WaynePierce

Interesting Insurance Qualification and the IR education

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So, I've started working on my Instrument Rating. Well at least the Ground School portion of it, and I'm in search of an independent CFI-I, no joy yet but haven't tied real hard. I got to thinking of my insurance policy and the line included for the hours I had to fly with a transition pilot: "Any pilot holding an FAA Private or Commercial Pilot Certificate with FAA Instrument Rating who has logged a minimum of 500 hours as Pilot in Command, at least 100 hours of which have been logged in retractable gear aircraft and at least 10 hours of which have been logged in a(n) Mooney Mark 20 Series Aircraft."

I've got a query in with the Insurance Company with the same questions so I'm not just asking a bunch of Mooneyiacs for advice, but rather what have you experienced? I know it's hard to believe but Mooney's aren't real common in these parts and finding a CFI-I with Mooney hours may be difficult, especially if I have to go to a school to look for an instructor that is just trying to get into big iron...(and probably looks like a 14 year old :-)

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*Members that donate $10 or more do not see advertisements*

That might cover the plane, but what about the poor guy you convince to be your safety pilot? is he covered with a waiver of subrogation on your policy, or does he get to bet his assets in your benevolence? 

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Get some clarification from your insurance company.  As long as you’re a licensed Private pilot or more, you can be PIC during all your IFR training.  Even in actual IMC.  Your instructor probably wants subrogation coverage or his own cfi insurance, but shouldn’t need to qualify as PIC or transition pilot on your airplane... you’re not doing this during your transition hours are you?

Edited by Ragsf15e

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That “Any Pilot” from above sounds more like it’s from the Open Pilot  clause 

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Tom Myers, Hot Springs. Tom Has Owned A 1965 "E" Model, & Currently Owns A 1978 "J". He Is A Professional Aviator & A CFII With18,400 Total Time, CFII, MEI, ATP. He Has 2,500 Instructor Hours;  2000 In Mooneys. Proficient In All Popular Avionics & Instrumentation, Steam And Glass. Tom Has Over 30 Years Airline Captain Experience, & Is Currently The Chief Pilot & FAA Check Airman For A 135 Air Ambulance Operation. He Flies His Mooney Into High Density Airspace Weekly. Tom Can Provide Flight Instruction (Private Through ATP), IPC, BFR, & Insurance Check Outs In All Mooney Models. 120 S. Lakeland Pt., Hot Springs, AR 71913, 501-655-1385.  .......from "The Mooney Flyer"

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I had this issue when starting my IR.  we simply added my cfii as a named pilot. He just lacked Mooney time but was qualified otherwise. Rates didn't change. 

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4 hours ago, rbridges said:

I had this issue when starting my IR.  we simply added my cfii as a named pilot. He just lacked Mooney time but was qualified otherwise. Rates didn't change. 

This is the way to go, and likely what a potential cfii will demand

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+1 on Being PIC...

You are fully insured and responsible... at the same time...

If young buck CFI has you doing things you wouldn’t do on your own... like slow flight at 1k’ agl with foggles on....

Use the phrase ‘unable’.  Foggles won’t make much of a difference when stalling at 1k’ agl.

 

When it comes to insurance questions... it is good to have @Parker_Woodruff around...  the legal-eze of insurance speak can be misunderstood easily.

 

PP thoughts only, when I had done some significant training in my plane... I had @Cris named on my insurance... he supplied several hours of instruction.  The additional cost of insurance was zero... I had to supply a copy of his resumé to the insurance broker... Cris’ resumé was simply a CFII with many hours and a Long Body owner.  Lots of hours and time in type...

Best regards,

-a-

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Always happy to give a look at your insurance policy if any questions.  You most likely won't have any trouble being covered, but your agent has your policy language and can confirm that.

 

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When I started Instrument work, my CFII [an 8000+ hr Regional airline pilot] needed 5 Mooney hours. Used my plane, with the nice guy who did my transition training but didn't have time / desire to go start-to-finish with a new Instrument student. No charges between any of us, but the -II paid for the fuel used.

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On 4/12/2019 at 5:18 PM, Ragsf15e said:

Get some clarification from your insurance company.  As long as you’re a licensed Private pilot or more, you can be PIC during all your IFR training.  Even in actual IMC.  Your instructor probably wants subrogation coverage or his own cfi insurance, but shouldn’t need to qualify as PIC or transition pilot on your airplane... you’re not doing this during your transition hours are you?

The transition hours have been signed off 6 months ago. I'll check in to the subrogation coverage when the Insurance representative responds to my inquiry.

 

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On 4/12/2019 at 5:45 PM, RLCarter said:

That “Any Pilot” from above sounds more like it’s from the Open Pilot  clause 

It is.

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This past week I passed my practical test and am a brand new instrument rating holder.   Should I contact my insurance agent and ask if there is any effect on my rate, or just save it until I renew in Sept?  Thanks.

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1 hour ago, Fred₂O said:

This past week I passed my practical test and am a brand new instrument rating holder.   Should I contact my insurance agent and ask if there is any effect on my rate, or just save it until I renew in Sept?  Thanks.

Awesome!  My insurance was set for the year. They wouldn't make any changes to the rate.  

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6 minutes ago, rbridges said:

Awesome!  My insurance was set for the year. They wouldn't make any changes to the rate.  

Mine, too.

Be sure to point it out, along with your increased Time in Type, at renewal. There should be a noticeable improvement in your premium, although it seems like rates are up for everyone this year.

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On 4/12/2019 at 6:08 PM, WaynePierce said:

So, I've started working on my Instrument Rating. Well at least the Ground School portion of it, and I'm in search of an independent CFI-I, no joy yet but haven't tied real hard. I got to thinking of my insurance policy and the line included for the hours I had to fly with a transition pilot: "Any pilot holding an FAA Private or Commercial Pilot Certificate with FAA Instrument Rating who has logged a minimum of 500 hours as Pilot in Command, at least 100 hours of which have been logged in retractable gear aircraft and at least 10 hours of which have been logged in a(n) Mooney Mark 20 Series Aircraft."

I've got a query in with the Insurance Company with the same questions so I'm not just asking a bunch of Mooneyiacs for advice, but rather what have you experienced? I know it's hard to believe but Mooney's aren't real common in these parts and finding a CFI-I with Mooney hours may be difficult, especially if I have to go to a school to look for an instructor that is just trying to get into big iron...(and probably looks like a 14 year old :-)

The prolonged search for the right CFII instructor while I prepped for the written paid off big for me.  The Mooniacs (sp?) here say that you want an instructor for whom the pitch-power configurations for your J model are already second nature. They also say you want someone who is perfectly comfortable taking you and your plane into actual IMC while flying from the right seat and will make sure you get more than just hood experience. Meeting those requirements will more than satisfy any insurance requirements for PIC.  You live in Memphis?  Someone here please help this gentleman find the right instructor. 

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9 hours ago, Fred₂O said:

This past week I passed my practical test and am a brand new instrument rating holder.   Should I contact my insurance agent and ask if there is any effect on my rate, or just save it until I renew in Sept?  Thanks.

First, big congrats!   Secondly, I was told by my insurance broker when I finished last May that I'd have to wait for my next renewal cycle in December.  The rate decrease at renewal was almost precisely balanced by the industry-wide rate increase last year, so essentially no change :mellow:

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Congrats on the rating, Fred!

See if our insurance guy @Parker_Woodruff has an answer for why the IFR discount lags until you renew the next time...

Unfortunately, for us... the consumer protections for planes aren’t the same as our typical home and auto needs.

Best regards,

-a-

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Just my thoughts and opinions.

  1. A CFII if acting independently may want to be listed on your insurance depending on his stage of life and assets and what insurance he carries on himself.  Listing the CFII on your insurance should not change the rates much if any.  He will probably have more flight time than you and he has more ratings.  (when I did my IR the independent instructor didn't mention anything about it and I didn't either.  I didn't even consider any of this.)
  2. You are the PIC so your insurance will cover you when flying.  The CFII is passenger along for the ride and providing guidance and suggestions.
  3. Going though an established school this may not be an issue.  However, I prefer independent CFIIs over schools.
  4. Start now and go hand fly procedures in VMC and without any view limiting devices.  This will give you the confidence to trust the instruments and the ability to play with setting up the radios, GPS and power settings all while being able to easily control the plane by visual references.  Then when you do get under the hood operating the radios and power settings are known.  I suggest using a non towered airport at first again to minimize distractions while learning your plane.  Don't forget to do you position reports.
  5. Many times unless you find someone like @mike_elliott you will be teaching the CFII how to fly your plane while he teaches you how to fly in IMC.
  6. Unless you are doing something really unsafe or strange the CFII should only be making minor suggestions on how you fly the plane during you IR.  He is there to train you for your IR.
  7. Do not use the AP in the plane during your IR training.  Know how to use it but do not.  This will benefit you greatly in the future.

 

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2 hours ago, 1964-M20E said:

 

  1. You are the PIC so your insurance will cover you when flying.  The CFII is passenger along for the ride and providing guidance and suggestions.

This area seems fuzzy to me, and you may know more than me here.  When VFR doing simulated work the hood, the student can clearly be PIC. But if one wants to file, fly in the system, and venture into IMC, it must be done on the CFI's ticket. Thus I don't see how the student can be PIC in that situation.  I realize the whole rating can be done without ever entering actual IMC, but I think most would agree that is suboptimal training.  

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2 minutes ago, DXB said:

This area seems fuzzy to me, and you may know more than me here.  When VFR doing simulated work the hood, the student can clearly be PIC. But if one wants to file, fly in the system, and venture into IMC, it must be done on the CFI's ticket. Thus I don't see how the student can be PIC in that situation.  I realize the whole rating can be done without ever entering actual IMC, but I think most would agree that is suboptimal training.  

Good point.  My actual IMC time when getting my IR was probably the best.  You cannot take the hood off and go home when you are in the soup and tired of shooting approaches.

I do feel that  you are still PIC even though the CFII may have filed the plan this get you into the system legally.   Then you get into the whole safety pilot realm and required crew etc. 

However, the original question revolves around insurance.  Again my personal thoughts and opinions are you are the owner, the insured and PIC then you are covered.

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19 minutes ago, DXB said:

This area seems fuzzy to me, and you may know more than me here.  When VFR doing simulated work the hood, the student can clearly be PIC. But if one wants to file, fly in the system, and venture into IMC, it must be done on the CFI's ticket. Thus I don't see how the student can be PIC in that situation.  I realize the whole rating can be done without ever entering actual IMC, but I think most would agree that is suboptimal training.  

Why not take all the mystery out of it, have all the attorneys sit on the same side of the table between you and the CFII. Put him on your policy as named insured additional pilot with a waiver of subrogation. If he has the requisite time in type, this should not result in an additional premium, but it does take away the carriers ability to hedge their bet with your CFI's assets. Only once has a client been charged to add me to his policy, and that was a zero time in Mooney 100 hr pilot. The carrier (avemco) just wanted to revenue enhance. Since that time, I probably have steered a half dozen new prospective insured away from Avemco as a result of this 100 cash grab.

Yea, it can be argued it dilutes the coverage, but a 100K/1M is still in effect, so I dont see how it dilutes the carriers responsibility.

 

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14 hours ago, carusoam said:

Congrats on the rating, Fred!

See if our insurance guy @Parker_Woodruff has an answer for why the IFR discount lags until you renew the next time...

Unfortunately, for us... the consumer protections for planes aren’t the same as our typical home and auto needs.

Best regards,

-a-

The insurance company is signing up for a year based on the information at the time the policy goes into effect.

Otherwise it would be a perpetual game of calling up the agent to call up the underwriter anytime a pilot added an extra hour of experience.

Or worse, a client adding and deleting flight coverage on each day he wants to fly.

the same happens in auto insurance, actually. If I had an accident on May 1, 2014 and my policy renews on April 15, 2019, their 5-year lookback on loss history is still going to affect my rates (higher premium) from April 15 to October 15 even though 5.5 months of the policy period is outside of the loss history date range that underwriting uses.

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Always good to discuss roles with your CFII... who is PIC, when, and why...

Any questions about your responsibility, discuss with your insurance... Will I be covered, when....

If there is any confusion, get it out of the way before you turn the key.

Mike’s guidance above is pretty good, he has been through it a few times...

Thanks to Parker for providing the inner workings of insurance.

PP thoughts only,  not an insurance guru...

Best regards,

-a-

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I always thought the CFII was Legal PIC whenever on an IFR flight plan with an Instrument student. Their name is even listed on the flight plan, mine never was. 

Now as sole manipulator, I was able to log PIC on those flights, but had anything happened from airspace violations to loss of separation, etc., it would have fallen back on the -II. Right? Accidents and incidents, too. The joys of being the Big Cheese!

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