Paul_Havelka Posted April 13, 2019 Report Share Posted April 13, 2019 So I got to lay eyes on a Mooney for the first time today and sit in one along with my 2 sons (wife was napping at home). With me being 6’ and 220, the oldest is 5’10” and 185, I was wanting to see how we would fit in a short body and I was surprised how roomy it was. The wife and youngest are short stacks, 5’3” and 5’ (14 yo) respectively and they would have no issues sitting behind the 2 future non-student pilots. That being said, this aircraft is actually for sale and a search of it actually shows it was listed for sale on here back in 2013. The plane is located at KGMJ (Grove, OK) and I was wondering if anyone knew of a Mooney knowledgeable A&P in the general area for a potential PPI. The aircraft gets owner assisted annuals and the A&P IA is supposedly knowledgeable with the nuances of the Mooney. Some details are listed below. In addition to the below listed it does have the O&N bladders, 1 piece belly skin, a few of the speed mods like the flap hinge covers, tail root horizontal fairing, 1 piece (not 201) windshield. The paint isn’t the prettiest but if the bones are solid I can always get a paint job later. 1965 M20E Super 21, N5895Q, 4450 TT 420 SMOH (Custom Airmotive of Tulsa) Avionics: King KX155 Nav/Com with Glideslope King KX155 Nav/Com King KMA24 Audio Panel King KN62 DME King KR66 ADF Narco AT150 Transponder Electric Gear Much appreciated, Paul Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted April 13, 2019 Report Share Posted April 13, 2019 That came off the line about August 1965... just a few hulls before my old M20C. That has a long list of updates from what it left the factory with. Three big people fit in a Short body Mooney pretty well...the backseater turns sideways... good of luck with the next steps... An M20E makes a great forever-plane.... For your training pleasure... it would make a lot of sense to add a waas GPS... we have a source of used radios around here that may be helpful... find Alan when/if you go that far... @Alan Fox You have good approach capability with VORs and an ILS... The future of navigation is going GPS more everyday... a Waas GPS is one that is capable of providing a glide slope... older GPSi may not even be approach capable... know what you are getting before you push a buy button.... How is the training going? Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMuncy Posted April 13, 2019 Report Share Posted April 13, 2019 The best place for a PPI from almost anywhere in Okla is Don Maxwell Aviation in Longview, TX. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_Havelka Posted April 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2019 @carusoamTraining is going good in between my spotty work schedule as of late. My son should be soloing within the next week or so and I’m not too terribly far behind him. I did discuss with him that if we partnered that I would like to add some sort of WAAS gps source in addition to an adsb transponder and the first thing that popped into my mind when I saw the panel was @alanfox. Another thing I told my son I would want would be an engine monitor so that we can keep an eagle eye on what’s happening under the cowl as well as be better equipped to run her LOP when we want to. @donmuncyI knew that if no one was close that someone had vouched for that Mr Maxwell is well within Mooney distance for me. I would love to find someone willing to do a “potential owner” assisted PPI as I’m a firm believer that the more I know about the machine I am operating the easier it is for me to assist with a potential diagnosis when things start to go awry. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted April 14, 2019 Report Share Posted April 14, 2019 CR, I forgot where the CR family is living... See if you can put that in your avatar info... click on the big purple C and fill in some spots... Living close to the plane is helpful... Having the plane close to your favorite mechanic can be good too... recommending a good local mechanic, MS needs to know where local is... expect an annual to take a few days... three maybe four... The more you see, the more you know, the better off you will be... For comparison... an MSer is also selling a similar M20E... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_Havelka Posted April 14, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2019 @carusoam Fixed that. I am located in northeastern Oklahoma and the plane is in a hangar that is owned by the current owner at the local field that’s about 15 minutes from the house. He said if he were to sell it outright he’d be asking ~45k. If he’s willing to partner for 20k and everything checks out on a PPI then I think it’d almost be a no brainer. That way him and I could split any upgrade costs until he no longer wanted to maintain his 50% where I would then buy him out. He is currently building a sonex and has an ultralight in the hangar so I suspect that he’ll want to fly the sonex more than the Mooney for a while once the sonex is complete. The aircraft does have the wing leveler that is operational but would definitely look into the trutrack once we addressed any other wants that preceded an ap Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DustinNwind Posted April 14, 2019 Report Share Posted April 14, 2019 14 hours ago, carusoam said: CR, I forgot where the CR family is living... See if you can put that in your avatar info... click on the big purple C and fill in some spots... Living close to the plane is helpful... Having the plane close to your favorite mechanic can be good too... recommending a good local mechanic, MS needs to know where local is... expect an annual to take a few days... three maybe four... The more you see, the more you know, the better off you will be... For comparison... an MSer is also selling a similar M20E... Best regards, -a- I'd have a harder time comparing the two - I have new paint, new interior, glass in near perfect condition, the 201 mod is a very large speed improvement along with wing tips etc, engine was overhauled by a major facility (Western Skyways) with a lot of other fun gadgets added, and maintenance done by LASAR and a couple of others top Mooney houses it's whole life. If you saw the two on the ramp you would think they were different models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_Havelka Posted April 14, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2019 @DustinNwind From your for sale post I have no doubt that your ramp presence is more like the girl dressed to the nines whereas this is the punk/grunge chick...lol. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted April 14, 2019 Report Share Posted April 14, 2019 (edited) 19 hours ago, Creekrat said: @carusoam Training is going good in between my spotty work schedule as of late. My son should be soloing within the next week or so and I’m not too terribly far behind him. I did discuss with him that if we partnered that I would like to add some sort of WAAS gps source in addition to an adsb transponder and the first thing that popped into my mind when I saw the panel was @alanfox. Another thing I told my son I would want would be an engine monitor so that we can keep an eagle eye on what’s happening under the cowl as well as be better equipped to run her LOP when we want to.@donmuncy I knew that if no one was close that someone had vouched for that Mr Maxwell is well within Mooney distance for me. I would love to find someone willing to do a “potential owner” assisted PPI as I’m a firm believer that the more I know about the machine I am operating the easier it is for me to assist with a potential diagnosis when things start to go awry. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Getting to know your plane by being hands on with pulling it apart for inspection is a great way to go. Not all A&Ps are into you doing that though. For the PPI, you might be best served by prioritizing just finding someone who really knows the Mooney air frame. If you can't find a real Mooney expert locally, a trip to Texas as suggested above is the best option, despite the extra cost and inconvenience. If you buy it, consider putting in the cheapest ADS-b out solution you can find right now. The engine monitor is a good idea too, but skip the panel WAAS GPS. It adds very little utility for a VFR pilot. Just get to know the plane and navigate using an ipad and external ads-b in receiver for a bit. Upgrade the panel with a WAAS GPS and possibly more if and when you are committed to pursuing your instrument rating. The available panel avionics options and their cost are evolving pretty quickly for the better at the moment. Waiting until you are more ready to make full use those resources makes sense. Edited April 14, 2019 by DXB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_Havelka Posted April 14, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2019 Absolutely. I would want to move forward with the WAAS gps rather quickly as I would want to start working on my IR soon after getting my ppl. The current owner also expressed interest in getting his IR and seeing as my son will be working towards becoming a professional pilot he would need to start working on his IR rather soon as well. We’re both going for a couple hours today and the wife said we just needed to both become CFIs...lol. Maybe one day she’ll tell me to quit my job and fly for a living. Was hoping to get more time this week before I went back to work but our instructor is gone this week for a course to be checked out in a TBM 850. Apparently there are several in the area that need pilots. PaulSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted April 15, 2019 Report Share Posted April 15, 2019 Hiring for pilots hasn’t been this strong since the late 90s. Sounds like the stars are aligning if you are heading that direction. Back then it took 2000hrs or so of flight experience to build your resumé... It might be half that now... Flying a Mooney IFR is a great way to build some really useable experience... PP thoughts only, no professional flying experience.... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_Havelka Posted April 19, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 After looking around and doing some soul searching I'm going to pass on this aircraft. Just based off of what I saw in person and what I've seen in comparisons I think the gentleman that owns it has too much of an emotional attachment(owned it since 1992) and that is driving his current evaluation(45k). When I was walking around it I saw some flaws that I just don't think looked quite right to me. The first was that it had a 1 piece belly but it didn't seem to look like any others that I've seen. This one pretty much looked just like 1 sheet of sheet metal that was just screwed in place. No contours and the edges looked unfinished and just seemed "off" to me. The other big (to me) thing that I saw was that there had been some sort of damage just above the windshield right on the center line that had been patched with a small (2" x 4") piece of aluminum riveted in place. With that being said the wife and I are planning to pay some stuff off between now and next summer and if in the meantime a smoking deal on a solid airframe falls into my lap then I may jump on it but if not it'll be no different than I am right now. I don't have a plane...lol. For now I will continue to focus on my ppl training and once that is out of the way I will continue to rent my instructor's pa-28-140 whenever I want to get high and hopefully get some time with one or more of the very generous and knowledgeable MSers. My plan going forward will be to look for a clean E or F model for when the SWMBO says it's ok to pull the trigger. Paul 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLRDMD Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 8 minutes ago, Creekrat said: The other big (to me) thing that I saw was that there had been some sort of damage just above the windshield right on the center line that had been patched with a small (2" x 4") piece of aluminum riveted in place. As I recall the '65 E originally had an antenna there. Sounds like someone just removed it. A pre-buy by a knowledgable IA would have addressed both of the issues you mentioned, which may not be issues at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_Havelka Posted April 19, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 (edited) @KLRDMD This very well could be the case but I did see that there had been some damage there. There was some deformation of the surrounding aluminum that appeared like it was depressed enough in that area at some point to cause some creasing of the skin in that area. All in all I think I was pushing this a little more than I should have been. Who knows, maybe the owner and I will talk more about it and we may reach an agreement. I'm not going to bank or count on it but if it happens to pan out then great. If not then that leaves me in the same position I am in now which isn't exactly poor but with an airplane to call my own I most certainly would be...lol. Paul Edited April 19, 2019 by Creekrat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 Swmbo = chief finance administrator... The sheet metal up on top is quite flexible... easy to damage if Somebody was to lean on in an odd way... a good fix, probably requires taking out the interior ceiling pieces... that requires getting some motivation going... lots of easy to damage ancient plastic parts between the mechanic and the location to do the work... There is a steel hoop around the top of the windshield... you might be seeing a few fasteners where the hoop and the sheet metal are attached... a bit back from the windshield is where the ADF wire used to run from the cabin to the tail... you might see fasteners for the doubler that is under the skin... A few planes have an antenna hole centered in front of the windshield... many have been simply plugged or abandoned in place depending on excess cash flow... The logs have the history of what has been removed, and any fixes that have been put in place... get a copy of the logs and have a read... take some notes... Do this for this plane... in preparation for the actual plane you will buy in the days, months, years ahead.... Making comparisons is an easy way to see what stands out... PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_Havelka Posted April 19, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 @carusoam I think I’ll do that with the logbooks sometime within the next month or so during my hectic schedule. Going back offshore for 2 weeks and then coming back home for my oldest to graduate HS and then off on an 8 day cruise for his graduation with a big family group. I may see if I can sneak some time in to go review them and snap pictures with my phone, if he’s ok with it, and see what I can make heads or tails of. And I’m sure there are several of y’all here that would be more than willing to help me understand the logs just so that I know better what I’m looking at. I mean, I do have to work on this since I WILL be an airplane owner at some point Paul Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 Often, people selling a plane will have their logs scanned... ready to hand out. They make interesting reading about the history of the plane. Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_Havelka Posted April 28, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2019 Well I went ahead and ordered the FAA documentation on the aircraft and have been doing some digging. As per the FAA records this is what has been listed that is currently still on the E. - O&N bladders - LASAR smooth belly 129B - LASAR 103A & 103B, brake relocation and wheel well liners - Hartzell 3 blade topprop - InterAV 50A alternator - Mooney retrofit 1 piece windshield, as per drawing 940022 - Flap gap fairing kit - KMA24, KX155 (X2), KR86, KI208, KI209, KN62 (As long as everything is operational, would this be a doable IFR platform or would more be needed? I know GPS is the ticket but until this thing gets that upgrade would everything be sufficient?) - Nose gear truss was replaced due to dents in the original. PN 540004-501 circa 1988 If anyone just likes to read through FAA documentation I do have it saved and could send it but this is the jist of it all. @carusoam, After looking at it and other Mooneys of the same vintage I do believe that the doubler just above the windshield was from an old antenna. Once I get back home and get the @creekratjr HS graduation out of the way I'm going to see if I can meet up with the current owner and start to scour the logbooks. Will probably just take pictures of everything so I can look them over at my leisure. Oh and by the way, @creekratjr soloed this past week!!! Super proud of him and it looks like he may be on course to have his PPL before he turns 18 in July! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted April 28, 2019 Report Share Posted April 28, 2019 Empty spot for an old antenna, just became a new location for a new GPS antenna? All the old BK nav boxes are nice... most modern aviators are looking to add a WAAS GPS... Old GPS receivers can be found and installed. Their installation costs as much as a new GPS. So the finances get a bit more complicated... The pair of KX155s will work well at identifying intersections the old way... There must be some interesting history for that plane... it has waves of investment. Looks like the waves stopped coming in around the 90s. One wave miraculously included new belly panels and a prop? The logs will have the extent of the work... the PPI will verify the completion... PP thoughts only, not a CFII or mechanic... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekratjr Posted April 28, 2019 Report Share Posted April 28, 2019 Empty spot for an old antenna, just became a new location for a new GPS antenna? All the old BK nav boxes are nice... most modern aviators are looking to add a WAAS GPS... Old GPS receivers can be found and installed. Their installation costs as much as a new GPS. So the finances get a bit more complicated... The pair of KX155s will work well at identifying intersections the old way... There must be some interesting history for that plane... it has waves of investment. Looks like the waves stopped coming in around the 90s. One wave miraculously included new belly panels and a prop? The logs will have the extent of the work... the PPI will verify the completion... PP thoughts only, not a CFII or mechanic... Best regards, -a- I remember that the belly panels and prop were from a gear up landingSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted April 28, 2019 Report Share Posted April 28, 2019 I remember that the belly panels and prop were from a gear up landingSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Some owners have upgraded to the single belly pan after a gear up. They can then move the antenna under the single piece belly. I think you mentioned the one piece belly being made of metal. That is not the Lasar belly. Their belly skin is fiberglass.As for the radios. If you are in an area served by VOR and ILS approaches, you should be able to get by for IFR. More and more VOR approaches are being discontinued and this was one of the reasons I upgraded to a GPS. And even that upgrade has helped since my airport was still served by a VOR and I was hoping that the VOR would still be available until the GPS approaches are released for December. Here was the surprise that happened last month:Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_Havelka Posted April 28, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2019 It may not have been metal but I didn’t look at it very closely. I do know that the Topprop and belly pan were as a result of a gear collapse upon landing. According to the owner he went to retract the gear upon takeoff and the breaker popped. Tried it again and same story so he brought it back around and when he landed the gear collapsed. Guessing it traveled just enough to allow the collapse once weight was on it. It seems that the investments/mods stopped once the current owner acquired it in 1992. He was a contract aerospace engineer and said he would get an apartment wherever the contract was and use the E to fly to and from home on the weekends. He currently just holds a PPL but said he would like to get his IR. According to some of the records I have it looks like it was maintained in Kerrville at Dugosh for many years before making its way to the DFW area and finally to Oklahoma PaulSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted April 28, 2019 Report Share Posted April 28, 2019 Funky Modena (MXE) just got colder... Thanks go to Marauder for pointing out some of the actual shortcomings of ground based navigation, and the importance of checking notams before relying on nav aids... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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