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CB avionics pirep - should one use dual ipads in flight?


DXB

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A single ipad with ads-b in from a Stratus (or similar) was more than adequate for me when I was a VFR only pilot.  But now I look at geo-referenced approach plates on the ipad late in the flight, and so I often lose the situational awareness offered by detailed moving map, radar, and traffic on the ipad. I have waffled on whether to spend $$$$ to put an mfd in the panel (eg a second Aspen) along with panel-mounted ADS-B in (I have ADS-B out). In the meantime, I upgraded my ipad mini 2 (nearly same as mini 3) to the ipad mini 5 and was trying to decide whether to keep the old mini in the flight bag or actually try to mount and use it  in my right panel. I  worried  that both ipads together  would be  cumbersome to mount and glitchy to use. But I gave it a try yesterday, putting the new mini 5 on the yoke and using the following hardware to mount the old mini2 on the right panel:

RAM IPAD MINI PERFECT FIT CRADLE WITH 1” BALL,  RAM GLARE SHIELD MOUNT (RAM-B-259U), RAM DOUBLE SOCKET SWIVEL ARM (RAP-B-200-2U)

I  dealt with the added cockpit charging needs using the following: https://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/front-and-backseat-usb-charger.html   

Both ipads are linked via a Flightstream 210 to a GTN650 for flight plan sharing using Foreflight  as well as backup GPS and AHRS, and are also supported by a Stratus 2 for ADS-B in and AHRS.   I flew 5 hours yesterday with this setup,  did 3 approaches in actual, and then 3 simulated approaches with my instructor.  

Some observations:

-Getting both ipads to pair simultaneously with the GTN650 via FS210 was tricky at first, but turning on both ipads on and running Foreflight before turning on the avionics master took care of that issue.  Automatic updates of the flight plans on both ipads were seamless and glitch-free when entering reroutes on the GTN.

-Having all of the traffic, weather, moving map info available on the second ipad while looking at the georeferenced approach plate on the yoke ipad was wonderful.

-Two ipads provide twice the number of customizable data fields at the bottom of the moving map on Foreflight.   Now the one on the yoke will be set up with the most essential fields in case the panel GPS and/or pfd are  lost (GS, MSL altitude, VSI, TRK, DTK, bearing next etc).   My other one will display a couple other important fields (e.g. distance to next, distance to destination, time to destination, height AGL)  and other "nice to have" stuff for easy reference (nearest Baro reading, zulu time, pressure altitude)

-The display quality and speed on the mini5 are gorgeous and a big step up from the mini2/3.  Synthetic vision was slow and clunky on the mini2 but is smooth and fast on the mini5.  It would be a terrific help if in trouble in the clouds. I will now start turning synthetic vision on once past the FAF just to get used to interpreting it.  

-The USB charger linked above is by far the best I have ever used.  Other supposedly 2.4amp chargers just barely maintained ipad charge in my plane, and I was not sure why.  After I forgot to charge my mini2, this charger took it from 7% to 100% charge over the course of 5 hours of flying.  

My takeaways:  Modern panel mount mfds with ads-b-in may still be more bulletproof overall, particularly those with battery backup and reversion capability to a pfd.  But the stand alone independence, redundancy, configuration flexibility, and long battery life of two ipads plus a Stratus (or similar)  have enormous appeal and comes at a minute fraction of the cost. I was very pleasantly surprised with the dual ipad setup combined with a Flightstream.  As a CB, I will be using these tools going forward rather than installing a second Aspen Max mfd display, adding synthetic vision to my Aspen pfd,  installing ads-b in capability into the panel, or paying for yet another database. 

Edited by DXB
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40 minutes ago, Cruiser said:

Just remember that your two iPads have several common points of failure.

If your flightsteam fails both iPads fail

if your stratus fails, both iPads fail

if Forefight craps out you have nothing.

I couldn't disagree more.   

In this setup, losing the Flightstream merely loses automatic flight plan transfer - hardly a reason to declare an emergency.

Losing the Stratus only loses ads-b in - also not a reason to freak out.  

The Stratus and the Flightstream210 both have GPS and AHRS input to the ipad and so provide redundancy for each other. 

If you lose both Stratus and Flightstream, the internal GPS on both ipads still work. You will lose WAAS accuracy and AHRS, which are both last resort tools on the ipads anyway. They are far from needed unless you've lost the rest of your panel.

But if Foreflight happens to crash on BOTH ipads at the EXACT same moment after my panel pfd and gps have failed in IMC, then I have a bit of a problem but am not doomed necessarily.  

In my first 4 years of ownership, my aging ipad mini2 running Foreflight has been more reliable than my electrical system for sure.  

Edited by DXB
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17 minutes ago, Danb said:

Deb seems plausible to me, I’ve been running both iPads plus my G1000 for well since foreflight came out, lots of value having a couple more large screens.

Yeah I'm probably just late to the game here.  I was shocked by how useful it was to have two ipads running simultaneously.   

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I don’t know, an iPad has value. I use one but I also have everything I need on the panel. What concerns me is students being a bit overly distracted with the iPad when flying the approach and struggling to maintain lateral and vertical guidance using the panel instruments. If one was scanning 2 iPads while also scanning their instruments I can imagine the instruments getting far less than the priority they need.

I’ve seen examiners take away the iPads from people they thought were miss using them and insist they use paper plates. FWIW, Two iPads wouldn’t make a favorable impression with the examiner.


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3 minutes ago, kortopates said:

I don’t know, an iPad has value. I use one but I also have everything I need on the panel. What concerns me is students being a bit overly distracted with the iPad when flying the approach and struggling to maintain lateral and vertical guidance using the panel instruments. If one was scanning 2 iPads while also scanning their instruments I can imagine the instruments getting far less than the priority they need.

I’ve seen examiners take away the iPads from people they thought were miss using them and insist they use paper plates. FWIW, Two iPads wouldn’t make a favorable impression with the examiner.


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I agree completely that the habit of reliance on the panel must come first. Using an ipad in flight for much more than looking at an approach plate during training and testing seems like a bad idea, and the panel instruments must maintain primacy in real world use as well.  That said, the benefit of adding the second ipad screen really surprised me - it made my modern but basic panel setup feel surprisingly close in functionality to  the best panel setups money can buy, and with very little learning curve.  I would argue the reliability is pretty close too,  and ipads might even even have an edge in certain situations. 

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4 hours ago, DXB said:

A single ipad with ads-b in from a Stratus (or similar) was more than adequate for me when I was a VFR only pilot.  But now I look at geo-referenced approach plates on the ipad late in the flight, and so I often lose the situational awareness offered by detailed moving map, radar, and traffic on the ipad. I have waffled on whether to spend $$$$ to put an mfd in the panel (eg a second Aspen) along with panel-mounted ADS-B in (I have ADS-B out). In the meantime, I upgraded my ipad mini 2 (nearly same as mini 3) to the ipad mini 5 and was trying to decide whether to keep the old mini in the flight bag or actually try to mount and use it  in my right panel. I  worried  that both ipads together  would be  cumbersome to mount and glitchy to use. But I gave it a try yesterday, putting the new mini 5 on the yoke and using the following hardware to mount the old mini2 on the right panel:

RAM IPAD MINI PERFECT FIT CRADLE WITH 1” BALL,  RAM GLARE SHIELD MOUNT (RAM-B-259U), RAM DOUBLE SOCKET SWIVEL ARM (RAP-B-200-2U)

I  dealt with the added cockpit charging needs using the following: https://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/front-and-backseat-usb-charger.html   

Both ipads are linked via a Flightstream 210 to a GTN650 for flight plan sharing using Foreflight  as well as backup GPS and AHRS, and are also supported by a Stratus 2 for ADS-B in and AHRS.   I flew 5 hours yesterday with this setup,  did 3 approaches in actual, and then 3 simulated approaches with my instructor.  

Some observations:

-Getting both ipads to pair simultaneously with the GTN650 via FS210 was tricky at first, but turning on both ipads on and running Foreflight before turning on the avionics master took care of that issue.  Automatic updates of the flight plans on both ipads were seamless and glitch-free when entering reroutes on the GTN.

-Having all of the traffic, weather, moving map info available on the second ipad while looking at the georeferenced approach plate on the yoke ipad was wonderful.

-Two ipads provide twice the number of customizable data fields at the bottom of the moving map on Foreflight.   Now the one on the yoke will be set up with the most essential fields in case the panel GPS and/or pfd are  lost (GS, MSL altitude, VSI, TRK, DTK, bearing next etc).   My other one will display a couple other important fields (e.g. distance to next, distance to destination, time to destination, height AGL)  and other "nice to have" stuff for easy reference (nearest Baro reading, zulu time, pressure altitude)

-The display quality and speed on the mini5 are gorgeous and a big step up from the mini2/3.  Synthetic vision was slow and clunky on the mini2 but is smooth and fast on the mini5.  It would be a terrific help if in trouble in the clouds. I will now start turning synthetic vision on once past the FAF just to get used to interpreting it.  

-The USB charger linked above is by far the best I have ever used.  Other supposedly 2.4amp chargers just barely maintained ipad charge in my plane, and I was not sure why.  After I forgot to charge my mini2, this charger took it from 7% to 100% charge over the course of 5 hours of flying.  

My takeaways:  Modern panel mount mfds with ads-b-in may still be more bulletproof overall, particularly those with battery backup and reversion capability to a pfd.  But the stand alone independence, redundancy, configuration flexibility, and long battery life of two ipads plus a Stratus (or similar)  have enormous appeal and comes at a minute fraction of the cost. I was very pleasantly surprised with the dual ipad setup combined with a Flightstream.  As a CB, I will be using these tools going forward rather than installing a second Aspen Max mfd display, adding synthetic vision to my Aspen pfd,  installing ads-b in capability into the panel, or paying for yet another database. 

The Aera 660 is not much more than another iPad and makes a great MFD.

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4 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

The Aera 660 is not much more than another iPad and makes a great MFD.

Yeah I also thought about this option, and it seems like an excellent one for many folks.   But I would have needed to replace my Stratus with a GDL-52 series receiver and also switch to Garmin Pilot on my ipad.  If I were already a GDL and garmin pilot user, it would make more sense.  But as a Foreflight user with an extra ipad sitting around after upgrading to the mini5, just sticking old mini on the right panel was cheaper by far and the low lying fruit.  I may still elect for one of these purpose built portables in the future, though I wonder how much of a market these devices will retain now that the ipads are so prevalent and powerful in the aviation world. 

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25 minutes ago, DXB said:
Yeah I also thought about this option, and it seems like an excellent one for many folks.   But I would have needed to replace my Stratus with a GDL-52 series receiver and also switch to Garmin Pilot on my ipad.  If I were already a GDL and garmin pilot user, it would make more sense.  But as a Foreflight user with an extra ipad sitting around after upgrading to the mini5, just sticking old mini on the right panel was cheaper by far and the low lying fruit.  I may still elect for one of these purpose built portables in the future, though I wonder how much of a market these devices will retain now that the ipads are so prevalent and powerful in the aviation world. 

 


ForeFlight works great with a GDL 39, GDL 39 3D, GDL 50 (ads-b only), 51 (xm only) or 52 (xm+ads-b)


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33 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

 


ForeFlight works great with a GDL 50 (ads-b only), 51 (xm only) or 52(xm+ads-B)


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Hmmm...good point.  I hadn't noticed this integration was offered starting in September of last year.  When my Stratus 2 and ipad mini2 reach utter obsolescence, maybe they'll get replaced with the latest GDL series receiver, and the latest Garmin portable will go on my yoke, with the mini5 relegated to the right panel.  Of course by then Garmin will probably no longer have  need to play nice with anyone.  And the Boeing 737 Max software engineering team will have been exiled in disgrace to the company's  provincial Foreflight division, forcing me to switch to Garmin everything for my own safety  ;).

 

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I run GP across 2 tablets and a phone. 

Samsung s2 8.0, Samsung s4 10 and Samsung s10+

gdl39 3d, stratus 3i

was thinking bout an ipad 5 mini to replace the older Samsung but  to get a gps you have to buy the lte model which I haven't seen locally.

I now use larger S4 tab to see the big picture, weather, traffic etc...

smaller s2 tab for georeferenced approach plates, traffic, taxi diagrams

gns 480 to command the needles.

If my brittain AP worked well, i'd be all set.  darn trutrak and trio

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Dev,

I like one iPad..... for navigation use... traffic... weather... it’s pretty busy.

A second one, ready to go when the first one falls down...

I Use the iphone for the second one, ready to go....

 

Keeping two running all of the time starts getting into challenges of battery levels, or lots of wires around the cabin...

 

Bound by the CB principle, and wanting the extra display, I would be looking to add that second display mounted to the instrument panel.

 

Some MSers have shown the Aera(s) nicely affixed and powered on the panel... Some have flush mounted iPad minis....

So...

  • fear not the second screen
  • get it held in place
  • get it powered reliably

When you have all that organized.... take a year and decide... fear not the second Aspen in HD... :)

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

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You know how twins have twice the probability of engine failure as singles? Well, it’s like that with electronics, too. The more stuff you cram in the cockpit, the greater the likelihood that some of it will be inop. And, inop equipment messes up your workflow. There are advantages to keeping it simpler and thinking through failure modes and avoiding single point of failures that can take out multiple capabilities. 

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6 hours ago, PT20J said:

You know how twins have twice the probability of engine failure as singles? Well, it’s like that with electronics, too. The more stuff you cram in the cockpit, the greater the likelihood that some of it will be inop. And, inop equipment messes up your workflow. There are advantages to keeping it simpler and thinking through failure modes and avoiding single point of failures that can take out multiple capabilities. 

Yeah this was kinda my thinking until now - at least the part about unneeded complexity and likelihood of distraction when one ipad isnt showing what I want.    (I fail to see how it creates a single point of failure for multiple capabilities- it’s quite the opposite - two tablets add  redundancy independent of each other and  are resistant any malfunction in panel hardware or aircraft electrical system)

To my surprise,  the whole setup felt surprisingly simple, stable, and nondistracting the first six times I used it to shoot an approach.  Losing the backup ipad during approach would have minimal effect on the workflow- I could just do what I’ve been doing until now.  An issue with the primary ipad would mean I can pull up the approach plate on the backup instantly because it is already up and running in my field of view. The alternative is that the backup is sitting in the flight bag, and maybe I forgot to charge and update it.  Putting it on the panel helps call attention to these issues on the ground and not at a high workload moment when we need it.

Let’s face it- few of us carry paper charts and approach plates anymore so we really should have  a backup tablet.  The question I’m addressing is whether that backup should be up and running on the panel or tucked in the flight bag.  The benefits of having it running and in use seem to outweigh the risks, particularly  for folks without multiple big screens in their panels.

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I use an iPad and a plus size phone.  Gave serious consideration to moving around/removing instruments to allow for a panel mounted iPad to supplement my yoke mounted unit. In the end I decided against it. 

IMO the second iPad/phone needs to be treated like a cheap MFD vs another EFB. IMO a panel ifr gps and single EFB is enough junk to play with while flying. Having the second unit pre set for all functions before you taxi is a good SOP.  I have my phone set to taxi diagrams on the ground and weather/traffic in the air. I don’t touch it or worry about unless I want to play music during a slow part of the flight. 

It works for me and a larger screen, unless it was placed perfectly next to my aspen, would not increase the functionality. 

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I use an iPad and a plus size phone.  Gave serious consideration to moving around/removing instruments to allow for a panel mounted iPad to supplement my yoke mounted unit. In the end I decided against it. 
IMO the second iPad/phone needs to be treated like a cheap MFD vs another EFB. IMO a panel ifr gps and single EFB is enough junk to play with while flying. Having the second unit pre set for all functions before you taxi is a good SOP.  I have my phone set to taxi diagrams on the ground and weather/traffic in the air. I don’t touch it or worry about unless I want to play music during a slow part of the flight. 
It works for me and a larger screen, unless it was placed perfectly next to my aspen, would not increase the functionality. 


With a second Aspen, the iPad Mini I use is relegated to charts and on occasion to plot a re-route before sending it over to the GTN. Like you, I have a plus size iPhone as my backup. Works fine for the Garmin Pilot checklists and as a true backup.


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I fly with two tablets, although they're both Android-based.   They both run Avare and both listen to my stratux for gps and ads-b-in.   The smaller one sits on the yoke and has the approach plate during an approach, the other one is on my knee and has whatever it needs to have, usually the map display.    I also have an IFD540 which is usually displaying the map and traffic from the Freeflight Ranger.

I *like* this setup and feel like I have diminished capability when either tablet craps out (which happens sometimes).    But it does give me great utility, especially for having the plate up on the yoke and still having the map and traffic on my knee.   The map and traffic on the IFD540 provide another level of redundancy.

 

20190109_153115.jpg

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I fly with two tablets, although they're both Android-based.   They both run Avare and both listen to my stratux for gps and ads-b-in.   The smaller one sits on the yoke and has the approach plate during an approach, the other one is on my knee and has whatever it needs to have, usually the map display.    I also have an IFD540 which is usually displaying the map and traffic from the Freeflight Ranger.
I *like* this setup and feel like I have diminished capability when either tablet craps out (which happens sometimes).    But it does give me great utility, especially for having the plate up on the yoke and still having the map and traffic on my knee.   The map and traffic on the IFD540 provide another level of redundancy.

 
20190109_153115.thumb.jpg.82f8ccd3b72fa96e12675b6dbab5e979.jpg

I would highly recommend going with the IFD100 to do with your 540.


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I run two iPads mounted on the yokes. The copilot side runs ForeFlight and gets data from a stratus 2s. Pilot yoke runs IFD100 getting data from the IFD440. If I had the 540 I could get charts on the IFD100 and would probably eliminate the second iPad and the ForeFlight subscription. c962442903885a15bb241b65b86eeaa4.jpg


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38 minutes ago, DXB said:

Wow that's hardcore.  The sight of this thread must have made you puke :lol:

Nope.   EE, programmer and developer for more than thirty years, and Apple shareholder since Jobs went back to work there, which is partly how I'm retired and paying for airplane stuff now.   Just not a user.   Thank you all for your financial support, though.  ;)

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