G3X Touch Certified

[aviatoreb]

8 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

1 is aileron

2 pitch

3 pitch trim

4 yaw damper

 

Price reference: https://secure.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=161609&view=unread#unread

Yaw damper!  Cool!  Who would want that?

[flyingcheesehead]

On 3/26/2019 at 8:09 AM, Marauder said:

So, to jetdriven's point, why is the certified version 3X more expensive than the experimental? If they had to certify over 500 models through flight testing and all the associated paperwork (like they did to certify the G500 AP in aircraft), I could get the extra cost. Unless there was a major certification process, why are the certified version that much more expensive?

Because all that paperwork (certification) costs money. Garmin incorporates the cost into the equipment, Dynon just adds a $4K charge on top of the equipment. 

And, it's not like they just took the experimental version, dropped it in a certified plane, and called it good. The software is different for sure, and it's surely tested more extensively. That isn't free.

And, there's probably some "because they can" in there too... But Garmin is a business, not a charity, and they have stockholders to answer to. We're lucky that they do anything for GA at all, because they've got some awfully nice margins and much higher-revenue divisions. From a purely bean-counting perspective, an executive might look at the GA market and say "why are we doing this at all?" I'm glad they continue to be a player, and to make great products.

On 3/26/2019 at 11:43 AM, gsxrpilot said:

Well the big question in advance of this announcement was why would Garmin release the G3X and step all over their TXi business. And now we know... the G3X, while a nice unit, is certainly the base model without all the niceties of the TXi.

There's not a whole lot missing from the TXi, though. Here's the differences:

The following things are present on the TXi that are not on the G3X Touch:

• Twin engine support

• Pilot/Copilot PFD installations

• HSI map

• More modern hardware and a nicer screen - Display technology is rapidly evolving, and the G3X Touch is already 5 years old.

• Additional third-party I/O. They showed only the GAD 29B as an option here, not the GAD 43e, so the interfacing options of the G3X Touch are similar to the G5 rather than similar to the TXi.

• Database Concierge

• Remote audio panel support

• Non-Garmin attitude-based autopilot support

• 3rd-party Nav radio support on the on-screen HSI.

• Airborne weather radar support (not datalink, but actual radar like the BendixKing RDR-2000 and Garmin GWX series)

• Support for the GDL 69A, GDL 88, and GSR 56 datalinks

• Many more display configurations - Only four are certified on the G3X Touch, while something like 28 are certified on the TXi.

 

On 3/26/2019 at 12:10 PM, toto said:

Interesting that Kevin decided to go with two G5's and then the STEC.

He has a twin - A 310Q. Garmin has the 310R on the "to do" list for the GFC600 (which is expen$ive), and doesn't have earlier 310's on any list. So, Garmin isn't even an option at this point. S-TEC has the 3100 certified for the 310 D through R models already.

On 3/26/2019 at 5:34 PM, gsxrpilot said:

I asked this question specifically and was told "No" for IFR flight the G5 or some other backup other than the 2nd 7" G3X is required.

Even the dual-display G3X setups have only a single AHRS, so it makes sense that you would need another backup.

On 3/26/2019 at 6:11 PM, Cruiser said:

With all the recent talk about familiarity of equipment operation and understand of how to interact with each. Why would anyone want to equip a plane with a backup system that is operationally different than the primary?

i.e. the G3x requires a G5 for backup? How confusing. In an emergency I not only have to manage the failures I need to completely change my interaction with the equipment that is suppose to keep me safe?

Sounds dangerous.

Three things:

1) The G5 is not required - You could leave in some steam gauges for backup, for example. 

2) The G3X + G5 combo is one of the safest we've ever had in GA: Dual AHRS with miscompare alerting. The G5 and G3X monitor each other, and if one fails in a manner where it keeps providing an indication that may not be correct, the other one can catch it and alert you. This is WAY better than having a simple steam backup, or a 3rd-party backup, because you the pilot don't have to actually notice that it's happening - You'll get alerted. And if you have the GFC 500, it gets even better: The autopilot will stay on and fully operational in the event either unit fails. Even the TXi can't do that - The TXi doesn't have CANbus, so it can't talk directly to the GFC 500, it requires the G5 to control the GFC, and sends all of its commands via the G5. The experimental G3X was what drove the first version of the experimental precursor to the GFC 500, and both the G5 and G3X are fully integrated parts of the GFC500 system. If either display (or AHRS) goes dead, you'll just keep motoring on on autopilot, without the need to even push a button, and the autopilot will remain fully operational and controlled from the remaining screen.

3) The G5 and G3X aren't massively different in terms of their user interfaces. They're both made by Garmin, and Garmin has a pretty consistent UI design philosophy. Sure, it would be worth practicing on both units so that you're completely comfortable if and when one of them bites it, but it's far better than, for example, having to revert from a G500 to a Mid-Continent backup.

On 3/26/2019 at 6:16 PM, toto said:

I was very curious about this, and afaict the screen dimensions and resolution are identical. But I dunno whether the TXi uses newer/better technology.

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/682215/pn/G3X-TCERT-01#specs

 

txi-onesheet.pdf 398.7 kB · 4 downloads

They flat-out said it on the call: Display technology is moving rapidly these days (thanks to smartphones, tablets, TVs, etc) and the G3X is already 5 years old, since it came out for experimentals quite a while ago and is just being brought to the certified market right now, whereas the TXi is brand new.

I'm looking forward to seeing both displays again at Oshkosh, and paying more attention to the differences. I'm sure the TXi is nicer, but it's probably not $6,000 nicer. That difference will allow us to replace our last King radio with a GNC 255.

On 3/26/2019 at 8:34 PM, Bryan said:

I have been on the phone with my avionics guy several times today and yesterday since the announcement. This single item is preventing me from changing my order (with a week to go) on a TXi install. It is very hard for me to spend big money to rip out and install a new autopilot just to save like $5-$6,000 on the screen. Now if my KFC 150 was not working or been less than stellar since acquisition (knocking wood) I might reconsider. GFC will also talk digitally to the TXi and will always in the future.

If they added GAD43e support, my direction would be different.

Well, my KFC has been WAY less than stellar. In the nearly 7 years I've had the airplane, it finally became reliable only about a year and a half ago. I've put more into keeping it running these past 7 years than the entire cost of a GFC 500, and Honeywell quoted us $9600 for a USED, OVERHAUL EXCHANGE trim servo! Luckily, our shop was able to bring ours back from the dead, but the writing is on the wall. If the KFC has *any* further failures, it's getting ripped out. It's just too damn expensive to keep it going when something like the GFC500 exists.

Also, I've been looking at putting in a TXi (until this most recent announcement) and I could get away without the cost of the GAD 43e, among other things, if I got the GFC 500, so that makes yanking the KFC a more attractive option than it would otherwise be. Given the reliability of the GFC when combined with the G3X Touch + G5 (as noted above), we're likely going to go with G3X+G5+GFC500. If we were to keep the KFC, we would need to get the TXi instead of the G3X, and we would need the GAD 43e on top of that. That's a $10,000 difference just to keep the KFC running, which is enough to pay for the GFC500 (sans installation).

On 3/27/2019 at 7:11 AM, Bryan said:

I have a buddy with a C172 with an old Apollo GPS and narco transponder. The GNX175 is perfect for him. He gets ADSB In/Out, IFR WAAS Moving Map GPS, and a flight streaming to his iPad.  Also, if he installs a CDI he can do instrument training or even fly LPV IFR.

Good move Garmin. Any VFR pilot that does not have ADSB yet but with decent COMMs should seriously look at this.

Clarification: The GNX 375 will give him all that stuff. The GPS 175 does not have the ADS-B transponder. There is no GNX 175. But you are correct, for anyone - Even IFR - who has a less expensive plane and/or good Nav/Com radios and/or an old non-WAAS GPS (especially a KLN or GX series, which is the same size as the GNX 375), the GNX 375 is really a great addition in capability for a pretty reasonable price. 

22 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Doesn’t the dual screen setup work off one GSU 25 ADHRS though?  So the screens back each other up if a screen fails, but you could still be on the G5 real quick if the AHRS were to fail?  I may be misreading that though...

Correct. Dual screens, single AHRS. If a screen fails, you're OK and get reversionary mode. If the AHRS fails... Well, that's why you need something else as a backup. The miscompare monitoring between the G3X and G5 makes that a pretty compelling combo, though.

15 hours ago, MIm20c said:

If anything I feel like the 430w is as important as ever. A single “inexpensive” 10 inch g3x will provide access to a large vibrant mfd display, two way communication between 430 and EFB, bargain priced access to XM/adsb weather and traffic. The 430w staples the system down with LPV approaches, top quality nav/com, and a durable design that has stood the test of time. 

G3x/430w/330es/50r - IMO a powerful combo for another 20 years. 

 

I *highly* doubt that Garmin will support the 430 for another 20 years. It's already 20 years old, and that's already the longest they've ever supported any of their aviation units. The 480 is newer and now unsupported, and everything older than the 430 is even losing database support now. 

If I had a plane with a 430W in it already, I wouldn't tear it out, but I would probably put it as the #2 behind a GTN. But, I sure wouldn't be paying to freshly install one at this point.

[flyingcheesehead]

34 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Yaw damper!  Cool!  Who would want that?

Beech drivers.

They're happy airplanes, that's why they wag their tails...

[johncuyle]

13 minutes ago, flyingcheesehead said:

Beech drivers.

They're happy airplanes, that's why they wag their tails...

People who fly with weak-stomached passengers.  The Mooney is nowhere near as bad as a Beech, but it does wag some under certain circumstances.  For a pilot it is mildly irritating if you even notice.  For some passengers it's a big deal.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, flyingcheesehead said:

Beech drivers.

They're happy airplanes, that's why they wag their tails...

...I forgot the contraction.  I meant to say who WOULDN't want that!

Is it available for Mooney's?  We don't waggle like a beech v-tail but any stabilization is always helpful when carrying timid not-pilots.

[pwnel]

On 3/26/2019 at 6:46 PM, gsxrpilot said:

• Backup instruments are required regardless of one or two screens installed. This backup can be the G5, but regardless, a backup is required.
• No legacy autopilot support for anything other than heading bug. Fully coupled approaches will require the GFC500.
• No Navigator support other than Garmin.
• No Audio panel support other than Garmin.
• No Transponder support other than Garmin.
• Certain nice Garmin features like Database Concierge, and a few other features, not supported on the G3X.
• The hardware/video is legacy quality. "If you want the new modern video resolution, buy the TXi"

Just like the GFC500 is a great new autopilot, but it's not quite the GFC600 level. The G3X is nice, but it's not TXi level and not meant to compete.

I believe the Aspen competes very well with the top of the line TXi in everything except the large screen. And as @Cruiser said, to my eye, a lot of that screen is wasted real estate. If I was going G3X, I'd prefer two 7" screens anyway. To my eye, they're a better use of space. With two Aspen screens I have full revision and redundancy. With two G3X screens you have two screens. But you still require a third screen that is only used if something fails. With the Aspen, the MFD is my backup. If the PFD fails, the MFD becomes the PFD. And in an emergency situation, I don't need an MFD, I can certainly use an iPad for that, or my panel mounted GPS is also effectively an MFD. 

I've never like the idea of instruments in my panel that are ONLY there incase of a failure. I'd like them all do have a useful function.

Anyway, just my $0.02. I've had a full helping of crow as well, and was about to call the avionics shop and cancel my Aspen MFD order. But after sitting through the webinar, and reading everything Trek posted on BeechTalk, I'm very comfortable with my decision to move forward with the Aspens. 

In a few years some of these folks who are now going to install full G3X systems with GFC500 are going to sell and never recoup their investment.  And I'm going to have myself a bargain :-)

@gsxrpilot put me at ease also with this analysis.  I bought the 231 with an existing NGT9000+. I'm about to swop out my 430W for an IFD440 for under $5000. My Century 2000 is rock solid and my KX155 too.  With the addition of an Aspen PFD Max ($10k) and a PMA450B I'll have a great setup at a fraction of a full G3X+GFC500 install. The rest of the money goes towards actual flying experiences. Those cottages at Staniel Cay aren't cheap.

Edited March 28, 2019 by pwnel

[toto]

2 hours ago, flyingcheesehead said:

He has a twin - A 310Q. Garmin has the 310R on the "to do" list for the GFC600 (which is expen$ive), and doesn't have earlier 310's on any list. So, Garmin isn't even an option at this point. S-TEC has the 3100 certified for the 310 D through R models already.

Sorry, I actually meant to ask the opposite question.. Since there's no Garmin AP, why go Garmin for the AI and HSI? Why not do the 3100 with an Aspen or something?

I follow him on YouTube and I know that he's done this piecemeal. But his AP was broken before the AI went out, so he was going to do an AP sooner or later. 

[toto]

2 hours ago, Niko182 said:

The gfc500 is consoderably less than 30k. Ive checked beechtalk, and people had a 4 servo setup with 2 g5's installed for 23k. Ive gotten qouted 40 hours for a 3 servo setup and 50 for a 4 servo setup. Just because one person made a post of getting expensive qoutes on here doesnt mean those qoutes are accurate to what normal shops would charge.

Personal experience with a GFC500+2xG5 install was less than 30, but not considerably less, for three servos. 

[toto]

18 hours ago, MIm20c said:

G3x/430w/330es/50r - IMO a powerful combo for another 20 years. 

It sort of feels like Garmin is on a 2-by-10 upgrade path, where they introduce a new thing, ten years later they offer a major update, and ten years after that they replace it with a brand-new thing that's a different form factor and requires a complicated install. 

I bought a 430 way back in the day, and then paid like $2k several years later for the WAAS upgrade. That upgrade iirc included a new processor and a much higher refresh rate. It was almost like a brand-new radio. But the install cost was essentially zero. 

They finally dropped support for the 430 about 20 years after it was introduced, and six or seven years after the GTN series was available. 

I'm not familiar enough with the G500/G600 setup to know whether the TXi upgrade was similar to the 430. But I'm definitely curious whether we should expect the next G3X upgrade to be like the 430->430W, or whether the G3X->Touch upgrade was the "easy" one, to be followed by a "hard" G4X upgrade six or seven years from now. 

Anyone have a crystal ball?

[Niko182]

1 hour ago, pwnel said:

In a few years some of these folks who are now going to install full G3X systems with GFC500 are going to sell and never recoup their investment.  And I'm going to have myself a bargain :-)

@gsxrpilot put me at ease also with this analysis.  I bought the 231 with an existing NGT9000+. I'm about to swop out my 430W for an IFD440 for under $5000. My Century 2000 is rock solid and my KX155 too.  With the addition of an Aspen PFD Max ($10k) and a PMA450B I'll have a great setup at a fraction of a full G3X+GFC500 install. The rest of the money goes towards actual flying experiences. Those cottages at Staniel Cay aren't cheap.

the difference between your aircraft and other peoples aircraft are that the instruments you have in your aircraft work. a lot of users on here that have king equipment can't upgrade them cheaply like you can. A kfc150 can't be upgraded easily, nor fixed affordably. the GFC500 allows an affordable upgrade. the basic version can be installed for 14 to 16 thousand if you already have a g5, which a lot of people do. A good example was listed above; $9600 for a used trim servo is absurd. the king KLN94 i have needs a 600 dollar card in order to be updated. I have spent hours trying to update it, and I simply can't. I'm not going to spend 500 dollars for a card 100 for an update, and another 6000 for a garmin 345 when I can spend somewhere around an extra 3 grand to get LPV approaches, easy updates, a user friendly GPS, with brand new warranty ADS-B. and I can sell the KLN94 and my KT76C, get my 500 dollar rebate, and in the end I get $1800 back.

What I'm spending vs what I'm getting back in this case I think is equal. for the first time in a while, avionics are starting to get cheaper, so the money I'm putting in the aircraft, I'm starting to get back.

from Pireps, the GFC500 and the GFC600 are looking to be the best A/P's available. your century 2000 might work well, but it's no GFC series autopilot.

[carusoam]

4 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Yaw damper!  Cool!  Who would want that?

1) V tail captain...

2) Short Body captain...

3) M20K Captain in the FLs...

4) C172 captain that never climbs high enough to get out of the bumps...

what these three caprains have in common... the distance of the vertical tale from the Cg, and its tail’s effectiveness...

• V... missing the vertical part... vector geometry is needed to find it...
• C... short distance Cg to tail...
• K... super thin air density at 20+k’

An active yaw dampening device can’t stop the yaw caused by bumps... but it can attenuate the oscillation... helps the people that are sensitive to sea sickness... but doesn’t cure the bumps... so they are now comfortable with flights of 15 minutes instead of 10...

BK’s KFC and KAP APs have YD capability... some of us even have the rudder trim to go with that... nobody at Mooney decided to use the YD... even if the hardware was already installed...

So... If you want good natural YD... go NA LB! Hang out low, without any O2 requirements... Go O!  

Best regards,

-a-

[Jetlag]

4 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

What is the 4th servo doing? 1 and 2 are aileron's and 3rd is trim- is that right?  What is the 4th for?

1 for roll, 1 for pitch, 1 for trim, and 1 for yaw damper on the GFC 500.

[flyingcheesehead]

2 hours ago, toto said:

Sorry, I actually meant to ask the opposite question.. Since there's no Garmin AP, why go Garmin for the AI and HSI? Why not do the 3100 with an Aspen or something?

I follow him on YouTube and I know that he's done this piecemeal. But his AP was broken before the AI went out, so he was going to do an AP sooner or later. 

Well, S-TEC doesn't make an AI, for one.

I don't remember the timeframe, I think he may have had the first G5 before the Aspen E5 came out, making it by far the cheapest option for where he was at that moment. I guess he liked it, so he got the second G5.  

10 minutes ago, carusoam said:

what these three caprains have in common... the distance of the vertical tale from the Cg, and its tail’s effectiveness...

Hey honey! I may be fat, but I saved us two grand on the yaw damper!

[Cruiser]

2 hours ago, toto said:

Personal experience with a GFC500+2xG5 install was less than 30, but not considerably less, for three servos. 

we had a local Cessna just finishing up on a GFC500+2xG5 for mid $20s, install shop says never again. They lost their A$$ on it .

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, Cruiser said:

we had a local Cessna just finishing up on a GFC500+2xG5 for mid $20s, install shop says never again. They lost their A$$ on it .

Sounds like reality is starting to happen. Maybe those Don Kaye quotes are legit. Probably will lead to an increase of this when owners start seeing the quotes.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Marauder

[toto]

1 hour ago, Cruiser said:

we had a local Cessna just finishing up on a GFC500+2xG5 for mid $20s, install shop says never again. They lost their A$$ on it .

It took an insane amount of time to install the servo mounts. My shop went back and forth with Garmin for weeks. It definitely seemed like a learning experience on both ends.

[flyingcheesehead]

21 minutes ago, toto said:

It took an insane amount of time to install the servo mounts. My shop went back and forth with Garmin for weeks. It definitely seemed like a learning experience on both ends.

GA aircraft aren't mass produced on an assembly line, so there can be a lot of variation between them. That's why, for a while, Garmin had specific serial number ranges of Bonanzas, for instance, that were "de-certified" and had to be re-done. They discovered something after it was in the wild that made that particular range different.

[carusoam]

One doesn’t need an assembly line to follow Good Manufacturing Practice... (GMP)

Things like design, documentation, drawing control, serialization, part numbers, change control, and QC inspection... work really well...

see Edward Deming for some simple guidance coming out of the 1940s...

Automotive companies were just getting deep into total quality management in the 80s and 90s... Ford would advertise their Q1 program... at Ford, Quality is Job 1...

If you think all of this costs a ton o dough...

Try building machines without out it... 

Quality Engineering isn’t very fun... there is some creativity required... just not a lot... stay on the magenta line!

Best regards,

-a-

[pwnel]

10 hours ago, Niko182 said:

the difference between your aircraft and other peoples aircraft are that the instruments you have in your aircraft work. a lot of users on here that have king equipment can't upgrade them cheaply like you can. A kfc150 can't be upgraded easily, nor fixed affordably. the GFC500 allows an affordable upgrade. the basic version can be installed for 14 to 16 thousand if you already have a g5, which a lot of people do. A good example was listed above; $9600 for a used trim servo is absurd. the king KLN94 i have needs a 600 dollar card in order to be updated. I have spent hours trying to update it, and I simply can't. I'm not going to spend 500 dollars for a card 100 for an update, and another 6000 for a garmin 345 when I can spend somewhere around an extra 3 grand to get LPV approaches, easy updates, a user friendly GPS, with brand new warranty ADS-B. and I can sell the KLN94 and my KT76C, get my 500 dollar rebate, and in the end I get $1800 back.

What I'm spending vs what I'm getting back in this case I think is equal. for the first time in a while, avionics are starting to get cheaper, so the money I'm putting in the aircraft, I'm starting to get back.

from Pireps, the GFC500 and the GFC600 are looking to be the best A/P's available. your century 2000 might work well, but it's no GFC series autopilot.

Good points.  The corollary to this is that King equipped Mooneys should trade at a substantial discount to take an expensive upgrade into account.

There's exactly such an example at AAA right now - all King 231 - low time engine - low time prop.  In this case it makes sense to fork out $50k for a completely new panel. 

Edited March 29, 2019 by pwnel

[Davidv]

11 hours ago, Niko182 said:

the difference between your aircraft and other peoples aircraft are that the instruments you have in your aircraft work. a lot of users on here that have king equipment can't upgrade them cheaply like you can. A kfc150 can't be upgraded easily, nor fixed affordably. the GFC500 allows an affordable upgrade. the basic version can be installed for 14 to 16 thousand if you already have a g5, which a lot of people do. A good example was listed above; $9600 for a used trim servo is absurd. the king KLN94 i have needs a 600 dollar card in order to be updated. I have spent hours trying to update it, and I simply can't. I'm not going to spend 500 dollars for a card 100 for an update, and another 6000 for a garmin 345 when I can spend somewhere around an extra 3 grand to get LPV approaches, easy updates, a user friendly GPS, with brand new warranty ADS-B. and I can sell the KLN94 and my KT76C, get my 500 dollar rebate, and in the end I get $1800 back.

What I'm spending vs what I'm getting back in this case I think is equal. for the first time in a while, avionics are starting to get cheaper, so the money I'm putting in the aircraft, I'm starting to get back.

from Pireps, the GFC500 and the GFC600 are looking to be the best A/P's available. your century 2000 might work well, but it's no GFC series autopilot.

I’m not sure about the G3X but I’m with you on the GPS/ADS-B for $8K.  I was about to buy the 345 but with my KLN 94 I don’t see the point.  While I know a 750 is also very capable (and has comms), I don’t feel like shelling out $20K for it...

Side note: like you, I was going to update the KLN 94 via data download but found that I didn’t have the right software update.  I called Honeywell and they overnighted me a card for free AND let me keep my future downloads. I realize these may be worthless but I was pretty impressed with their customer service.

[MIm20c]

G3x has some pretty attractive pricing...about a $3k price increase from the experimental and 500 aircraft certified out of the gate. I’ll call it Garmin’s gateway drug. 

Edited March 29, 2019 by MIm20c

[Andy95W]

@MIm20c- where did you see this add?  I haven't seen the $4295 price for the GPS 175 before.

[MIm20c]

19 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

@MIm20c- where did you see this add?  I haven't seen the $4295 price for the GPS 175 before.

I pull all the prices from Sarasota. Over the years I’ve found the prices to line up well with competitive bids in the area. However, the 175 and 375 are available over the counter I believe. 

[johncuyle]

8 hours ago, pwnel said:

Good points.  The corollary to this is that King equipped Mooneys should trade at a substantial discount to take an expensive upgrade into account.

There's exactly such an example at AAA right now - all King 231 - low time engine - low time prop.  In this case it makes sense to fork out $50k for a completely new panel. 

OT:  Huh.  Nice plane.  Reminds me of mine when I bought it but with a worse interior.  The MT prop plus intercooler make it good value for money for someone who wants to redo the panel and interior.  Wonder if the prop just didn't get overhauled with the engine, finally had an issue, and the owner decided to replace or there was a prop strike.  (I always wonder that when I see something like that, though it could be benign.  If I could find someone who wanted a low time McCauley hot prop I'd pull mine, upgrade to the MT, and have almost identical numbers.) What's up with the duct for the intercooler, though?  That doesn't look like the one included with the turboplus and I wouldn't expect field modifications to the STC to be super easy to certify.  I also don't understand why you'd do that.

[khedrei]

22 hours ago, flyingcheesehead said:

Because all that paperwork (certification) costs money. Garmin incorporates the cost into the equipment, Dynon just adds a $4K charge on top of the equipment. 

And, it's not like they just took the experimental version, dropped it in a certified plane, and called it good. The software is different for sure, and it's surely tested more extensively. That isn't free.

And, there's probably some "because they can" in there too... But Garmin is a business, not a charity, and they have stockholders to answer to. We're lucky that they do anything for GA at all, because they've got some awfully nice margins and much higher-revenue divisions. From a purely bean-counting perspective, an executive might look at the GA market and say "why are we doing this at all?" I'm glad they continue to be a player, and to make great products.

There's not a whole lot missing from the TXi, though. Here's the differences:

The following things are present on the TXi that are not on the G3X Touch:

• Twin engine support

• Pilot/Copilot PFD installations

• HSI map

• More modern hardware and a nicer screen - Display technology is rapidly evolving, and the G3X Touch is already 5 years old.

• Additional third-party I/O. They showed only the GAD 29B as an option here, not the GAD 43e, so the interfacing options of the G3X Touch are similar to the G5 rather than similar to the TXi.

• Database Concierge

• Remote audio panel support

• Non-Garmin attitude-based autopilot support

• 3rd-party Nav radio support on the on-screen HSI.

• Airborne weather radar support (not datalink, but actual radar like the BendixKing RDR-2000 and Garmin GWX series)

• Support for the GDL 69A, GDL 88, and GSR 56 datalinks

• Many more display configurations - Only four are certified on the G3X Touch, while something like 28 are certified on the TXi.

 

He has a twin - A 310Q. Garmin has the 310R on the "to do" list for the GFC600 (which is expen$ive), and doesn't have earlier 310's on any list. So, Garmin isn't even an option at this point. S-TEC has the 3100 certified for the 310 D through R models already.

Even the dual-display G3X setups have only a single AHRS, so it makes sense that you would need another backup.

Three things:

1) The G5 is not required - You could leave in some steam gauges for backup, for example. 

2) The G3X + G5 combo is one of the safest we've ever had in GA: Dual AHRS with miscompare alerting. The G5 and G3X monitor each other, and if one fails in a manner where it keeps providing an indication that may not be correct, the other one can catch it and alert you. This is WAY better than having a simple steam backup, or a 3rd-party backup, because you the pilot don't have to actually notice that it's happening - You'll get alerted. And if you have the GFC 500, it gets even better: The autopilot will stay on and fully operational in the event either unit fails. Even the TXi can't do that - The TXi doesn't have CANbus, so it can't talk directly to the GFC 500, it requires the G5 to control the GFC, and sends all of its commands via the G5. The experimental G3X was what drove the first version of the experimental precursor to the GFC 500, and both the G5 and G3X are fully integrated parts of the GFC500 system. If either display (or AHRS) goes dead, you'll just keep motoring on on autopilot, without the need to even push a button, and the autopilot will remain fully operational and controlled from the remaining screen.

3) The G5 and G3X aren't massively different in terms of their user interfaces. They're both made by Garmin, and Garmin has a pretty consistent UI design philosophy. Sure, it would be worth practicing on both units so that you're completely comfortable if and when one of them bites it, but it's far better than, for example, having to revert from a G500 to a Mid-Continent backup.

They flat-out said it on the call: Display technology is moving rapidly these days (thanks to smartphones, tablets, TVs, etc) and the G3X is already 5 years old, since it came out for experimentals quite a while ago and is just being brought to the certified market right now, whereas the TXi is brand new.

I'm looking forward to seeing both displays again at Oshkosh, and paying more attention to the differences. I'm sure the TXi is nicer, but it's probably not $6,000 nicer. That difference will allow us to replace our last King radio with a GNC 255.

Well, my KFC has been WAY less than stellar. In the nearly 7 years I've had the airplane, it finally became reliable only about a year and a half ago. I've put more into keeping it running these past 7 years than the entire cost of a GFC 500, and Honeywell quoted us $9600 for a USED, OVERHAUL EXCHANGE trim servo! Luckily, our shop was able to bring ours back from the dead, but the writing is on the wall. If the KFC has *any* further failures, it's getting ripped out. It's just too damn expensive to keep it going when something like the GFC500 exists.

Also, I've been looking at putting in a TXi (until this most recent announcement) and I could get away without the cost of the GAD 43e, among other things, if I got the GFC 500, so that makes yanking the KFC a more attractive option than it would otherwise be. Given the reliability of the GFC when combined with the G3X Touch + G5 (as noted above), we're likely going to go with G3X+G5+GFC500. If we were to keep the KFC, we would need to get the TXi instead of the G3X, and we would need the GAD 43e on top of that. That's a $10,000 difference just to keep the KFC running, which is enough to pay for the GFC500 (sans installation).

Clarification: The GNX 375 will give him all that stuff. The GPS 175 does not have the ADS-B transponder. There is no GNX 175. But you are correct, for anyone - Even IFR - who has a less expensive plane and/or good Nav/Com radios and/or an old non-WAAS GPS (especially a KLN or GX series, which is the same size as the GNX 375), the GNX 375 is really a great addition in capability for a pretty reasonable price. 

Correct. Dual screens, single AHRS. If a screen fails, you're OK and get reversionary mode. If the AHRS fails... Well, that's why you need something else as a backup. The miscompare monitoring between the G3X and G5 makes that a pretty compelling combo, though.

 

I *highly* doubt that Garmin will support the 430 for another 20 years. It's already 20 years old, and that's already the longest they've ever supported any of their aviation units. The 480 is newer and now unsupported, and everything older than the 430 is even losing database support now. 

If I had a plane with a 430W in it already, I wouldn't tear it out, but I would probably put it as the #2 behind a GTN. But, I sure wouldn't be paying to freshly install one at this point.

So I have a question in response to the benefits of the TXi vs the G3X. I am having trouble with my decision on where I might want to go with my upgrade this fall and since I have no experience with either, and you seem to know what you are talking about. You listed the features/benefits that the TXI has over the G3X. Are there any features that the G3X has that the TXI doesnt. Or things that it does better? It will drive the auto pilot for one. Anything else that would be a one up on the TXI besides the lower price?