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I've read through all 10 pages of this thread but still have some questions. I am looking at purchasing an older M20F with a panel handed down from Noah when done with his Ark. So I have concluded that pretty much it all has to go.

A couple of obvious points - money is not unlimited. If money were no object I'd buy a newer airplane,  and equip it with G500 Txi and dual GTN750s and a GFC500 autopilot and ADSB In/Out transponder. So I am looking at a far more cost effective plan to get utility without necessarily being the coolest.

It seems to me that dual GNC225s and a GNX375 would take care of all the navigation and communication needs. My thinking here it that is that you get the very latest in GPS guidance, but should the GPS fail or weather be so bad that an ILS must be attempted, as opposed to an LPV, the GNC225 is there for that. Apart from the lack of NavCom the GNX375 is the same as a GTN750 but with a smaller screen. Which brings me to my first question. I've read the G3X manual but the flight planning section is not definitive. The G3X can contain its own flight plans for VFR use and they can be edited on the G3X. It can also use external flight plans from a GNX375. Where the manual is silent is can the flight plan in the GNX375 be edited from the G3X? If it can, which given Connext seems plausible, then the smallness of the GNX375 screen doesn't really matter. Even if it can't I assume it could be edited from an iPad running ForeFlight or Garmin Pilot.

The major advantage, as I see it of the G3X over dual G5s is having a nice MFD display. but there is an app from Guardian Avionics that suggests that you can use an iPad as an MFD and even as an EIS. The Guardian Avionics website is not clear, at least to me, how all this works. But if an iPad were mounted in the panel running the SmartMFD software would it be possible to remove the original engine instruments, as it is with a JPI EDM930?

It seems that dual G5s, and iPad as MFD/EIS, 2 GNC225s and a GNX375, and a GFC500 would make a very capable airplane at less dollars.

Comments?

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24 minutes ago, LimeyTX said:

and iPad as MFD/EIS, 2 GNC225s and a GNX375, and a GFC500 would make a very capable airplane at less dollars.

Comments?

An iPad is a hugely capable solution relative to its cost.

But there's no such thing as a free lunch.  Any engine display on a portable device is going to be supplementary, not primary.  Ditto the use of a portable device for any sort of navigation.  And because it's a portable device, there's always the possibility that it has a dead battery, or has overheated, or the dog ate it, or whatever - at the least convenient time.

If you want bang for the buck, there's not much better than a tablet with an EFB app.  But there are definitely trade-offs, and you just need to be comfortable with them.

(This topic gets discussed on MS about once a week, and it's always lively and interesting..)

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And I guess to answer the actual question you asked...  I think that using an iPad instead of a G3X will be a hell of a lot cheaper.  You'll have a brand-new digital AP, a brand-new digital transponder and ADS-B in/out solution, and a couple of nice new digital radios. 

I have a fair amount of time now behind G5s, and they are great little units.  But they definitely aren't a "glass panel," and a tablet imo is a relatively poor substitute for a G3X if money is no object.

On the other hand, if money *is* an object, then your proposed solution sounds pretty good to me.  You'll leap forward about 60 years in capability and it will cost you about 50% of what the full G3X solution (with EIS) would cost you.

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I would want to think about how much of "Noah's" panel has to be replaced. If it's the whole thing including 6-pack instruments, engine gauges, com's/nav's, and autopilot, you're probably looking at a cost equal or greater than the purchase price of the plane. 

If the panel only needs a few things updated. For example, it has a good autopilot, but needs a WAAS GPS and some other bits, you might pay 10% more for the plane but could safe 50% on the upgrade cost. 

It's almost always cheaper to buy the plane with the upgrades done, then to upgrade it yourself.  Although we love upgrading Mooneys around here, especially when it's done with other people's money. 

If you're buying a "forever" airplane, and this typically isn't the case if it's a first airplane, then upgrading can make sense. Examples are @Marauder, @Bob_Belville, @Bryan, and myself among others.

There are others (I have a list) who bought a Mooney with intentions to upgrade it only to realize it's much more expensive and time consuming then they realized and only part way through the project discover they could have bought the plane of their dreams for less money.

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16 hours ago, LimeyTX said:

I. but there is an app from Guardian Avionics that suggests that you can use an iPad as an MFD and even as an EIS. The Guardian Avionics website is not clear, at least to me, how all this works. But if an iPad were mounted in the panel running the SmartMFD software would it be possible to remove the original engine instruments, as it is with a JPI EDM930?

The Guardian is just a remote display for another engine monitor.  It will display data from:

  • J.P. Instruments (JPI) EDM 730
  • J.P. Instruments (JPI) EDM 830
  • J.P. Instruments (JPI) EDM 900 Primary

as shown on their website at https://www.guardianavionics.com/smartplane-supported-devices

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2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

There are others (I have a list) who bought a Mooney with intentions to upgrade it only to realize it's much more expensive and time consuming then they realized and only part way through the project discover they could have bought the plane of their dreams for less money.

The one thing to keep in mind with the "buy" instead of "build" approach to avionics is that panel layout and functionality tend to be very subjective.  If you're dead-set on buying a plane with all the upgrades done, then you also need to accept that the previous owner very likely made a bunch of decisions that you wouldn't have made yourself.  They took the $80k hit on a 21st century panel, but they did it with their own set of priorities.

This isn't necessarily a good thing or a bad thing.  You get $80k worth of upgrades for a $40k bump in purchase price.  But for people who are very particular about their panel, this may mean throwing more money at an already-upgraded plane just to get things the way you want them.  Think Garmin vs Avidyne, JPI vs EI, etc.

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1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

Is 2 225s and 375 less than a 225 and a 650 after installation costs?


Tom

I don't know but the alternative would have to be a 225, a 650 and a 345 because I still need a transponder, so you save a 375($7995) and a 225($4495) but you add a 650($10,095) and a 345($4995) but the number of units to install stays the same so I can't imagine installation cost changes much.

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1 hour ago, 201Mooniac said:

The Guardian is just a remote display for another engine monitor.  It will display data from:

  • J.P. Instruments (JPI) EDM 730
  • J.P. Instruments (JPI) EDM 830
  • J.P. Instruments (JPI) EDM 900 Primary

as shown on their website at https://www.guardianavionics.com/smartplane-supported-devices

Yes, but I was unclear about how. For example, if you have a JPI EDM 930 installed then there is no point in replicating the display on an iPad. But maybe JPI makes a  unit without a display that could then be used to drive an iPad which might make some sense. But if you have to have the JPI display on the panel it seems pointless to replicate it.

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44 minutes ago, toto said:

The one thing to keep in mind with the "buy" instead of "build" approach to avionics is that panel layout and functionality tend to be very subjective.  If you're dead-set on buying a plane with all the upgrades done, then you also need to accept that the previous owner very likely made a bunch of decisions that you wouldn't have made yourself.  They took the $80k hit on a 21st century panel, but they did it with their own set of priorities.

This isn't necessarily a good thing or a bad thing.  You get $80k worth of upgrades for a $40k bump in purchase price.  But for people who are very particular about their panel, this may mean throwing more money at an already-upgraded plane just to get things the way you want them.  Think Garmin vs Avidyne, JPI vs EI, etc.

This is very true... although my experience is that for models C through F, you're more likely to get the $80K of upgrades for a $20K bump in price. The difference between the two figures gets narrower as you go up (newer) in models.

Also why my suggestion is the "buy" approach for the first airplane to figure out exactly what you like, where your priorities are, etc. Then on the second or final airplane, build it the way you want it.

With my M20C I paid top dollar $50K to get the best panel I could find already installed. After a couple of years flying it, I sold it and bought the 252. And this being my "forever" airplane, I've taken the "build" approach to get it done exactly to my specifications. But it's costly, and I'll likely get much less than 50% return on the investment when I go to sell. 

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6 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Is 2 225s and 375 less than a 225 and a 650 after installation costs?


Tom

There's another concern.  IIRC, Certified G5 can only handle one navigation source.  If you want THREE nav sources in your plane, and you are running a G5 as your primary AI/HSI, prepare to buy two additional GI-106As so that your secondary navigators have displays.  The experimental version can handle two nav inputs, and people ask for it periodically, and Garmin is aware that there's demand, so maybe it'll happen but I wouldn't bank on it being less than a year unless they announce it at Oshkosh and you'll still need one GI-106A for the third nav.  The G3X can handle two inputs, and it can be set up so that failover will still get you nav 1 plumbed to the G5.  If the G5 STC is expanded to handle two NAVs in certified installs, probably you'll be able to set it up so that both can handle each of two nav sources and get full redundancy in case you lose the G3X and NAV1.  Independent failure seems unlikely but if you lose the G3X and you're flying off the G5 and you routinely use both navs for stuff (keep the second one tuned to VORs for cross-check, for instance) the ability to have both run into the G5 will result in less of a modification of workflow.  A trio of navigators is not really well supported by Garmin's budget line.  You're almost certainly going to be better off with a GTN-650/GNC-255/GTX345 combo.  Spring for the 750 if you can.  I got the 650 and I still kick myself for trying to save that $5k because I _need_ the six GPS outputs and the 750 would give me an in-panel way to display approach plates.

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56 minutes ago, LimeyTX said:

Yes, but I was unclear about how. For example, if you have a JPI EDM 930 installed then there is no point in replicating the display on an iPad. But maybe JPI makes a  unit without a display that could then be used to drive an iPad which might make some sense. But if you have to have the JPI display on the panel it seems pointless to replicate it.

I checked the JPI website and didn't find anything without a display so I believe you'll have to have the JPI display.

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  • 2 years later...

very interesting thread comparing the differences of the G3X vs G500TXI.  At the time of this last thread the GI275 was not out.  Now that there is the GI275 that CAN drive the KFC-150 autopilot.  would some of you change your mind about having to go with the G500TXI because it was the only one that could drive the legacy autopilots like KFC-150 and get the G3X with a GI275 instead of a G5? or is that even allowed?

 

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the 275 or the G5 are allowed as back ups for the G3X touch. A friend of mine kept doing the math and his KFC 150 was working great so he went with 2 275s and  kept the KFC.  That thing flies great. But the problem is the next time a servo breaks and it's gonna cost him five grand to fix he's going to wonder about the value proposition then.

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12 hours ago, jetdriven said:

But the problem is the next time a servo breaks and it's gonna cost him five grand to fix he's going to wonder about the value proposition then.

Or he'll get one off eBay for $250 ;-)

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we've done this too. The KFC150 isnt cheap, and theres a dozen different dash numbers for each of the parts and then there is  mods too.  Its very airframe specific and ikt works very well, but the burned transisitor on the pitch trim servo cost 900$ for the repair, 150$ for freight, and it took six weeks without an autopilot.

Overhauling it may cost several grand.

Edited by jetdriven
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we've done this too. The KFC150 isnt cheap, and theres a dozen different dash numbers for each of the parts and then there is  mods too.  Its very airframe specific and ikt works very well, but the burned transisitor on the pitch trim servo cost 900$ for the repair, 150$ for freight, and it took six weeks without an autopilot.
Overhauling it may cost several grand.

I agree with tmo, if you’re going to keep an old AP, looking for old parts should be SOP.
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