Jump to content

G3X Touch Certified


Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

So having an engine monitor that leaves the screen once I reach the cruise phase of flight, doesn't work for me and doesn't even make sense. 

If the system works, it can make perfect sense.

I know the “this is how we do it in another airplane,” argument is flimsy at best, but I’ll try to do a better job describing how this concept plays out in application on my work aircraft...while I was skeptical at first- I’ve come to love not needing to see the “needles” at all times, and do see how, at a very minimum, we as GA pilots, are “missing out” on some better data processing and handling from our engine monitors.

anyway- heres 

Displayed at all times is an icon that shows operation of the engine in some capacity that is usable to set power for what you need for the majority of flying.  In the aircraft I fly that is configured this way- that’s a thrust setting, and a digital display of fuel flow.  In a piston aircraft that could be %HP and fuel flow, and a LOP/ROP egt indicator scale.  The point being that it’s not necessarily everything that’s possible to display- just what’s needed to set power reliably and accurately for flight.  

If you tap the icon, it will display everything.  Tap it again, and you go back to the icon.  

Things that would *not need* to be displayed that could be monitored for trend data- and again, this is me spitballing- but oil pressure, oil temperature, fuel pressure, cht’s, raw egt’s.  

If any of those values starts to deviate or show “error”, a warning or caution can be triggered which will auto alert the pilot and pop that value up to the pilots attention.  The icon could change color, a sound could play.  This would certainly be at the placarded limits... but we can do better- trends can be spotted by a computer (surging, slow decay, inconsistent flows) earlier than what we see/notice as a pilot.  Even if the data is displayed up in front of us all the time.

when the icon starts to indicate issues- tap it and all engine parameters are displayed, with the suspect ones in inverse video, or colored red or yellow.  A digital error readout could also display the words or reason for the triggered caution or warning.

of its just the nesting idea that you don’t like- here’s why I brought it up:

you buy a 10” primary flight display.  Perhaps you don’t have a dedicated engine monitor in the panel- you intend to use the flight display to show your engine monitor information.  But you need to be able to navigate and fly off of the display as well.  In cruise, autopilot on- sure- display your oil pressure continuously until your hearts content- but when descending into the clouds on approach- wouldn’t the ability to replace that depiction of oil pressure with something a little more usable at the time be nice (whether that be a bigger ADI, or a navigation ribbon with waypoint or glideslope info, or whatever) not sacrificing the actual monitoring of that parameter?

ultimately, I’m stuck with what you’re stuck with- a digital engine monitor that does no processing at all- not even on a basic level.  It just shows the analog indications of my motor digitally and alerts me if they hit a placarded level.  So I HAVE to watch it all the time.

-But it could be so much more, and totally achievable right now, without extra hardware or even certification- just software mods.  For example- engine monitors could have “red box” logic (show or display where the red box is in relation to your power/egt settings), predictive best fuel flows for max range and endurance, error checking... or perhaps a display that amalgamates the egt/power values into a single “bar” or “wheel” display to more easily interpret where the engine is currently operating at a glance....the list goes on.  even if you aren’t ready to, or don’t agree with the idea of nesting the engine data- certainly you see that the engine monitors we’ve got have much room for improvement.  What we’ve got is way better than the original needles, for sure... but I think this space has been the most overlooked for improvement in GA avionics.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/2/2019 at 11:28 PM, gsxrpilot said:

All that sounds great! But until we have such systems, I'll have use the best technology available to my cockpit which is the data logging, graphical engine monitor. And even once that tech is available, I'd still like to get the raw numbers until I'm comfortable that the AI knows what it's doing. I'm a fan of AI and it's a big part of how I make my living. So I understand it takes time to build the "I" part of it.

All I was trying to point out is that between the "6-pack" instruments and full primary engine monitor such as my EDM-900, the engine monitor is much more useful during almost all phases of most flights. So having an engine monitor that leaves the screen once I reach the cruise phase of flight, doesn't work for me and doesn't even make sense. 

That technology is not that far off, the new experimental sling uses a fadec system and seeing all this garmin , beindix and true track all the shift in Avionics’s to more affordable to upgrades and installs it hopefully won’t be long before we see a certify version. I am in aviation as a career in the commercial side and the difference that a property working fadec system provides is mind blowing, can you imagen not running the risk to cook any cylinders like ever under almost any condition, having turbos last maybe twice as long as they do now because they are not over work or work more efficiently, engines last even longer with less wear and tear. You as the pilot fly the plane and engines computer will protect the engine and help alert of anything you might miss, the amount of money a system like this would safe in the long run out weight almost any charge it would cost to instal. For one I can’t wait to see a certify fadec system in not just a Mooney but in general aviation, it would become the new first upgrade before anything else, because having a nice avionics package means nothing if you unwillingly kill or damage the engine and most importantly there would no more guessing of what’s the right way or wrong way, it would all be preset by the people who know and design the engines

but that is just my 2 cents.

here is the link to the sling and how it performed over at big bear. 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, Sixstring2k said:

That technology is not that far off, the new experimental sling uses a fadec system and seeing all this garmin , beindix and true track all the shift in Avionics’s to more affordable to upgrades and installs it hopefully won’t be long before we see a certify version. I am in aviation as a career in the commercial side and the difference that a property working fadec system provides is mind blowing, can you imagen not running the risk to cook any cylinders like ever under almost any condition, having turbos last maybe twice as long as they do now because they are not over work or work more efficiently, engines last even longer with less wear and tear. You as the pilot fly the plane and engines computer will protect the engine and help alert of anything you might miss, the amount of money a system like this would safe in the long run out weight almost any charge it would cost to instal. For one I can’t wait to see a certify fadec system in not just a Mooney but in general aviation, it would become the new first upgrade before anything else, because having a nice avionics package means nothing if you unwillingly kill or damage the engine and most importantly there would no more guessing of what’s hit way or wrong way, it would all be preset by the people who know and design the engines

but that is just my 2 cents.

here is the link to the sling and how it performed over at big bear. 

 

Very interesting that you posted this!

I stayed over last night in Defuniak Springs FL for weather coming back from Sun 'n Fun and this morning this airplane landing for fuel and Wayne, the owner of this airplane, along with a guy from the  U. S. Distributor in California showed it to me. Very impressive! (https://www.airplanefactory.com/)

They flew it nonstop last Sunday from CA to FL.  https://www.airplanefactory.com/aircraft/sling-tsi-la-to-lal/

The intercooled, turbo-charged rotax 915is is very impressive . .  super smooth and when they took off the climb performance was  very impressive to say the least.

He made sure I got a brochure just in case I wanted to trade in the Mooney. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I applaud the enthusiasm, but "not that far off" in the certificated GA world is measured in scores of years. If the system in that Sling is available for my Mooney before I permanently loose my medical and have to turn in my wings, I'll eat my hat. So in the last 20 years of flying I have left, I'll make sure I know how to read the engine monitor that is available for my Mooney.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, gsxrpilot said:

I applaud the enthusiasm, but "not that far off" in the certificated GA world is measured in scores of years. If the system in that Sling is available for my Mooney before I permanently loose my medical and have to turn in my wings, I'll eat my hat. So in the last 20 years of flying I have left, I'll make sure I know how to read the engine monitor that is available for my Mooney.

Do you agree that is the last year or two speciallly you have seen a lot of movement in the avionics field since the change in certification requirements?

when did garmin put out the G3x for experimental aircraft? the earliest article I see referring to it was 2014 by avweb.

And G3x comes with engine monitoring as an option, just saying that continental or lycoming or a 3rd party might be not to far from coming up with a ga fadec first. the sensors already exist all that is missing is the computer and servos for it.

who knows is all I am saying, I have seen what commercial avaition has available and to me many of those systems and technology in avaiton is moving faster than I can remember.  I went from working 737-300 to 757 for some 20 years and then 777s in the last 10 years and was like wow that different and now if you could only see what they have done with the 787s and Airbus neo. Boeing and Airbus keep pushing for new technologies for aircrafts and I think ga might see the win fault eventually specially now with the way certification seems to be moving things faster from the experimental aviation to cerification. 

I might be asking you in 4 to 5 years how do you like your hat? well done with bbq or rare.

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dated 2010 and updated 2016.

https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/fadec-comes-of-age/#.XKq2sIwpChA

Teledyne Continental Motors (TCM) has been a major pioneer of FADEC technology, and the TCM system brings a level of simplicity to the cockpit that many pilots have never experienced. The mixture and prop controls go away, and the engine is managed by an electronic control unit (ECU). The pilot commands power with a single lever, similar to most turbine engines. TCM’s FADEC system is one of the first to be brought to a modern production aircraft.

TCM has designed and adapted a FADEC for engines from the bottom to the top of the company’s piston product line, the IO-240, IO-360 and IO-550 powerplants. (The recently introduced Cessna Skycatcher’s O-200D is excluded because it’s carbureted.) The computerized system controls every engine parameter to optimize performance and efficiency.”

”Continental estimates the cost for retrofitting a FADEC system will be between $2,500 and $7,500, depending on engine and aircraft type.”

I bet you that if Continental was thinking about doing this lycoming  is not far behind or maybe ahead. I think I am going to be cooking hat in the next 4-5 years if continental still at it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well it's now 2019. Back in 2014 there were a bunch of C 182's with FADEC controlled diesels on the ramp here in San Marcos, TX. We were told then that FADEC was just around the corner and new students didn't need to know anything about Black, Red, Blue knobs. We haven't seen then since sometime in 2015.

I'm sure it will come. And I'd be at the front of the line to upgrade. I make my living on the bleeding edge of technology and love new tech. I'm just disillusioned by an FAA still stuck in the 19th century. And add to that a very litigious legal system that could put TCM out of business just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm not holding my breath that it will happen soon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I apologize if this was covered already in one of the 200 responses, but if I don’t want to put in the Garmin autopilot and preserve my KAP150 (for now) can I put in the G3X and a G5 to drive the autopilot?  I was thinking of getting a GTX-345 but now I’m considering the GNX-375 + G3X but don’t want to spend the money for new autopilot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I apologize if this was covered already in one of the 200 responses, but if I don’t want to put in the Garmin autopilot and preserve my KAP150 (for now) can I put in the G3X and a G5 to drive the autopilot?  I was thinking of getting a GTX-345 but now I’m considering the GNX-375 + G3X but don’t want to spend the money for new autopilot.

Define “drive “. It will not provide attitude information, but heading/GPSS will work.


Tom
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Davidv said:

I apologize if this was covered already in one of the 200 responses, but if I don’t want to put in the Garmin autopilot and preserve my KAP150 (for now) can I put in the G3X and a G5 to drive the autopilot?  I was thinking of getting a GTX-345 but now I’m considering the GNX-375 + G3X but don’t want to spend the money for new autopilot.

No. Neither the G5 nor the G3X will provide attitude reference to the KFC150. And the GAD43E will not interface with the G3X. Garmin is forcing us to buy their autopilot. However if you can wait till Oshkosh I suspect Bendix King has some nice options coming. The KI300/KA310 combo will enable you to drive your KFC150 and remove your vacuum system. The KI300 has been available since January and the KA310 should be coming out by the end of this month or next at very latest. Then by Oshkosh or before the aerovue touch will hit the shelves. I suspect in later software releases the aeroview touch will provide attitude to KFC150 but not initially. 2019 is definitely Bendix King year. Before the end of the year the aerocruze 230 will be out to replace your KFC150 computer if you choose to. Where Garmin forces us to buy things we don’t want or need, BK gives us options. Good things come to those who wait patiently!

Edited by m20kmooney
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, m20kmooney said:

No. Neither the G5 nor the G3X will provide attitude reference to the KFC150. And the GAD43E will not interface with the G3X. Garmin is forcing us to buy their autopilot. However if you can wait till Oshkosh Bendix King has nice things coming. The KI300/KA310 combo will enable you to drive your KFC150 and remove your vacuum system. The KI300 has been available since January and the KA310 should be coming out by the end of this month or next at very latest. Then by Oshkosh the aerovue touch will hit the shelves. I suspect in later software releases the aeroview touch will provide attitude to KFC150 but not initially. 2019 is definitely Bendix King year. Before the end of the year the aerocruze 230 will be out to replace your KFC150 computer if you choose to.  

What is the electronics HSI solution King is planning on?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Davidv said:

I apologize if this was covered already in one of the 200 responses, but if I don’t want to put in the Garmin autopilot and preserve my KAP150 (for now) can I put in the G3X and a G5 to drive the autopilot?  I was thinking of getting a GTX-345 but now I’m considering the GNX-375 + G3X but don’t want to spend the money for new autopilot.

Not yet, at least.

As things are today, you would have to keep your KI-256, and I believe the G5 would have to be the HSI version as well, so if you wanted it for backup attitude you'd need two of them.

The G5 does not provide the required attitude feed to the autopilot. Currently, those of us with the 150 have only three options: The KI-256 the system came with, an Aspen Pro with the EA100 autopilot adapter, or the Garmin G500 (TXi or not) with the GAD 43e adapter.

Upcoming options:

1) King is working on the KI-300 which is similar to a G5 (it's actually a Sandia 340). The KI-300 is certified but the required KA-310 adapter is not.  

2) The rumor mill says that Garmin is working on a way for the G5 AI to provide attitude to legacy autopilots. This was originally supposed to be announced in the AEA/SnF timeframe, but because the G3X Touch announcement was bumped up, it's likely to be announced around Oshkosh. Since the G3X Touch and the G5 work very similarly, the G3X Touch might gain the ability to drive legacy autopilots as well.

1 hour ago, m20kmooney said:

However if you can wait till Oshkosh I suspect Bendix King has some nice options coming. The KI300/KA310 combo will enable you to drive your KFC150 and remove your vacuum system. The KI300 has been available since January and the KA310 should be coming out by the end of this month or next at very latest. Then by Oshkosh or before the aerovue touch will hit the shelves. I suspect in later software releases the aeroview touch will provide attitude to KFC150 but not initially. 2019 is definitely Bendix King year. Before the end of the year the aerocruze 230 will be out to replace your KFC150 computer if you choose to. Where Garmin forces us to buy things we don’t want or need, BK gives us options. Good things come to those who wait patiently!

Mind if I quote this on 1/1/2020? I don't buy it for a minute. The KI-300 was announced in 2015, and EVERY SINGLE YEAR at Oshkosh we were told it was shipping in "Q4". In fact, in 2017, I cynically asked, "which year?" and the guy initially replied "2018!" before quickly retracting that, but it turns out he was right. Now, they finally have that certified but the required KA-310 still isn't... And as late as mid-November they said it would be done in Q1. Well, Q1 is gone... So maybe Q1 of next year? I'll be sure to ask which year when I see them at Oshkosh again.

Right now, Dynon is the one that's pushing Garmin forward, Aspen is hanging on for dear life, and BK is the hare that has already been beaten by the tortoise but doesn't seem to know it yet. BK has nothing new in their bag of tricks, most everything they've done or announced is just a rebranded box from someone else.

You were right about the G3X Touch... But if BK actually has the KA310, the AeroVue Touch, AND the AeroCruze 230 all shipping and installable by the end of this year, I'm going to start asking you for Powerball numbers.

  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, flyingcheesehead said:

Not yet, at least.

As things are today, you would have to keep your KI-256, and I believe the G5 would have to be the HSI version as well, so if you wanted it for backup attitude you'd need two of them.

The G5 does not provide the required attitude feed to the autopilot. Currently, those of us with the 150 have only three options: The KI-256 the system came with, an Aspen Pro with the EA100 autopilot adapter, or the Garmin G500 (TXi or not) with the GAD 43e adapter.

Upcoming options:

1) King is working on the KI-300 which is similar to a G5 (it's actually a Sandia 340). The KI-300 is certified but the required KA-310 adapter is not.  

2) The rumor mill says that Garmin is working on a way for the G5 AI to provide attitude to legacy autopilots. This was originally supposed to be announced in the AEA/SnF timeframe, but because the G3X Touch announcement was bumped up, it's likely to be announced around Oshkosh. Since the G3X Touch and the G5 work very similarly, the G3X Touch might gain the ability to drive legacy autopilots as well.

Mind if I quote this on 1/1/2020? I don't buy it for a minute. The KI-300 was announced in 2015, and EVERY SINGLE YEAR at Oshkosh we were told it was shipping in "Q4". In fact, in 2017, I cynically asked, "which year?" and the guy initially replied "2018!" before quickly retracting that, but it turns out he was right. Now, they finally have that certified but the required KA-310 still isn't... And as late as mid-November they said it would be done in Q1. Well, Q1 is gone... So maybe Q1 of next year? I'll be sure to ask which year when I see them at Oshkosh again.

Right now, Dynon is the one that's pushing Garmin forward, Aspen is hanging on for dear life, and BK is the hare that has already been beaten by the tortoise but doesn't seem to know it yet. BK has nothing new in their bag of tricks, most everything they've done or announced is just a rebranded box from someone else.

You were right about the G3X Touch... But if BK actually has the KA310, the AeroVue Touch, AND the AeroCruze 230 all shipping and installable by the end of this year, I'm going to start asking you for Powerball numbers.

Thanks, very helpful info.  I’m still leaning towards getting the GNX-375 to replace my KLN-94 and get ADS-B in/out while I wait for a good PFD/MFD solution to replace my Sandell and Vaccum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, flyingcheesehead said:

You were right about the G3X Touch... But if BK actually has the KA310, the AeroVue Touch, AND the AeroCruze 230 all shipping and installable by the end of this year, I'm going to start asking you for Powerball numbers.

Cut me a break! Let’s take these one at a time! KA310, Aerocruze 230, Aerovue touch, in that order. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've enjoyed reading this thread, and the GFC 500 thread.  Quick comment about Dynon, because I was closely following the HDX AML and hoping to install their system in my A36, removing steam gauges and the museum piece called the STEC 60-2.

The Dynon STC for Bonanzas increased from $2500 -> $4000 right before the G3X certified announcement .... bad timing.

The Dynon STC for the V35B is STILL not complete, and the A36 timing could be many months away.

The *initial* STC doesn't allow the Dynon AP to control electric trim!  They plan to add it, but when?

The Dynon setup requires use of an *existing* electric trim system.  You cannot add a trim servo from Dynon, unlike the GFC 500.

I ran the numbers, and the equipment cost comparison puts Dynon at about a $1500 price advantage over Garmin.  Frankly, that's not enough of a price break.  I assume install prices will be similar.

*IF* Dynon did these things, I believe they still have a market:

1.  Drop the STC price to $500 or zero.

2.  Get the stupid FAA approvals done!

3.  Provide for auto-trim control.

4.  Develop a pitch trim servo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.