Seeking Mooney Wisdom

[Chopper Dog]

A little about me.

Back in the summer of 2001 my wife looked at me and said, “ I am tired of hearing about flying, either go and learn or be quiet. Besides the children are not getting cheaper.” That was a learning experience. Apparently, I talked about flying a lot and, unbelievably, the kids were going to get more expensive (as it turned out, a lot more).

 

I went and got my PPL and flew until about 2007. The last 3 years or so I was looking at Cherokee 6’s and thinking I have a family of 5 and this would be a great way of travel. The kids did get more expensive and the economy had some “issues”, so I quit flying.

 

Fast forward 12 years and I only have 1 left in college, I am retired, looking at getting current and I have got the green light to buy a plane.

 

I have been thinking. I could buy a RV 9 to build a little time, but they seem to be about the same price as an older Mooney. If I buy an already built RV I will lose the advantage of doing my own maintenance. Mooney’s are extremely efficient planes so operating costs should be low (relatively), realistically most of my flying will be with 2 people and more than 4 will be rare.

 

So, I could buy an old C model (cheapest option) and fly it to get some time, experience and see if I want to upgrade to a more recent model.

 

All things considered I could spend more and get an F or later model as the interior is supposed to be bigger (is that true?, I am 6’2”, 240lbs) and that could be a longer term, more comfortable plane.

 

Or should I just buy a 201J and that will be my forever plane (I am 62). Initial cost and total cost of ownership will be a consideration, obviously.

 

Can I get some thoughts on the subject from you current pilots?

 

Thx,

ChopperDog

[David Lloyd]

Somewhere, someone probably here said to buy your last plane first.  I've owned airplanes 40 years including an RV7.  Am selling that to buy another Mooney.  

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, David Lloyd said:

Somewhere, someone probably here said to buy your last plane first.  I've owned airplanes 40 years including an RV7.  Am selling that to buy another Mooney.  

Sometime, not real soon, I’m going to make the opposite trade. I have a feeling it will take as long to find a really nice RV as it does a Mooney. 

[NJMac]

Short bodies make really nice 1 or 2 people planes. No need to pay upfront for a mid body if you dont need it.

I've found myself, when carrying passengers, to have a child or 2 with me waaaaay more than I originally imagined. I intentionally have been taking friends with kids on breakfast runs and didn't consider that when purchasing my E. Thankfully they've been young and can fit easily. Goal is to get a few kids hooked.

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[Marauder]

I think which way you go depends on what kind of flying you plan on doing. If you are planning on doing cross country traveling on a regular basis, then going Mooney makes a lot of sense. A Mooney is a great IFR platform. If you can swing an F or J, I would go that way. Although a nice E will be more than enough.

 

If you think you will be doing mostly local hamburger runs and other local trips, you can’t beat an RV. The RVs I have flown are pretty light on the controls and extremely maneuverable.

 

I would go out and fly in both to see what you like.

 

 

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[StevenL757]

@Chopper Dog, welcome to the forum.  Please do share a bit more about your mission and also where you’re located.  This helps tailor answers and feedback a bit more to your situation and helps everyone here to help you make an informed choice.

Steve.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, CD.

Nicely worded first post.

Part of the reward of building a successful family.... the kids grow up and chase their dreams...

They May end up a couple of hundred miles away... nothing a firebird can’t cover... every other month or so... a five hour ride in nice weather.

Over time... That kind of travel discomfort leads to only visiting on major holidays...

 

I did it slightly differently... I was the young guy that moved away... the firebird, a real experience...

Keeping the family together, I found an M20C could bridge that distance in just over an hour.

Shooting over for lunch, hang out for a few hours, be back before dark.... no traffic.

The firebird plan worked well until the kids arrived... how many diaper stops are there in a five hour drive, that’s on a good weather day....

Traveling that distance was too far to go by firebird, as often as we wanted to go there...

Because we had an M20C...

• My kids new their grandparents very well...
• Sometimes we visited weekly, over the summers...
• Sometimes we visited daily or on the drop of hat... when grandma fell ill....
• As the kids grew up, it was harder to hide Santa presents under a blanket in the back of the plane... so we threw on another flight to deliver the presents without anyone figuring it out...

With a decade of M20C experience, and the invention of MS... We could have determined...

• If the M20C is really the right plane for the mission.
• The M20E has one attribute that makes it better. The IO360...
• The M20G has one attribute that makes it better. The 10” more space in the back seat area...
• The M20F has the two attributes combined in one plane...

Overall, I have called the M20E the perfect retirement plane...

• Factory built
• Four seat
• Normally aspirated
• Fuel injected, capable of running deep LOP...
• Fully updateable to modern standards.

For comparison...

The oldest MSer was still flying in his 80s with an M20J... he picked a great personal time to hang up his flying boots.  Find Bennet...

The youngest MSer is still flying in his 20s with a C converted M20D... Find Alex...

There are so many choices, analysis paralysis can eat into your flying time...

Write out what your flying mission is typically going to be and match the Mooney that Best fits the mission...

If you need to quiet the paying passenger (finance administrator) in the back seat... get the biggest comfy back seat available.... go Long Body!

Enjoy the hunt.

Oops, just realized you were seeking wisdom... these were just ideas that came to mind... 

Bob may wander by later... he has one of those perfect retirement planes... clearly marked ‘Pilot Perfect’ right on the side...

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy...

Best regards,

-a-

[donkaye]

You've got a lot of good flying years left.  Buying and selling planes is not a whole lot of fun.  Also. a plane becomes a part of the family, and the thought of letting it go, well.....

I had about 425 hours when I saw the picture of the Mooney TLS on the front cover of Flying Magazine.  I didn't even have an Instrument Rating at that time.  I went out and got that rating.  Within a month, I had found the perfect plane for me in Trade-A-Plane.   It's almost 27 years of ownership and 11,000+ flight hours later.  I got my CFI, CFII, and Single Engine ATP in mine.  In 6,200+ hours of teaching in every model Mooney except the D and G (there aren't many of those out there) I think I have a little perspective on the Mooney.  Buy the most Mooney model that you can afford.  You never get tired of the speed.  I've taught in Cessnas and Pipers and the Mooney handles better in turbulence than any of them.

While any Mooney Model is a good Mooney, the long body offers quite a bit more overall room, especially if you remove the back seats.  I have 2 weight and balances; 1 for 4 seats and 1 for 2 seats.   They are easy to reinstall, but I don't remember when I have used the back seats.

I could go on, but you get the point.  You aren't getting any younger.  Save yourself the hassle and get the most airplane you can afford now, while you're still young. 

[MrRodgers]

You've got a lot of good flying years left.  Buying and selling planes is not a whole lot of fun.  Also. a plane becomes a part of the family, and the thought of letting it go, well.....
I had about 425 hours when I saw the picture of the Mooney TLS on the front cover of Flying Magazine.  I didn't even have an Instrument Rating at that time.  I went out and got that rating.  Within a month, I had found the perfect plane for me in Trade-A-Plane.   It's almost 27 years of ownership and 11,000+ flight hours later.  I got my CFI, CFII, and Single Engine ATP in mine.  In 6,200+ hours of teaching in every model Mooney except the D and G I think I have a little perspective on the Mooney.  Buy the most Mooney model that you can afford.  You never get tired of the speed.  I've taught in Cessnas and Pipers and the Mooney handles better in turbulence than any of them.
While any Mooney Model is a good Mooney, the long body offers quite a bit more overall room, especially if you remove the back seats.  I have 2 weight and balances; 1 for 4 seats and 1 for 2 seats.   They are easy to reinstall, but I don't remember when I have used the back seats.
I could go on, but you get the point.  You aren't getting any younger.  Save yourself the hassle and get the most airplane you can afford now, while you're still young. 

Don’s advice above is spot on. Get the most Mooney you can and enjoy it. As far as which model for your size. I have a 67 F and at 6’3” and 220 lbs I’m very comfortable in the plane. The F model is 10” longer and that really translates to both front and back seat comfort.


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[Stan]

Chopper Dog,

I can’t really add to any of the good advice from the others.

I just want to throw this into the mix:

I am older than you and my last three airplanes have been my “forever airplane.”

Also, somehow I always find some other place to fly, be it 100 miles or across the U.S.

Sometimes the hunt is as good as the acquisition, then enjoy your new ride.

[Chopper Dog]

Thanks for all the replies, I really appreciate it.

Additional info...

I was born, raised and have lived all my life in Memphis. Memphis has a great many fine qualities not the least of which is some of the best BBQ, down home southern cooking, Italian or Mexican food you will ever eat. It is also a wonderful place to raise a family however, it is in the middle of nowhere. The closest cities of any size are St Louis, Nashville, Little Rock and Jackson, MS and they are all it least 3 hours away. I have relatives all over Arkansas, Kentucky & Tampa. I also have friends scattered around.

Taking account all of the above I am sure that I will fly my share of hundred dollar hamburgers but my intention is to use my plane to travel. I would love to take xcountry trips in my own plane. I have always enjoyed reading about the trips that people take in their own airplanes. I read one the other day about a guy that flew his Mooney to Baja (http://www.mooneyland.com/baja-mexico-true-family-adventure/).

Another thought is I would like to work on my instrument rating, I suspect that would come in handy from time to time.

If anybody has any other thoughts, please add them.

 

Thx for welcoming me to the community.

 

CD

[carusoam]

CD,

want a Mooney geography lesson?

Find the thread titled Today’s Flight.

Imagine for a moment re-learning geography by visiting 50 major cities and national parks around the US....

Flying to Mexico? How about... the arctic circle... around the US... around the Caribbean... direct to Cuba... or the Keys... how about to and from Europe via green, ice, and ire land... all stories and videos found on MS...

My favorite Mooney flights to Mexico are Doctors and Dentists without borders...? Doing the voluntary type work that they do...  Mooneys making the world a better place... 

PP thoughts only, some assembly of an IR may be required....

Best regards,

-a-

[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

My favorite Mooney flights to Mexico are Doctors and Dentists without borders...? Doing the voluntary type work that they do...  Mooneys making the world a better place... 

I'll be doing another Flying Samaritans trip April 11. Need to find my camera and mount it to the airplane again.

[rbridges]

I skimmed so I may have missed it. As a pilot, you will see no difference in space between a C/E and F/G/J.  they do get longer, but its aft of the pilots seat and between the engine and firewall.  Needless to say, height isn't an issue, but if you're big on the middle, that could make things challenging.

[Herlihy Brother]

+1 on caruso's post. and +1 on Don's post. Any Mooney will treat you well. The e, which I have had for 20+ years,  is a perfect retirement cross country or countryside cruiser. Low and slow or high and fast. It does both economically and with style. Compared to brand B, parts and maintenance are 1/2 at least. Al  mooney did us all a great service with his 20th design.  Wonderfully smooth push rod controls, economical and reliable manual gear and flaps, a bullet proof lycoming, many say is the most reliable GA aircraft engine ever produced...Its hard to find a shortcoming.  If 10 knots extra means that much to you then there is always the luxurious and beautiful Bo at a higher capx and opx.

[moodychief]

I bought my C model out of convenience.  It was a Mooney owned by a friend and he was in a position to sell when I was looking to buy thinking I would only have it 3-4 years then move up to a F or J.  1,100 hours later my wife and I are still flying it.  It has been the perfect airplane for us as we find 99% of our flights are just two people.  Living in Little Rock area we can be a lot of places in little time.  Two weeks ago, I flew to Crestview FL via Birmingham, spent the night with friends and was back home by 2:30 pm on Saturday.  I have been to Monterey, Maine, all along the east coast, Bahamas and Oshkosh and UP Michigan.  Kids live in MO so we fly to Branson 1-2 times a month (have a van parked at KPLK).  Since I am still working, this plane has allowed my wife and I to enjoy things that wouldn’t have been possible if we had to drive.  People always preach define your mission and buy a plane to fit your mission.  The C model has fit our mission.  Wouldn’t have minded having an E model.

Even though the kids are out of the house you now have to start thinking about the grandkids!

[BaldEagle]

My first Mooney was an E -- great airplane and I'd occasionally do 1,000 miles in a day (San Diego to Portland / Seattle); it was a fantastic economical cross country machine but also perfect for $100 burger runs.  But when I got my instrument ticket I found that I couldn't really fly IFR due to the ancient avionics and to extract more utility out of the plane would mean spending serious $$$ on upgrades.  My second Mooney was an early J (which I currently own), which has much greater utility due to modern (ish) avionics.  The advice to buy the most Mooney you can afford, and to buy the airplane that best suits your mission, is really good advice.  Always cheeper to buy once.  (That said, I see an Ovation in my future... maybe 10 years down the road... if I reach my retirement goals...)

[peevee]

Has it been mentioned that you can still do your own maintenance on an experimental if you didn't build it? What you can't do is the annual condition inspection.

[MrRodgers]

On 3/24/2019 at 1:43 PM, rbridges said:

I skimmed so I may have missed it. As a pilot, you will see no difference in space between a C/E and F/G/J.  they do get longer, but its aft of the pilots seat and between the engine and firewall.  Needless to say, height isn't an issue, but if you're big on the middle, that could make things challenging.

In truth the extra 10" added to the F and later airframes was divided between both the front and rear seats.  At 6'3" 225lbs I am very comfortable with my plane solo or with passengers.

[rbridges]

30 minutes ago, MrRodgers said:

In truth the extra 10" added to the F and later airframes was divided between both the front and rear seats.  At 6'3" 225lbs I am very comfortable with my plane solo or with passengers.

I could be mistaken but I've seen it referenced that 5" were between front and back seats and 5" were ahead of the firewall.  I think it was to maintain CG.

[ArtVandelay]

I could be mistaken but I've seen it referenced that 5" were between front and back seats and 5" were ahead of the firewall.  I think it was to maintain CG.

I cannot imagine there is 5 less inches in front of the firewall in the J. It’s tight enough as it is.



Tom

[Bob_Belville]

Well... the 10" that differentiates the C & E from the F & J is split between the back seat leg room and the baggage area. The front seat room of all those models are the same.

Other than that little confusion, there's a lot a great comments above.

@carusoam  mentioned my retirement plane. I starting flying in a E model 50 years ago and owned another one for a long time when I was working - back in the '70s/'80s. Then I didn't fly for more than 20 years. At age 68 I bought another "Super 21" thinking I might be lucky enough to fly another 5 years. Now 76, I'm on a second 5 year plan and expect to log about 100 hours in '19. From NC we've done a MAPA PPP at Lakeland, Red Sox Spring Training in Ft. Myers, Sun 'n Fun in Lakeland as well as shorter trips to Edenton NC. etc. Still on the docket is MooneyMax in Longview, some Mooney Caravan formation flying before picking up a grandson in MA and sharing AirVenture with him. 

You will want to get that instrument ticket. The training will make you a much safer pilot even if your retirement status means you don't have to launch into serious weather. 

Great avionics are available for our old airframes... in fact a 10 or 15 year old plane probably will have a panel inferior to what's in my '66E and certainly won't compare to Don Kaye's M20M.    

Happy hunting!

[Bob_Belville]

7 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

I cannot imagine there is 5 less inches in front of the firewall in the J. It’s tight enough as it is.



Tom

Not how it works. The F/J cabin is 10" longer than the C/E. Some (~half?) of it is added forward of the center of lift. 

[EricJ]

If you're not expecting to have a lot of passengers in the back seats, then whether it's a short- or mid- or long-body won't make much difference.   That additional space really mostly benefits the folks in the back.

Having done something similar in the last few years (got current again and bought an airplane), I'd suggest just focus on getting current again in whatever is available for rent locally, get a complex endorsement if you haven't already (in whatever is available), and then once you're back in the saddle that way start looking around with the benefit of your getting-current experiences.   There are usually plenty of Mooneys for sale out there, especially C and J models, so I don't think there's much need to be in a rush.  

Regardless, best of luck getting back in the game.   I had a ton of fun doing it and wound up with what has turned into a very nice airplane.

[ArtVandelay]

Not how it works. The F/J cabin is 10" longer than the C/E. Some (~half?) of it is added forward of the center of lift. 

From the looks of it, the wings are in the same position for every model, about even with the firewall.

Which model did they start putting the battery in the tail?

My Js arm is little over 46”, how does that compare to yours?

 

From internet source, my arm is 46.3 vs 45.7 for a C.

 

Tom