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M20F Model Value?


Frank B.

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I have been watching Mooney prices climb very rapidly for the last year or so, especially vintage planes. I have noticed that since Jimmy G. Published his pre-J valuation guide that most F models have really jumped in asking price. Right now there are several M20F’s I see advertised anywhere from 65K and up. Several are 70 to 80K and there is even one I saw out there for over 120K. The way that I read Jimmy G.’s guide, if I understand it correctly, he pretty much caps the price on F models at 80K, regardless of how much you have invested. Are F models really bringing as much or more than early M20J’s? Does anyone actually know of any F models that have actually sold in the 70’s or even higher?

”Curious Minds Want To Know”

Thanks, Frank

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I have been watching Mooney prices climb very rapidly for the last year or so, especially vintage planes. I have noticed that since Jimmy G. Published his pre-J valuation guide that most F models have really jumped in asking price. Right now there are several M20F’s I see advertised anywhere from 65K and up. Several are 70 to 80K and there is even one I saw out there for over 120K. The way that I read Jimmy G.’s guide, if I understand it correctly, he pretty much caps the price on F models at 80K, regardless of how much you have invested. Are F models really bringing as much or more than early M20J’s? Does anyone actually know of any F models that have actually sold in the 70’s or even higher?
”Curious Minds Want To Know”
Thanks, Frank


Frank - I am seeing modified F model prices in the same ballpark as unmodified early J models. Someone mentioned that vintage airplanes are like classic and antique cars when it comes to prices. It depends on who is buying and what they are selling.

My plane is a highly modified late model F and I have 2 people who are pursuing me to sell to them. I know the offers they are tossing at me are way in excess of $80k.

Tom, the E owner who sold to move up to a twin sold his highly modified E for over $100k. I think the market is finally moving towards a seller’s market.


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The problem with the math....

it is dependent on the economy. Things like...

  • interest rates... high interest rates drive prices down...
  • unemployment rates... Low unemployment rates give comfort to a person, that they won’t lose their job this year...
  • inflation rates... inflation makes thing seem expensive, until you get a cost of living raise... things are terrible in this environment for people whose pay doesn’t change to keep up...
  • price of fuel, and its availability... (an inflation function....)
  • Electronic upgrades have typically had a shelf life of value nav/coms were great until GPS came along... Then that WAAS technology... then that ADSB thing.... a decade for an electronic device might be good.

Keep your eye on the federal reserve... they set interest rates to try to maintain control over two things... their dual mandate is to control inflation and minimize unemployment...

 

Everything is great.... until it isn’t.  It can be very hard to see when things are changing in the economy.

How this effects a Mooney buyer... depends on whether you are using financing, have extra cash, and are going to get a raise.... and what things will be like when you go to sell....

 

When the federal reserve measures enough change in their variables, they raise or lower the (over night lending) interest rate a small amount like a quarter of a percent, on a 2.5% rate currently...

The typical response is a sell-off on things like stocks and bonds on Wall Street.... AKA... the Fed taking the punch bowl away... a metaphorical economic party...

 

This leads to the next statement that can be heard...  I bought a (boat, plane, house, other large expense) and it went up in value...

Then you have to compare the value of that thing, with what the value of the money will be when deployed elsewhere like in a bank or in gold bars....

Buy a plane because you want one.  It may go up in value, but not by much, compared to how much wear and tear it takes...

Hold it for a really long time... the cost of the plane is quite small when compared to the operations costs....

To be comfortable... know that it is going to be expensive, know your costs, but don’t add them up...very often...

It is a great time to own an airplane, can it get any better?  It has been a long decade from the Great Recession...

If all M20Js are priced over 100AMU.... prices have returned to the mid 2000s level...

If all M20Fs are priced over 100amu.... that may be a sign of inflation... (well exceeding the price established pre Great Recession time)

Expect a lot of varying opinions on this topic... that is the basis of an open market. That’s what allows for price stability.

Hope that all these rates don’t go up too fast, that can be unsustainable... similar to aviation, that can be an impending stall situation...

PP thoughts only, not an economist...

Best regards,

-a-

 

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The cool part of Marauder’s math... if you are Marauder that is....

Marauder’s plane has...

  • all of the nav functions available to brand new top of the line planes that sell for a few hundred amu more...
  • It has the interior of a plane that was born just a few months ago...
  • An engine/prop with plenty of life in it...
  • An exterior in the process of being upgraded to an A-one perfect work of art....
  • a history that is incredibly well documented...
  • Been fully Technically integrated, better than any new Mooney can be, fresh out of the factory...
  • top speed faster than most four cylinder powered, NA factory built, aircraft... ever built...

To the right buyer, any of these things can be updated more to suit, after they buy it....

Why wouldn’t an educated buyer pay extra for such a fine aircraft... they’re not buying the nuts and bolts... they are buying a full flying solution that meets their needs... ready to fly, anytime Marauder wants to...

Watch a video of Marauder’s M20F self navigating through complex airspace, showing weather and traffic on color screens...

It doesn’t get more valuable than that does it?

 

This plane is scheduled to become available when Marauder obtains his type rating for the C130? A heavy hauler of record...

http://www.planecheck.com/index.asp?ent=da&id=14314&cor=y

 

PP on MS thoughts only, I am not very familiar with Marauder’s plane or it’s coming availability....

Best regards,

-a-

 

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10 hours ago, Marauder said:

 


Frank - I am seeing modified F model prices in the same ballpark as unmodified early J models. Someone mentioned that vintage airplanes are like classic and antique cars when it comes to prices. It depends on who is buying and what they are selling.

My plane is a highly modified late model F and I have 2 people who are pursuing me to sell to them. I know the offers they are tossing at me are way in excess of $80k.

Tom, the E owner who sold to move up to a twin sold his highly modified E for over $100k. I think the market is finally moving towards a seller’s market.


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I saw that one E model that you are referencing with the awesome panel bring big money but I think that was a very unique plane from many angles.

I have looked at two F models that were close to 80K and both of them had good panels with some glass, pretty decent paint and interiors. They both also had messed up door locks, seat frame problems that had been covered up with paint and leather and both had shady pasts, “STC’s and 337’s” missing. They both also had other tell tell signs that they were 50 year old airplanes. While I have no problem with a project and the ongoing replacement of components as they fail, At $80K I would expect more than a project. One of the planes that I looked at had dents in the nose truss that were three times deeper than the inspector said was allowed.

This takes me back to my original question. While many, if not most, are asking north of $70K for fairly “clean looking” F models, are any of them really selling for that price or is it just wishful hoping and thinking? I see that many of these F models have been listed and re-listed for months. Is cash actually changing hands .... is there more than just one unique experience or two where these F model planes are bringing north of $70K?

Thanks, Frank B.

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1 hour ago, Frank B. said:

kes me back to my original question. While many, if not most, are asking north of $70K for fairly “clean looking” F models, are any of them really selling for that price or is it just wishful hoping and thinking? I see that many of these F models have been listed and re-listed for months. Is cash actually changing hands .... is there more than just one unique experience or two where these F model planes are bringing north of $70K?

Thanks, Frank B.

Frank, a local F, N1967F was just sold for $70k. Pretty well equipped to standards of a few years ago - no glass or GTN and no mods... not even sure it was ADS-B compliant. The plane was much loved and meticulously maintained. The reluctant seller, a dentist, CFI, ATP, with hundreds of angel flights, finally realized his hearing could not be fixed adequately to communicate. A local, relatively low time, Cherokee pilot paid up for a nice plane.   

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54 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Frank, a local F, N1967F was just sold for $70k. Pretty well equipped to standards of a few years ago - no glass or GTN and no mods... not even sure it was ADS-B compliant. The plane was much loved and meticulously maintained. The reluctant seller, a dentist, CFI, ATP, with hundreds of angel flights, finally realized his hearing could not be fixed adequately to communicate. A local, relatively low time, Cherokee pilot paid up for a nice plane.   

IMG_20171215_134904495_HDR.jpg

Thanks Bob. That is exactly what I am / was looking for, an actual sale / sales where cash changed hands.

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I think one reason they are on the rise is there is an increasing demand for planes. Look at how many times in the past year we have answered “I’m about to get my PPL and I’m interested in Mooneys, can someone show me one?”.

Mooneys have a reputation of being speed demons while being super efficient. Who wouldn’t want one?


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The reason that I started this topic is because I have been shopping for a “simple” Mooney for low altitude hamburger runs since I sold my M20K last year. I sold my K model on this forum and I think that if you would ask the buyer, who is also on this forum, I represented the plane to the very best of my ability and when he saw the plane for the first time there were no surprises. He had a PPI done at a reputable MSC and I paid for the repair of any squaks. That’s how it’s supposed to go, right? Well, last week I bought me a high dollar highly modified vintage Mooney that has speed mods out the wazoo. It’s an actual Trophy conversion from the guys down in Punta Gorda back in the mid 90’s. I escrowed exactly what the “Broker” asked for and off the plane went for a PPI. Two hours into the PPI the inspector had over 15 items on his list and some of them were AW items. The owner, whom I spoke with at length, said that in his opinion the plane was an 8.5 on a 1-10 scale. The plane had also just came through a $6K annual earlier this month. I felt confident and excited that I had found my retirement toy. Needless to say ... I walked away from the deal and stopped the PPI once I saw some photos that the inspector sent me. How big can those dents be in the nose gear truss again? Guess what ... the plane is right back on the brokers website again, same price with no mention of the discrepancies. Who know, maybe they are fixing them and will reveal them to prospective buyers when they call or email. But .... there is yet another Trophy Conversion out there being advertised right now that I would like to have. Do I buy it, escrow the funds, send it off for a PPI and expect better results than I had last week? I know that there has already been one buyer walk away from the plane after signing a purchase agreement although I don’t know if it was something related to the PPI I R NOT. From the photos the plane from last week looked great!  When I spoke with the owner he said well ... you know that it is a 45 plus year old airplane and the broker said that he thought that the owner had made me aware of the many deficiencies. Do I chance it again? Am I expecting too much? Should I assume that I am buying a project even though the ad doesn’t mention any deficiencies? I am not going to say who the broker is or who the owner is and I am not going to post any photos that shows what plane it is but I am going to post a few photos of some of the problem areas and ask, am I expecting too much? Look at the photos of the new $800 battery that was installed this month at that $6K annual. Is corrosion measured in oz’s, lbs or by the sq ft? 

Just for the record the broker on this transaction is NOT located in TX and is not, to the best of my knowledge, a broker who typically contributes to this forum.

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26 minutes ago, Rwsavory said:

 Was the seller not willing to adjust the price for the cost of the repairs? 

The photos that I posted were only the tip of the iceberg . The inspector very roughly estimated that it would easily take in excess of $20K to bring the plane up to how it was represented, not counting that it had several years of missing logs, STC’s and 337’s. No current equipment list, no weight and balance .. and the list goes on and on. But ....  it sure did look good in the photos they posted and the description they both gave and posted.

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When selling machines...

Bottom line... The plane should match the description.  Description should match the plane...

 

Expect that some skill is required for the guy selling...

  • to know the important parts of Mooney planes.
  • To have actually seen the important parts of the plane that is for sale.
  • some tech writing skills.
  • some assorted sales guy skills... text, email, call, time available to match customer...

 

The quality of the guys selling the machine is important...

  • If you have to travel to see it.
  • If you are going to spend money to have it PPI’d

 

The benefit of using those guys in TX...

  • They know Mooneys
  • They know PPIs
  • They know honesty is important, because a failed PPI is expensive for everybody...

 

The costs and benefit of buying directly from an individual...

  • No broker fee...
  • Individual sellers may not be intimately familiar with the machine’s status.
  • They may not be familiar enough with the market/ individual planes...

 

There is plenty of risk in buying a plane... but some risks can be eliminated...

  • Is that lipstick on there?   :)
  • HD pics, lots of them...
  • Scanned logs, every page...
  • Read the logs, take the important notes.
  • review the pics
  • Then go visit...
  • When the description of the plane matches the pics and logs.... Send plane to your selected PPI resource...

If you are focussed, as some of us are, on getting the lowest cost plane in the category... or want to negotiate the price down, because all of our friends have...

There is more to negotiating than just the price...

Unfortunately, the plane in this case, wasn’t represented well... it didn’t matter what the price was... it didn’t meet the expectations of the buyer... 

 

Important (rhetorical) question... if the plane matched the description, and passed the PPI as expected...would you have pay the asking price?

For a stronger negotiating stance, it helps to have two very similar planes available for sale... and go see both of them...

Once you have seen two similar planes and know the cost of traveling to see them... negotiating small AMUs starts to get lost in the travel expenses...

I happened to be traveling through San Antonio on business, while AAA had listed my O for sale... I requested pics and logs before the trip.  David gave me the full run-down on what it needed, and what had been updated already...

Off to the PPI...

PPI with DMax... Don did the flying and tested all the avionics at my request... then the usual list of things...

That phone call was a blast... a few more details were fixed... and plane was shipped back to Jimmy and David...

 

If you are paying full price... expect that the plane matches the description...

 

The only thing not working when I left with the O... was a blue light bulb on the instrument panel that was a challenge to source...  My local MSC sourced it, and Jimmy picked up the tab for it as agreed...

 

Buying and selling a plane takes a fair amount of effort, starts with the description...

Know that market forces are always at play.  It only takes one competing buyer to ruin your day...

It took about one month from the moment I was aware of the plane, to the moment it touched the ground at the home drome...

The process gets easier when you...

  • really want to buy a plane...
  • know what plane you want to have...
  • know the plane being advertised is the one you want...
  • Know how to keep other buyers from taking it away... earnest money and written agreements are really good. Memory of so many important details can’t be relied upon....

Starting with Mooney experience already... half the job is already done!

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy...

Best regards,

-a-

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2 hours ago, Frank B. said:

The photos that I posted were only the tip of the iceberg . The inspector very roughly estimated that it would easily take in excess of $20K to bring the plane up to how it was represented, not counting that it had several years of missing logs, STC’s and 337’s. No current equipment list, no weight and balance .. and the list goes on and on. But ....  it sure did look good in the photos they posted and the description they both gave and posted.

That makes sense. Makes you wonder who did that “$6,000 annual.”

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The photos that I posted were only the tip of the iceberg . The inspector very roughly estimated that it would easily take in excess of $20K to bring the plane up to how it was represented, not counting that it had several years of missing logs, STC’s and 337’s. No current equipment list, no weight and balance .. and the list goes on and on. But ....  it sure did look good in the photos they posted and the description they both gave and posted.

Almost all 50 year old planes are going to have some minor hangar rash, hail damage, or some squawks of some kind. Minor stuff is never listed, but missing logs, bent landing gear, etc is not normal.


Tom
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48 minutes ago, Rwsavory said:

That makes sense. Makes you wonder who did that “$6,000 annual.”

Just because a customer paid for a $6K annual doesn't mean that they actually received a $6K annual. There have been some wacky logbook entries that don't correspond very well to the repairs that were supposedly made.

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20 minutes ago, David_H said:

Just because a customer paid for a $6K annual doesn't mean that they actually received a $6K annual. There have been some wacky logbook entries that don't correspond very well to the repairs that were supposedly made.

There is no way it could even pass an annual. Dents in the nose truss on both sides that measure 1/16 on one side and 1/8 on the other side. No W&B, no 337’s or STC’s for the Trophy Conversion. But .... all that lipstick .... sure made it look good in the photos.

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Initially I assumed you (the OP) was new to ownership, but obviously not and as your experienced as both a buyer and a seller. But there is one thing I would suggest changing in your buying approach asap. Before investing time and money on any plane, get as much information from afar as possible. That include lots of pictures to see if you like it and if you do and think its in the ballpark price wise, then request the logs. As an past airplane owner you may feel comfortable reviewing them but if not you can get them reviewed for free through SavvyAviation.com. You'll have to submit them for review in a digital form that is readable and be prepared to give us a few days to review them. Very likely this will generate a few more questions that you can go back to discuss with the owner.  But I wouldn't dream of starting a PPI without doing an initial review of the logs first. 

But it sounds like expectations might be a bit unreasonably high for the PPI. The PPI's #1 goal is to find big ticket items that show stoppers that will shutdown the process immediately. This is stuff like wing corrosion. Secondarily, its goal is to provide a list of moderate to expensive discrepancies that aren't show stoppers but are points of negotiation. I'd put dented trusses, shock disks, and even leaky tanks all in the second category. For example, if the plane is otherwise fine except for the dented truss I surely wouldn't walk away unless the owner refused to deduct the fairly estimated cost to repair/replace that dented trust. You similarly paid for such airworthy squawks when you sold your K so you are already more than familiar with the process. Now I can understand after a number of such squawks they could exceed some threshold that leads you to have second thoughts but if they are all fixable in a reasonable time and the owner is cooperative enough to deduct their cost to cover them, then why not. There is no such thing as a squawk free plane - as much as I'd like to believe mine is :) 

If you want more professional help in the evaluation process, going over PPI discrepancy list, getting unbiased opinions about the work required etc etc, then consider Savvy's pre-purchase service after the free log book evaluation. You'll have access to some great professionals for good advice.  

Lastly, and this is probably a separate topic, but your thread began with a concern for a price cap on any specific model - namely the F's. I do believe Jimmy would be the first to tell you no such cap exist so I am confused on where that came from. He prices them just like you would expect from a very detailed evaluation that begins with the airframe year and then can have no limit of add's and deductions for airframe time, engine time, paint, interior and each of the installed avionics or upgrades that he has blue book values which are industry valuations for installed equipment. The end price is what ever it all totals up to. If its 150% of the average median price for the model, sure it may have less interest than the cheapest offerings. But you can bet as long as its fairly priced for what it is, its going to sell. Plenty of folks appreciate the higher end offerings because they know those are the bigger deals in enabling them to get the avionics they really want significantly discounted over what it would cost them to pay to have them installed. There are very few 50 year old airplanes that still are representative of how they left the factory with wide ranges in equipment. Expecting wide overlaps between adjacent models valuations is the norm. 

Good luck shopping, hope you find a winner soonest.

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16 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Initially I assumed you (the OP) was new to ownership, but obviously not and as your experienced as both a buyer and a seller. But there is one thing I would suggest changing in your buying approach asap. Before investing time and money on any plane, get as much information from afar as possible. That include lots of pictures to see if you like it and if you do and think its in the ballpark price wise, then request the logs. As an past airplane owner you may feel comfortable reviewing them but if not you can get them reviewed for free through SavvyAviation.com. You'll have to submit them for review in a digital form that is readable and be prepared to give us a few days to review them. Very likely this will generate a few more questions that you can go back to discuss with the owner.  But I wouldn't dream of starting a PPI without doing an initial review of the logs first. 

But it sounds like expectations might be a bit unreasonably high for the PPI. The PPI's #1 goal is to find big ticket items that show stoppers that will shutdown the process immediately. This is stuff like wing corrosion. Secondarily, its goal is to provide a list of moderate to expensive discrepancies that aren't show stoppers but are points of negotiation. I'd put dented trusses, shock disks, and even leaky tanks all in the second category. For example, if the plane is otherwise fine except for the dented truss I surely wouldn't walk away unless the owner refused to deduct the fairly estimated cost to repair/replace that dented trust. You similarly paid for such airworthy squawks when you sold your K so you are already more than familiar with the process. Now I can understand after a number of such squawks they could exceed some threshold that leads you to have second thoughts but if they are all fixable in a reasonable time and the owner is cooperative enough to deduct their cost to cover them, then why not. There is no such thing as a squawk free plane - as much as I'd like to believe mine is :) 

If you want more professional help in the evaluation process, going over PPI discrepancy list, getting unbiased opinions about the work required etc etc, then consider Savvy's pre-purchase service after the free log book evaluation. You'll have access to some great professionals for good advice.  

Lastly, and this is probably a separate topic, but your thread began with a concern for a price cap on any specific model - namely the F's. I do believe Jimmy would be the first to tell you no such cap exist so I am confused on where that came from. He prices them just like you would expect from a very detailed evaluation that begins with the airframe year and then can have no limit of add's and deductions for airframe time, engine time, paint, interior and each of the installed avionics or upgrades that he has blue book values which are industry valuations for installed equipment. The end price is what ever it all totals up to. If its 150% of the average median price for the model, sure it may have less interest than the cheapest offerings. But you can bet as long as its fairly priced for what it is, its going to sell. Plenty of folks appreciate the higher end offerings because they know those are the bigger deals in enabling them to get the avionics they really want significantly discounted over what it would cost them to pay to have them installed. There are very few 50 year old airplanes that still are representative of how they left the factory with wide ranges in equipment. Expecting wide overlaps between adjacent models valuations is the norm. 

Good luck shopping, hope you find a winner soonest.

You are correct, after I read it again I see that  I read the cap on the price wrong in Jimmy’s guide. I was getting it from paragraph #1 of page 23. Again, I read it wrong, he just references that you can “over invest in avionics etc. to the point that you never recover your investment”.

As for the pre investigation prior to a PPI I feel that I done that. I spoke with 1. The broker 2. The owner 3. The previous owner.

I had many many many photos. Obviously, they didn’t take photos of any of the negative parts of the plane. 

I guess I trust people, maybe too much. I have owned / purchased probably 20 plus aircraft since 1987, several of them have been Mooney’s, and I can honestly say that I have never really had anyone “grossly” misrepresent a plane to me. The general aviation community isn’t all that big and typically I have found most people to be trustworthy. I guess times are or have changed and I need catch up with the times. 

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Frank,

Your statistically due to have a bad experience after the 20th plane...

We have one MSer that is on a similar track you are on... a different plane every other year.

He reports buying the higher level of plane from a higher level of clientele... this way he can skip the broker and the PPI... 

In other words, know the seller... which is a reason to visit the plane...

 

80% of the planes are going to have blemishes...

Few are going to have AW issues without them being fully disclosed...

none get by the read the logs test, everything is there to see...

Trophy conversion without any STCs noted in the logs?

Gear tube dents from over turning, deep enough to put your thumb in?

AW issues found during a PPI are best discussed in advance, on how to handle the unknown... this is why some people like to use some form of purchase agreement...

 

The only thing you could have done differently was go visit it in person. Or have somebody visit it for you... some MSers do this If in the neighborhood...

 

There isn’t a single Mooney owner around here that isn’t familiar with dented nose gear tubes, how to identify them, how to replace them, who does it and how much... there are threads around here of what people do to avoid this issue...

The MM has limitations and how to measure the depth... what is not AW...

 

If you find a Mooney that is not on MS... check how the owner keeps informed of all things Mooney?  Did he say ‘dents are bad?’ or ‘those are dents?’...

 

Don’t give up trusting people... give up trusting people that think they are machine salesmen... or have a record of selling a Mooney every now and then.

It’s really no fun when there is no travel budget to go see things 1kmi away...

How much can you spend on the plane acquisition...?

  • 2 trips to where it is...
  • PPI, once you have seen it, and agreed on the next steps...
  • Transition training
  • Delivery flight

All In, that’s nearing a 10amu? chunk of change and some number of days out of your life...

I bought locally when I didn’t have the budget to travel to see machines... (limited selection)

and before spending the travel budget... I was clear that I was spending money to see the plane and what I was expecting to see... some people have no idea how far you need to travel and how much money you have spent to get there...

They start paying attention when you tell them you expect to be Matching the sales ad to the plane, everything needs to match...

There is still plenty of randomness involved with used machines.  Even if you trust the process to work... there is still the possibility that the PPI turns up something that the owner and seller are unaware of...

Don’t send a machine for a PPI that hasn’t been vetted by somebody first... you be the judge...

Even if going to that highly respected TX location... have that same conversation of what you need to have in place to commit to traveling.... You want to make sure the plane will still be there when you get there...

 

Selling machinery isn’t easy... and buying used machinery isn’t easy either...

 

In the end... when done right... it is a rewarding experience... everything lines up...

Flying/TT 1k’nm IFR in your new 2U Mooney on the way to your home drome... priceless!

 

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy

There are a few people that sell Mooneys properly for a living... they are not all in TX... that would be a better way to start...

 

So other than that bad experience...

The next plane up is guaranteed to be better a better experience! :)

Whats next?

Did you post what plane people should check twice before going?  Or what seller has such little Mooney experience? Leave a loose reference if somebody is going that way, they can figure it out....

Best regards,

-a-

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58 minutes ago, Frank B. said:

You are correct, after I read it again I see that  I read the cap on the price wrong in Jimmy’s guide. I was getting it from paragraph #1 of page 23. Again, I read it wrong, he just references that you can “over invest in avionics etc. to the point that you never recover your investment”.

As for the pre investigation prior to a PPI I feel that I done that. I spoke with 1. The broker 2. The owner 3. The previous owner.

I had many many many photos. Obviously, they didn’t take photos of any of the negative parts of the plane. 

I guess I trust people, maybe too much. I have owned / purchased probably 20 plus aircraft since 1987, several of them have been Mooney’s, and I can honestly say that I have never really had anyone “grossly” misrepresent a plane to me. The general aviation community isn’t all that big and typically I have found most people to be trustworthy. I guess times are or have changed and I need catch up with the times. 

Fair enough, I didn't realize the earlier investigating you did. I am certainly hoping you're experience is not the norm. We have all read complaints of brokers here with limited Mooney knowledge that I'll sum up as difficult to work with but similar complaints of inaccurate representation that you describe. Usually we hear the broker just took the owners representation without review. Makes you question the value the brokers brings.

However, many people prefer to go back to the one broker we all know with a stellar reputation because they have built up their reputation over many years of fairly representing their planes and being straight shooters. That makes them a pleasure to deal with. Maybe they can help you too. 

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I think the market is weird.   A 1975 cessna 172 seems to be around the $65K range, but a 75 F is less money while some would argue more plane than a C172.   Same similar panel  with much less hours on the Mooney.   I think the market has been that way for 5 years or so.   interesting

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5 hours ago, Yetti said:

I think the market is weird.   A 1975 cessna 172 seems to be around the $65K range, but a 75 F is less money while some would argue more plane than a C172.   Same similar panel  with much less hours on the Mooney.   I think the market has been that way for 5 years or so.   interesting

Agreed and the flight schools complain all the time that the 172's selling for 50K are junk planes. But the C172 is what everyone expects to train in which is perhaps driving up demand. Similarly I have never understood why a private owner would want to purchase a C172 when its only a trainer and can be rented so easily. For me at least, private ownership was to a large degree justified to get a high performance plane I couldn't rent.   

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11 hours ago, kortopates said:

Initially I assumed you (the OP) was new to ownership, but obviously not and as your experienced as both a buyer and a seller. But there is one thing I would suggest changing in your buying approach asap. Before investing time and money on any plane, get as much information from afar as possible. That include lots of pictures to see if you like it and if you do and think its in the ballpark price wise, then request the logs. As an past airplane owner you may feel comfortable reviewing them but if not you can get them reviewed for free through SavvyAviation.com. You'll have to submit them for review in a digital form that is readable and be prepared to give us a few days to review them. Very likely this will generate a few more questions that you can go back to discuss with the owner.  But I wouldn't dream of starting a PPI without doing an initial review of the logs first. 

But it sounds like expectations might be a bit unreasonably high for the PPI. The PPI's #1 goal is to find big ticket items that show stoppers that will shutdown the process immediately. This is stuff like wing corrosion. Secondarily, its goal is to provide a list of moderate to expensive discrepancies that aren't show stoppers but are points of negotiation. I'd put dented trusses, shock disks, and even leaky tanks all in the second category. For example, if the plane is otherwise fine except for the dented truss I surely wouldn't walk away unless the owner refused to deduct the fairly estimated cost to repair/replace that dented trust. You similarly paid for such airworthy squawks when you sold your K so you are already more than familiar with the process. Now I can understand after a number of such squawks they could exceed some threshold that leads you to have second thoughts but if they are all fixable in a reasonable time and the owner is cooperative enough to deduct their cost to cover them, then why not. There is no such thing as a squawk free plane - as much as I'd like to believe mine is :) 

If you want more professional help in the evaluation process, going over PPI discrepancy list, getting unbiased opinions about the work required etc etc, then consider Savvy's pre-purchase service after the free log book evaluation. You'll have access to some great professionals for good advice.  

Lastly, and this is probably a separate topic, but your thread began with a concern for a price cap on any specific model - namely the F's. I do believe Jimmy would be the first to tell you no such cap exist so I am confused on where that came from. He prices them just like you would expect from a very detailed evaluation that begins with the airframe year and then can have no limit of add's and deductions for airframe time, engine time, paint, interior and each of the installed avionics or upgrades that he has blue book values which are industry valuations for installed equipment. The end price is what ever it all totals up to. If its 150% of the average median price for the model, sure it may have less interest than the cheapest offerings. But you can bet as long as its fairly priced for what it is, its going to sell. Plenty of folks appreciate the higher end offerings because they know those are the bigger deals in enabling them to get the avionics they really want significantly discounted over what it would cost them to pay to have them installed. There are very few 50 year old airplanes that still are representative of how they left the factory with wide ranges in equipment. Expecting wide overlaps between adjacent models valuations is the norm. 

Good luck shopping, hope you find a winner soonest.

I went back and looked and found where Jimmy Capped the F model at $80K. It is in the addendum that he sent out on 2/26/2019 on Page 3 Paragraph # 15.

Thanks, Frank

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