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N711PP, new M20V gear collapse KOPF

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Many years ago a friend left his E at an FBO.  He returned, it was sitting in the same spot, he started the engine and the nose gear collapsed as soon as he began to taxi.  He told me and I don't know this to be accurate but sounds probable; He left the parking brake on, they tried to move the airplane with a tug, pushed it backward and found the parking brake on, unhooked and left the airplane in place.  The nose retract rods were bent when they attempted to push it back and the nose gear retracted as soon as the airplane moved.  Would not have caught this in the preflight as the nose trunnion itself was not damaged until later.  I can imagine something similar taking place with big chocks behind the mains and no parking brake.

Prompted me to buy insurance on my C.

Seems like the nose gear trunnion would have to have huge dents to collapse while being towed.  Just wondering what happened.

Edited by David Lloyd

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I keep thinking of Don Kaye when I read this post. He came through his ordeal with his beautiful plane. I’m hopeful you will too. Best of luck. 

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@OHAEDO so what makes this sad was in your first post I was admiring your white painted gear much like a nice pair of women's legs.   Sadly mine are yellowed and should be repainted.  

Even if the gear switch is filpped up and the safeties don't work (airspeed or squat)   you would have to unweight the gear for it to collapse.   It is all interconnected.

Going in there were only two things that could have happened here.   Factory missed something or some outside force caused damage.    Now we find it was a young kid with too much power.

Someone and maybe it is me has a picture of a Cirrus with a nosegear collapsed.

 

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Do Cirrus have caster nose wheels? Bonanzas?

Are Mooneys the only one with nose wheel steering and limited turn radius?


Tom

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16 minutes ago, jackn said:

I keep thinking of Don Kaye when I read this post. He came through his ordeal with his beautiful plane. I’m hopeful you will too. Best of luck. 

I was thinking of me, too, as I've been reading this thread.  Everything that was going through Omars mind went through mine, too.  It took awhile, (almost 4 months for me) to get back in the air, as Lycoming had to build the replacement engine, but everyone associated with the issue couldn't have handled it better including the insurance company (not mine).  I was able to get almost everything I asked for, (loss of use, new prop, new reman (I had to pay for part of that) and other things, including everything new firewall forward).  The plane looks and performs like new now.  Yours will, too, and with Mooney doing all the repairs, you are in good hands.

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1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

Do Cirrus have caster nose wheels? Bonanzas?

Are Mooneys the only one with nose wheel steering and limited turn radius?

Cirri nose wheels, like RVs, caster. Beech, Cessna, Piper and Mooney all have steerable nose wheels. Just like the steering tires on your car, how far the wheel turns is limited. 

Castering wheels, like the front shaky wheels on the shopping basket at your grocery store, will spin in circles. Castering airplane nose wheels sometimes shake just like the ones in the shopping carts, too . . . .

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Cirri nose wheels, like RVs, caster. Beech, Cessna, Piper and Mooney all have steerable nose wheels. Just like the steering tires on your car, how far the wheel turns is limited. 
Castering wheels, like the front shaky wheels on the shopping basket at your grocery store, will spin in circles. Castering airplane nose wheels sometimes shake just like the ones in the shopping carts, too . . . .

I thought Cessna (1502/172) was casters (been a long time)?


Tom

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22 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:


I thought Cessna (1502/172) was casters (been a long time)?


Tom

Nope

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Way to go, Omar!

I’m not sure why bad things happen to good people...

Or, why we need proof that this adage is true...

 

Every now and then ground strikes happen... they come in unexpected forms... many, while the owner isn’t within 100 nms of the plane.

 

By staying with MS during this trying time... just more proof... You are a good guy! :)

 

 Now, about those Cirri... they have the same rule as Mooneys... the third bounce is a prop strike.  Taken to the extreme, the nose gear collapses. Not because it is retractable or not, but because there is only so much strength that can be designed and built into airplane parts...

Any more strength used, they get called truck or sport Ute parts... anyone see a flying truck around..? They are not known for speed or efficiency...

 

Some of the goofiest questions that get asked... are by people who have great interest in what happened... what happens next... or how do I keep this from happening to me?... all great questions. Probably not delivered in the best way...

Out of thousands of MSers... We have about three that qualify as pro-writers... many of the rest of us, write things that can be, at times, misunderstood by others....  chronic writing offenders have the opportunity to get voted off the airway...

 

Keep up the good work. Get the plane back in the air.   Post a great post-op pic in ‘today’s flight’ thread...

Thanks for discussing this topic... that takes some internal strength.

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

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Way to go, Omar!
I’m not sure why bad things happen to good people...
Or, why we need proof that this adage is true...
 
Every now and then ground strikes happen... they come in unexpected forms... many, while the owner isn’t within 100 nms of the plane.
 
By staying with MS during this trying time... just more proof... You are a good guy! 
 
 Now, about those Cirri... they have the same rule as Mooneys... the third bounce is a prop strike.  Taken to the extreme, the nose gear collapses. Not because it is retractable or not, but because there is only so much strength that can be designed and built into airplane parts...
Any more strength used, they get called truck or sport Ute parts... anyone see a flying truck around..? They are not known for speed or efficiency...
 
Some of the goofiest questions that get asked... are by people who have great interest in what happened... what happens next... or how do I keep this from happening to me?... all great questions. Probably not delivered in the best way...
Out of thousands of MSers... We have about three that qualify as pro-writers... many of the rest of us, write things that can be, at times, misunderstood by others....  chronic writing offenders have the opportunity to get voted off the airway...
 
Keep up the good work. Get the plane back in the air.   Post a great post-op pic in ‘today’s flight’ thread...
Thanks for discussing this topic... that takes some internal strength.
Best regards,
-a-
 
 


Thank you. You honor me with your kind words. I’ll post when done. Thanks again. This is hard as heck!


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14 minutes ago, carusoam said:

 

Out of thousands of MSers... We have about three that qualify as pro-writers... many of the rest of us, write things that can be, at times, misunderstood by others....  chronic writing offenders have the opportunity to get voted off the airway...

Off topic, but I feel an urge to chuckle when you read a post, not usually on MS but certainly in the political realm, when an author is wearing out his Thesaurus trying to make his/her point sound intelligent. 

Back on topic,

Good luck and speed to the factory in repairing your bird Omar. 

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5 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Strengthening it would be a good idea, generally.  But it is hard for me to imagine strengthening those tubes sufficiently to withstand being torqued by a massive FBO tug and then still being sufficiently strong while cracked.

simplify and strengthen the whole system - make it castering and steer with brakes.  then i could be sure to replace my brakes at least annually!

It is the nose gear that stands in the way of increased Max Landing (and probably all the others) weight.  The M22 Mustang gear could be adopted/adapted to replace the mains, but that nose gear is too big to put away.

-de

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2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Do Cirrus have caster nose wheels? Bonanzas?

Are Mooneys the only one with nose wheel steering and limited turn radius?


Tom

Diamond singles caster.  The twins are steerable.  It is probably just the mass of the twins that makes differential braking insufficient.

-de

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4 hours ago, OHAEDO said:

Mooney guy told me there’s no way I could tell as the damage is done internally.

^...... This statement seems rather confusing. Internal damage?

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20 minutes ago, David_H said:

^...... This statement seems rather confusing. Internal damage?

Sorry.  Let me say it this way:  Q: Would I have been able to see this in pre-flight?  A:  No.  I'd have to stick my head up the gear to see this.  Or something like that.  It's been quite the week.  I'll ask again when in KERV to make sure I share the learnings of this debacle with all.

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8 minutes ago, OHAEDO said:

Sorry.  Let me say it this way:  Q: Would I have been able to see this in pre-flight?  A:  No.  I'd have to stick my head up the gear to see this.  Or something like that.  It's been quite the week.  I'll ask again when in KERV to make sure I share the learnings of this debacle with all.

I hope you're able to get everything back on track quickly. It really is a let-down to have to go through this with a new plane. The good part is that Mooney will likely get you back in the air quickly.

About the pre-flight inspection though: Checking the nose-gear on a Mooney after being handled by line-crew is pretty much a set-in-stone requirement by many Mooney savvy pilots. Everyone has their own preferred pre-flight inspection methods.

I personally feel much better after getting down on the ground to look the nose-gear over. Even though I don't normally like to roll around on the ground, the peace-of-mind to ensure the nose-gear is damage free seems worth it to me.

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1 hour ago, David_H said:

I hope you're able to get everything back on track quickly. It really is a let-down to have to go through this with a new plane. The good part is that Mooney will likely get you back in the air quickly.

About the pre-flight inspection though: Checking the nose-gear on a Mooney after being handled by line-crew is pretty much a set-in-stone requirement by many Mooney savvy pilots. Everyone has their own preferred pre-flight inspection methods.

I personally feel much better after getting down on the ground to look the nose-gear over. Even though I don't normally like to roll around on the ground, the peace-of-mind to ensure the nose-gear is damage free seems worth it to me.

I’ll sometimes reach under and run my fingers on the truss, but does not go well if you are dressed up since that seems to be where my extra oil ends up.   Also, not as easy with bigger engine Mooney’s.  Perhaps this is an option for our preflight kits:  https://www.amazon.com/Ullman-HTS-2L-Long-Inspection-Extendable-Swivel-Handle-Inspection/dp/B008Z67J78/ref=asc_df_B008Z67J78/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312165915975&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10003383337934341487&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9003355&hvtargid=pla-568737419953&psc=1

(Long extension mirror in case link implodes)

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I hope I did not imply this had anything to do with Mooney.  I did not mean to even remotely imply that.
I’ve seen towing damage too many times and it is all on the person towing.
 
It is outstanding that Mooney International would provide Omar technical assistance in person, take lead in getting it ready to ferry back to the Factory for a NEW engine and Prop, when they had no culpability for the incident. I wonder if competitive makes take such pride in their after sale support?
You have a strong family behind you here, Omar.


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Other than money and emotions, I would suggest nothing was really hurt on the plane.   Paint some new panels, bolt a new engine and prop on.   Should be flying in a couple of weeks.

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On 4/13/2019 at 5:50 PM, mike_elliott said:

It is outstanding that Mooney International would provide Omar technical assistance in person, take lead in getting it ready to ferry back to the Factory for a NEW engine and Prop, when they had no culpability for the incident. I wonder if competitive makes take such pride in their after sale support?
You have a strong family behind you here, Omar.


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 

I was thinking that Mooney couldn’t have a better opportunity to turn this into a positive all-around, especially for relatively inexpensive PR. 

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On 4/13/2019 at 12:13 PM, exM20K said:

simplify and strengthen the whole system - make it castering and steer with brakes.  then i could be sure to replace my brakes at least annually!

It is the nose gear that stands in the way of increased Max Landing (and probably all the others) weight.  The M22 Mustang gear could be adopted/adapted to replace the mains, but that nose gear is too big to put away.

-de

You dont want to give up your steering.

I can't think of any free castering retracts. I'm guessing without a centering mechanism you'll run into trouble stowing the gear 

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