also see this as an opportunity when other buyers don't bulge. As if he can make a "paper" annual he probably would have done that already. He can tell truth or lie I don't know at this moment just trying to figure out a right course of action. He also said his mechanic can arrange a test flight. I am not sure how this is legally possible with an airplane that is out of annual - I don't think special flight permit can be issued to that type of operation

 

If it is out of annual it needs to have a ferry permit to fly it to somewhere where it can be made airworthy. They won’t issue one to do a test flight for the purpose of selling it.

 

Don’t take this the wrong way, everything about this situation has an odor to it. He buys a plane and then decides he doesn’t need to fly it because he has another one? Then offers to do a test flight with his mechanic who hasn’t worked on it. These are all signs you need to proceed cautiously.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Marauder said:

 


If it is out of annual it needs to have a ferry permit to fly as they won’t issue one to do a test flight for the purpose of selling it.

Don’t take this the wrong way, everything about this situation has an odor to it. He buys a plane and then decides he doesn’t need to fly it because he has another one? Then offers to do a test flight with his mechanic who hasn’t worked on it. These are all signs you need to proceed cautiously.


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That's fishy and I for sure will proceed cautiously. But I also trying to figure out how to weed out the odor at a minimum expense for me at least until I am relatively confident in the airplane (like have a test flight and preliminary pre-buy).

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This may be coincidence, but about a year ago I communicated with the seller of an M20C that was located at Price. The plane was out of annual at the time. The seller made some representations that did not appear to be consistent with what was in the logs so I did not pursue it further. 

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5 minutes ago, GregN said:

This may be coincidence, but about a year ago I communicated with the seller of an M20C that was located at Price. The plane was out of annual at the time. The seller made some representations that did not appear to be consistent with what was in the logs so I did not pursue it further. 

That airplane is out of annual only since Feb 2019 according to logbooks but I will appreciate if you PM me any details that you remember about seller and airplane

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6 minutes ago, N803RM said:

A cheap purchase price usually means a lot of money down the road.  You are looking at a 45 to 55+ year old machine. 

Be careful. A detailed pre purchase inspection is not the same as an annual.   Airworthy can still have deferred maintenance.

Ron 

 

I don't think I said it's cheap. It is actually priced at Vref. Would you recommend looking at above average priced airplanes instead?

Edited by lithium366
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So the Seller said he if fine with doing an annual (at his cost but asking price will incread) even before I came and see the airplane so I can test fly it and go for a pre-purchase whenever I want. I guess it is a good sign and simplifies a lot

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3 hours ago, lithium366 said:

I am a first time buyer. What is the caveat if proper pre-buy is made? According to a Seller airplane flown regularly. Price is the city in UT btw

Getting a "proper" prebuy is never a a simple thing, and made much harder if you can't move the plane at the moment.  I am suspicious regarding it being flown regularly if someone let the annual lapse.   How many hours in the last year?   A sitting plane will surely have problems over time that are not picked up in a prebuy.  Also someone who lets an annual lapse very likely neglects other issues in the plane as well.  

Without knowing anything else, I think any of us here would prefer an average priced plane in annual than a cheap one out of annual.  The former situation is likely to be much cheaper in the end.  Of course the details matter and one must look deeper.  But the inexperienced buyer who doesn't know Mooneys is at a big disadvantage in vetting such a plane.  Forgive me if I sound patronizing - I was exactly in your shoes 5 years ago.  I made out ok in the end but it was a precarious place to be and dumb luck that I did ok.   The best decision I made was insisting the plane be flown to a real expert for a real prebuy and more than a pencil-whipped annual (thanks to folks on this great site).  Had I known what I know now, I would have done a much better job negotiating with the seller and also managing costs and work at the shop that did the prebuy.

 

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1 hour ago, DXB said:

Getting a "proper" prebuy is never a a simple thing, and made much harder if you can't move the plane at the moment.  I am suspicious regarding it being flown regularly if someone let the annual lapse.   How many hours in the last year?   A sitting plane will surely have problems over time that are not picked up in a prebuy.  Also someone who lets an annual lapse very likely neglects other issues in the plane as well.  

Without knowing anything else, I think any of us here would prefer an average priced plane in annual than a cheap one out of annual.  The former situation is likely to be much cheaper in the end.  Of course the details matter and one must look deeper.  But the inexperienced buyer who doesn't know Mooneys is at a big disadvantage in vetting such a plane.  Forgive me if I sound patronizing - I was exactly in your shoes 5 years ago.  I made out ok in the end but it was a precarious place to be and dumb luck that I did ok.   The best decision I made was insisting the plane be flown to a real expert for a real prebuy and more than a pencil-whipped annual (thanks to folks on this great site).  Had I known what I know now, I would have done a much better job negotiating with the seller and also managing costs and work at the shop that did the prebuy.

 

That's the hardest part for me: not knowing what I don't know. Also I was monitoring the market for 2 months from now and all airplanes either were sitting a lot or they sold the same day to a reseller where the price is not where I want it and also no way I can negotiate as a first time buyer. I get an idea but in reality these airplanes are not popping in every day in my area :)

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So the Seller said he if fine with doing an annual (at his cost but asking price will incread) even before I came and see the airplane so I can test fly it and go for a pre-purchase whenever I want. I guess it is a good sign and simplifies a lot


If I were moving forward with an annual, I would see if I could find a local IA, not associated with the maintenance shop to be there for the annual inspection. You would be expected to pay this, but it assures that you won’t be getting a paper annual.

As for the renegotiated price based on the annual, if I were to be buying this plane, I would make sure the purchasing agreement has a reasonable increase in price for this annual (ex. $2k But personally since he is asking VRef, I think it should be $0 increase, the plane is being priced as a full value plane). You will also want a walk away clause so you don’t lose your deposit if something is found that the owner won’t fix at his cost. A cap on what allows you to walk away if airworthy items are found.

A few examples:

1) During the annual, they find corrosion. The corrosion will require a wing replacement. Deal should be off and you get any money on deposit back.
2) They find SB 208 was never accomplished. It will cost $1500 to do. I would not pick this cost up. Deal off, money back.
3) If they find the fuel tanks are leaking. Owner fixes or reduces price accordingly or money back.
4) The mechanic finds a $100 non-airworthy issue. I may eat it. But if they find $1,000 worth of these issues, the price is reduced or money back.

You just want to make sure the possibilities are covered and you can walk away if the VRef priced plane has issues.



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@Marauder He is not asking for any deposit before an annual. I think he realizes that he needs it in order to sell an airplane for money he is asking and is going to just do that. Now of course someone can show up and buy his airplane while it is in annual but I am fine with that.I am certainly not protected from paper annuals but how this is different from other airplanes on the market that have a current and relatively fresh annual?

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[mention=9886]Marauder[/mention]I am certainly not protected from paper annuals but how this is different from other airplanes on the market that have a current and relatively fresh annual?


That’s the problem and the need for a separate set of eyes doing a pre-buy. Not that I don’t trust my fellow Mooney owners but there are poorly maintained planes by design and others where the owner trusted a shop that just wasn’t doing what they needed to be doing.

An old pilot said this to me once about buying used airplanes. “Buying an airplane is like picking up a woman at a dimly lighted bar. You just want to make sure you bring her into the light before you take her home”.


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