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Mooney M20M GX Bravo Prebuy - LPC Aviation


JJV7109

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I'm looking to make my first aircraft purchase.  I was originally in the market for a M20R Ovation.  However, it seems every M20R on Controller and other sites that fit my budget are always under contract when I contact the seller.  If I did find a M20R most likely I would be upgrading to the Ovation 3 STC and want to upgrade the avionics. That puts me at the asking price of a 2005 M20M GX Bravo with low hours for sale.  It's outside my budget slightly but since it already has a G1000 and STEC 55X I wouldn't need to upgrade any of the avionics.  I may want to upgrade to the STEC 3100 down the road to try to match the performance of a GFC700. It has a fresh annual but of course I'll need to do a pre-buy.  My plan was to use Don Maxwell in Texas but since this plane is in Florida I am now looking at LPC Aviation (Listed on Mooney Support as a MSC) in Punta Gorda.  Does anyone have experience with LPC? 

I read many threads on the forums regarding the M20M Bravo.  I know many say go with Ovation and many are fans of the Bravo. I understand I'm looking at more expensive overhauls when the time comes and slightly increased fuel consumption.  It doesn't have TKS which I'm surprised for a turbo. The only thing I may do to it is get an Artic Air True AC since it's uncomfortably hot on the ground in Arkansas. You're usually soaking wet in the Summer months by the time you make it to a cooler altitude.

So I'm looking for anyone with experience at LPC and I guess if there is any reason why I should cross Bravos off my list.

 

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1 hour ago, lamont337 said:

Is the G1000 WAAS? If not I thought I heard those parts for upgrade are hard to come by but could be wrong. $$$

Exactly!! @JJV7109, this is the first thing you should check on your pre-buy before you open up one inspection panel on the airplane.

Garmin doesn't make any new GIA-63W units to upgrade the G1000 to WAAS. It's very likely that if this airplane is not already upgraded you will not ever be able to fly WAAS approaches. It's easy to say well I'll just fly ILS approaches. This one thing will determine whether you will ever be able to sell it in the future. All other squawks that you find in a pre-buy on the Bravo can at least be addressed. Right now if it's not already WAAS this would be a major problem for the seller, don't let it become your problem. Don't let the beautiful paint or the huge G1000 screens cloud your judgment. The G1000 is part of the equipment list on this airplane - you can't just put a new panel in with other avionics.

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The listing for the plane doesn’t mention WAAS or ADS-B compliance, both are issues.  Better to look at a slightly older airframe with more ways to comply or better that are already completed.

Clarence

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The Bravo vs. O...

This is a simple paper comparison...

One is maximum speed if O2 masks are OK...

The Other is a blend of speed and efficiency...

The third, Eagle is more efficiency and less speed...

I went with the speed and efficiency at first... then added 310hp of extra climb performance...

Any of these planes is a lot of machine for first time ownership... plan your training accordingly... :)

Welcome aboard JJ, Enjoy the hunt...

Best regards,

-a-

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I'm working on clarification with the seller, but I highly suspect it's non-WAAS.  I appreciate all the advice and will 100% be avoiding a non-WAAS G1000. I was really looking for somewhere around a 2000 Ovation 2 or Ovation 3 that wouldn't need an overhaul anytime soon.  I figure if the price is right I can always upgrade with Aspens or even G500TXI.  I inquired on two listed on Controller and Trade-a-Plane and both seem to be under contract already.  There is also a low time 2000 for sale by Aircraft Sales Inc but the ad says "very minor incident 1-15-06 at Tach Time 182.0" When I reviewed maintenance logs I saw it was a result of a gear up landing and prop strike.  The airframe logs have about 2 hand written nearly illegible lines that say minor skin repair and the prop log does show it was overhauled.  However, the latest annual in 2-19 shows they had to replace 3 belly formers. Leads me to believe it wasn't properly repaired back in 2006.  Maybe I'm wrong but at the listed price and just don't get a warm and fuzzy to the point that I would even want to have a pre-buy.  Why not just say in the add gear up landing.  I've read throughout the forum that just because it's had a gear up or prop strike not to necessarily rule it out providing it was repaired correctly, maintenance logs document the repairs, and maintenance history since repairs shows no issues.  I still would think the price should reflect.

I guess I'll have to be patient and keep looking!

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JJ,

Prop strikes are not something somebody can hide any longer... they used to have different rules for this...

They have been redefined and got more specific procedures for what needs to be done...

If the logs aren’t clear about what work the engine got... this probably isn’t a plane for you...

The lowest cost long body, is going to be better for somebody else... not a first time plane owner...

Have you determined if you want or need a turbo yet?

Best regards,

-a-

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Do I need a turbo.  Short answer no.  I've been looking for around a 2000 Ovation 2 or 3 but never can find one. That's caused me to expand my search to a M20M or M20K.  I wouldn't eliminate a turbo that's priced well. I'm starting think I may need to also consider a M20J.  

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Did you visit AAA?

They tend to keep a finger on a few Os and other long bodies...

http://www.allamericanaircraft.com/default.htm

Looks like there are no Os for sale....

I sense a study in price elasticity about beginning....

Wonder if Jimmy’s pricing model accounts for this?

Best regards,

-a-

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I would call AAA as mentioned before. You really need to pin down what your mission is and your budget (purchase price and yearly).  Having said that I do feel the long bodies provide a lot of value. Which planes are under contract so we know which ones you have been looking at?

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Having been a Bravo owner for more than 15 years let me offer a little advice.  Since I fly the Rockies sometimes IFR, the airplane works for me.  If you do not need to fly over 8K you are going to find the cost of ownership mostly maintenance to be excessive.  The Bravo makes sense when flying in the teens but if that is not required for your flying I would keep looking for an Ovation.  The Ovation, Acclaim and Bravo are comfortable airframes especially for long trips.  They all drink more than the 4 cylinder models but you get slightly more speed.  If you have no experience with turbocharged airplanes the Bravo can get really expensive.  No matter what you buy be sure to find a competent instructor.

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@JJV7109 I was in a similar search for about 4-5 months (although probably at a slightly lower purchase price).  I wanted an Ovation but above all else I wanted a plane that I could use to travel long distances.  Given the scarcity of the Ovations, I ended up buying a Bravo.  Although I’m sure that I’m in store for some higher maintenance costs, I’ve really enjoyed it so far.  There’s something to be said for climbing into the low to mid teens at a constant MP without making a lot of other adjustments.  Of course this is available in the K’s as well.  

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For TC’d engines... keep an eye on the hot pipes between the exhaust valve and the turbo...

This is where tube thinning occurs... the pipe is under high temps and pressures all the time... compared to the NA engines...

Also be very familiar with the use and non-reuse characteristics of the pipe V-clamps...

Having a failure in this area releases a cutting torch effect under the cowl... something that active maintenance can easily avoid...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic....

Best regards,

-a-

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My first choice was N527W.  It seemed to have everything I am looking for. Inquired and it was under contract.

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/31037417/2000-mooney-m20r-ovation2

My second choice was N1011R. It too is under contract.

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/29307755/2000-mooney-m20r-ovation2

My third choice was N194DJ. This is the one that listed minor damage. When I investigated further it was a gear up landing on a snow covered grass runway and prop strike by the previous owner.  The repairs to the airframe are not well documented.  The prop overhaul was documented well. I've included the entry in the airframe log that was hand written regarding the minor skin repair then the 2-2019 annual that shows they had to replace belly formers. Maybe it is still a good deal especially if they come down on the price but as a new buyer I'm apprehensive about the extent of the initial airframe repairs and then having to replace the belly forms in February. I'm completely open minded.  I know there many extremely qualified members that could probably give some advise regarding 194DJ.

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/30933927/2000-mooney-m20r-ovation2

 

Airframe Log.jpg

Air Frame Log 2

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This is just my opinion...

Make a decision on tks vs AC vs max UL/speed. This would narrow down or potentially open up (looking at mid bodies K’s and J’s) the planes on your radar. 

I would much rather have the 3 blade prop on 94-99 vintage O’s vs the 2 blade on the 2000-04’s.  Most have been replaced but two of the three above have not.

Don't pay a huge premium for the O2’s panels.  The 225 does not integrate as well with the newer PFD’s and the Mortiz gauges are not desirable IMO.  Also while I like the 430/530 combo they are far from cutting edge.

i guess what I’m saying is open your search to older Ovation and Bravo aircraft and keep looking.

 

 

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4 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Exactly!! @JJV7109, this is the first thing you should check on your pre-buy before you open up one inspection panel on the airplane.

Garmin doesn't make any new GIA-63W units to upgrade the G1000 to WAAS. It's very likely that if this airplane is not already upgraded you will not ever be able to fly WAAS approaches. It's easy to say well I'll just fly ILS approaches. This one thing will determine whether you will ever be able to sell it in the future. All other squawks that you find in a pre-buy on the Bravo can at least be addressed. Right now if it's not already WAAS this would be a major problem for the seller, don't let it become your problem. Don't let the beautiful paint or the huge G1000 screens cloud your judgment. The G1000 is part of the equipment list on this airplane - you can't just put a new panel in with other avionics.

That’s what I thought...Charles sent me a pic from n Las Vegas with a gx Bravo in a hangar.He said it had a g500 Garmin as main display

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4 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Exactly!! @JJV7109, this is the first thing you should check on your pre-buy before you open up one inspection panel on the airplane.

Garmin doesn't make any new GIA-63W units to upgrade the G1000 to WAAS. It's very likely that if this airplane is not already upgraded you will not ever be able to fly WAAS approaches. It's easy to say well I'll just fly ILS approaches. This one thing will determine whether you will ever be able to sell it in the future. All other squawks that you find in a pre-buy on the Bravo can at least be addressed. Right now if it's not already WAAS this would be a major problem for the seller, don't let it become your problem. Don't let the beautiful paint or the huge G1000 screens cloud your judgment. The G1000 is part of the equipment list on this airplane - you can't just put a new panel in with other avionics.

Just out of curiosity what do you think the approximate market value hit is on these planes? If the upgrade path was still available it is probably fair to assume the delta would be about the cost of the upgrade. But assume these last model Bravos would be worth 230-250k if wass enabled, so  what are they worth without?

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25 minutes ago, Bravoman said:

Just out of curiosity what do you think the approximate market value hit is on these planes? If the upgrade path was still available it is probably fair to assume the delta would be about the cost of the upgrade. But assume these last model Bravos would be worth 230-250k if wass enabled, so  what are they worth without?

Good question - if it could never have WAAS, the hit would be pretty severe. There are always new people coming into the market who aren't up to speed and might spend $200,000 on a non-waas GX Bravo or Ovation. Someone who is up to speed and knows they can't be upgraded since the parts aren't available would be crazy to spend anywhere close to $200,000 on something that can't even fly an LPV approach.

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Regarding non-WAAS capable G1000s...I understand you can't fly LPV approaches but as far as meeting ADSB requirements why can't you utilize the GDL88 with internal WAAS with the G1000? The Garmin site says they're compatible I think they run around $5K. 

I reached out to Mooney regarding the non-WAAS G1000s to see what the gospel is these days. I saw a message from Don Maxwell back in June 2018 where he spoke with Mooney and they confirmed Garmin is no longer making GIA63W. Heck they're as bad as Apple when it comes to having to upgrade to new products!! Anyway, I'm not necessarily concerned about LPV approaches. If I can use the GDL88 with a non-WAAS G1000 to have ADSB in/out then I think I'd be ok with a non-WAAS G1000. I know my limitations and I probably wouldn't put myself in a situation where I be so close to minimums I needed LPV precision. Plus unless I strike it super rich this will probably be my first and last AC purchase! Who knows maybe as tech improves I can replace the G1000 down the road without costing an arm and leg!

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I wouldn't get a G1000 Bravo. barely any of them have waas. I was in the same baot last year and wanted a O2GX. decided on an eagle because it was either 135K for a mooney Eagle that could be upgraded to waas for about 10K. 235K for a Ovation Gx that didn't have waas and would cost me about 45K to get is Waas and ADS-B, or 325K for an Ovation GX with waas and ADSB. buying the cheaper plane gave me a lot of options. I can create my panel, and will never have to worry about being stuck with a G1000. with legacy avionics you have so many options. Garmin, Aspen, Avidyne, Mid continent, EI, JPI, Aveo, Lynx, you name it. with the G1000 you have the option for Garmin, and only that. I have @gsengle to thank for that. i remember giving him a lot of shit for telling me to get an Legacy Longbody. in the end he was right, and if I had to do it again, I would 100% get a pre 2005 Mooney. I'd say find an Older ovation and do the 310STC.

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7 hours ago, JJV7109 said:

You mean N755FM? I'm in Maumelle. 

Correct. Where are you gonna base the Ovation / Bravo?

i agree with the others. I would not go with a G1000 Mooney unless it was an Acclaim or Ultra (NXi), or you confirm it has WAAS. I might still be hesitant to go with a G1000 with WAAS since it is tied to the type and you cannot ever replace. 

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