Yetti Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 I think Jimmy's spreadsheet and now the buying guide are wrong and have been capping the market on Fs for a long time. Is there any reason why the Fs should be half the price of a J? maybe 3/4 the price. Especially when you consider the prices of a high time C172 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 Is there any reason why the Fs should be half the price of a J? The newest F is 1976, the newest J is 1998, yes I think 98 J is worth at least twice what a 76F is, assuming all else being equal.Tom 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 A late model (1998) M20J would be worth more than my 1987 M20K 252. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunti Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 On 4/21/2019 at 1:29 PM, Bob_Belville said: Frank, a local F, N1967F was just sold for $70k. Pretty well equipped to standards of a few years ago - no glass or GTN and no mods... not even sure it was ADS-B compliant. The plane was much loved and meticulously maintained. The reluctant seller, a dentist, CFI, ATP, with hundreds of angel flights, finally realized his hearing could not be fixed adequately to communicate. A local, relatively low time, Cherokee pilot paid up for a nice plane. If the new owner of this beautiful Mooney adds a nice GTN750, a 345 transponder and 2 G5 or an Aspen PFD plus some small mods like the oil cooler relocation and the nose cowl enclosure, he easily is adding another 35k to 40k to the airplane. And if the engine needs work, the bill will even be higher. And - I assume - if he has to sell the plane after the modifications, he would not do it below 110k or 120k. And this is completely ok. A big part of the value of the plane is represented by the avionics equipment, engine monitor, autopilot and even the engine health status. All this is independent from the model of the plane. In my opinion, a good equipped M20F with updated interior, some mods and nice paint must always sell for way more than a crappy M20J. Sure, the M20F will always be older than the M20J and the M20J has more standard modifications. On the other hand, I believe it is way more important that the airplane had been always hangared and good maintained. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 If the new owner of this beautiful Mooney adds a nice GTN750, a 345 transponder and 2 G5 or an Aspen PFD plus some small mods like the oil cooler relocation and the nose cowl enclosure, he easily is adding another 35k to 40k to the airplane. And if the engine needs work, the bill will even be higher. And - I assume - if he has to sell the plane after the modifications, he would not do it below 110k or 120k. Spending 40k on a 70k plane doesn’t make it worth 110k. And he doesn’t decide what the plane will sell for, the buyer does.He can ask, but ultimately the market will decide what the plane is worth.Rule of thumb I’ve been told, you’re gain is the equipment cost only, labor costs are not considered.Tom 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunti Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 If somebody wants to get a well equipped plane, he or she has to pay for it. Everybody knows in between that it is very expensive to buy and install good avionics. In a sellers market, the discount, you get for work and installations which have been done by the previous owner will be reduced. I agree that you cannot get back the whole labor and equipment cost, if you sell your airplane after a few years. But after a few years of use, the equipment is not new anymore and out of warranty. A new GTN750 or Aspen with full warranty has a bigger value than a unit out of warranty or with only a short remaining warranty. In addition, a seller may take into account that over the years installation-rates got more expensive. If you got an EDM930 installed 5 years ago for 40 hours by 60 dollars. You may now pay 40 hours by 85 dollars or even more. And even the EDM930 itself got more expensive over the years. So if the seller is giving the buyer a too large discount on what he paid, may be not the best idea for the seller. Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
320KPH Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 (edited) After negotiating on a friends behalf for over a year, and having many "Aerosexual" fantasy buyers contact me, the bird with an on condition engine finally sold to a LAME (Licensed Aircraft Mechanical Engineer) who can continue to sign it off every 100hrs if he recordes the oil upload and gets the filter residue analysed. For this LAME purchase of the bird was a no brainer, he could fly it as long as HE thought it was safe with minimum cost, then overhaul the engine and MAKE $10-$20K on his ownership becaus ehe bought it right, yet he STILL took almost 24 months to make the purchase because he was trying to get the best priced bird in the country... Strangely, he had ANOTHER LAME do a PPI on the bird??? I wonder how much fun and enjoyment he missed out on in those two years trying to haggle the price with other owners? "You cannot drive a price!" I used to state to hagglers in the automotive retail industry. This also applies to aircraft, you cannot fly a price. (unless it's a G6, baby) A Manager of Used Vehicles back in my automotive days said to me: "There's always a reason why a car is cheap" and ther ALWAYS was... I saw a couple of legendary hagglers get stung, bad. Edited April 22, 2019 by 320KPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy95W Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 33 minutes ago, 320KPH said: Strangely, he had ANOTHER LAME do a PPI on the bird??? I think that was very smart of him. 1) the other guy may have known more about the aircraft type than him, and 2) another set of eyes to make sure he wasn't letting his emotions make the decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank B. Posted April 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 Is this what a 75K F Model looks like? http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=323654202587&category=63677&pm=1&ds=0&t=1554734584000&ver=0 FAA1 Accident/Incident Occurred on: 2004-05-11 Narrative: (-23) THE AIRCRAFT WAS AT CRUISE FROM MORRISTOWN, TN (MOR) TO CULPEPPER, VA (CJR) WHEN THE ENGINE QUIT AND THE PILOT WAS UNABLE TO RESTART AND MADE AN OFF-FIELD LANDING HITTING THE FENCE AND FENCE POSTS. THE FUEL SUPPLY WAS FOUND EXHAUSTED AND THE FUEL HOSE FROM THE FIREWALL TO THE ENGINE DRIVEN FUEL PUMP WAS LOOSE AT THE FIRE WALL FITTING "FINGER TIGHT". COUNSELING FOR FAILURE TO TIGHTEN THE FUEL LINE HOSE FITTING AT FIREWALL CONNECTION. FAILURE TO RECOGNIZE FASTER THAN NORMAL USE OF FUEL SUPPLY AND LAND TO INVESTIGATE PROBLEM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 I'm pretty sure a blind guy put that panel together. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted April 23, 2019 Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 What I always think is funny is how much time is spent talking about how over priced Mooneys are. No wonder Cessna 172s of the same vintage sell for more than a decent Mooney. As for the eBay plane, yeah, the steam gauges are in the wrong holes. Easy fix. The value in that plane is the low engine time, recent paint and interior, three bladed prop as well as many of the upgraded accessories. Don’t want to pay $76k. Go find a $50k F and deal with 1,000 plus on the engine, crappy paint and interior as well as the accessories that all will begin their steady slide into the maintenance abyss. Come back in 5 years after you paid $15k to paint it, $12k for the new interior and $10k in fixing things that broke because of age an/or wear. You guys are your own worst enemy when it comes to holding up the value of what you own. Like I have said before, I’d never bring my plane here to sell. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted April 23, 2019 Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 Proposed Banned phrases... 1) that plane isn’t worth... 2) I would never pay that much for... When it comes to selling planes, we are our own worst enemy... I’m pretty sure there is no value to come from writing a sentence that starts out this way... unless we are talking about the competitive brands... then every sentence can be assumed to start this way... Aside from that... Nobody knows Mooney pricing better than a guy that sells many Mooneys each month... The funny thing is... there is no such thing as a price cap for any Mooney... no matter what was printed, anywhere... Unique airplanes will sell to individuals that are not so financially constrained. The guy that actually sets the price of all machines that get sold, is the buyer. He may know nothing about Mooneys... He might have a price cap. He might have a limit to what he is willing to spend. He might have another plane to look at and possibly purchase. The limitation of telling a seller that his airplane is on worth X, (use any reason, like a price guide said so, or I bought one last week...) he doesn’t have to sell it to you... he can sell it for less to somebody else... So our expert who writes the price guide... is essentially reporting what he is seeing in the market.... Using a price guide written by one individual, centered in one place, only reporting numbers he knows, is imperfect at best... The good news... it’s a really good guide... the best one we have... There is nothing that says your plane has to sell for X, because a price guide says it is worth X... It may make you feel better, knowing the price guide increases the value of your plane each time you add hardware to it... Your friends will tell you they would buy your plane before they would buy a lesser equipped plane... If these were investments... they would increase in value better than the inflation rate... If you bought your Mooney in 2009... it is possible that it has gone up in price since then... Any investment advisor will then point out how much the S&P500 (a simple investment that is easy to buy and sell) has gone up in the same amount of time... Ever fly around in an IRA? Unlike the automotive world... there can be several of the same vehicle, in the same condition, nearby... companies write price guides based on publicly collected data... from all over... very much apples and oranges kind of comparison. Really good news... Buy and Hold, has been a crummy stock strategy over the years... but, it makes a really good economics strategy for airplane ownership... After a decade of airplane ownership... compare the cost of the plane, to the cost of its upkeep, and to the cost of its operation... the cost of the plane itself starts to look pretty good... The cost of an annual for an M20C... similar to an M20R... The cost of storing an M20C indoors... exactly the same as an M20R... The cost of insurance for an M20C... really close to the M20R, it carries the same precious load.... (four people) I thought being called a CB was an honor... PP thoughts only, not an economist... Best regards, -a- 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgarrison Posted April 23, 2019 Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 On 4/22/2019 at 6:26 AM, Yetti said: I think Jimmy's spreadsheet and now the buying guide are wrong and have been capping the market on Fs for a long time. Is there any reason why the Fs should be half the price of a J? maybe 3/4 the price. Especially when you consider the prices of a high time C172 Just to be clear. I don't cap the market. The market caps the market. Once you hit a certain price, buyers tend to look at alternatives. In my addendum, my statement says that at about $80k, buyers will tend to start looking at J's. At $65K, M20C buyers will start looking at Execs. The addendum also says that a $120K Exec or $100K M20C is not out of the question. It is unlikely, but not out of the question. I looked at an Exec earlier this week that I think will bring more than 80K. But the general statement still stands. Some of that is because of BlueBook and Vref and the banks. Some of it is due to what other planes are available for a given price. If you are at the convention in Longview in June, I have some interesting stuff to show you that may prove some of this (and in particular, your statement about the C172 prices). Also, can I ask what spreadsheet you are referring to? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted April 23, 2019 Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 1 hour ago, jgarrison said: Also, can I ask what spreadsheet you are referring to? This one. It used to be a spreadsheet https://themooneyflyer.com/valuation/M20FValuation.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgarrison Posted April 23, 2019 Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 26 minutes ago, Yetti said: This one. It used to be a spreadsheet https://themooneyflyer.com/valuation/M20FValuation.html Not mine. My picture is on the link to get to that spreadsheet (a picture taken from the MAPA log, years ago), but I don't contribute to that valuation program. I'm not sure where they get their data. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantom Posted April 23, 2019 Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 Thanks Jimmy, for a dose of common sense, flavored by your decades of extensive knowledge buying and selling Mooney's. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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