whiskytango Posted March 16, 2019 Report Share Posted March 16, 2019 My engine went Tango Uniform at the start of a flight from Maryland to Georgia. The engine was sent to Florida for overhaul. The overhaul is taking longer than promised, and my plane will be out of annual (by about 2 months) by the time the engine is eventually returned from the shop in Florida. I really don't want to have the shop (located in Maryland) that will be putting the engine back in the plane do the annual. I would like to have the A&P/IA I normally use for my annuals (located in Georgia) do it. Does anyone have any experience in getting a FSDO to sign off on a ferry permit to fly about 500 miles for the purpose of getting the annual done at the shop of choice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted March 16, 2019 Report Share Posted March 16, 2019 I would think just having the shop do the rest of the annual right now before the engine gets back would be a good option. Do you not trust the shop to do a proper annual? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted March 16, 2019 Report Share Posted March 16, 2019 My engine went Tango Uniform at the start of a flight from Maryland to Georgia. The engine was sent to Florida for overhaul. The overhaul is taking longer than promised, and my plane will be out of annual (by about 2 months) by the time the engine is eventually returned from the shop in Florida. I really don't want to have the shop (located in Maryland) that will be putting the engine back in the plane do the annual. I would like to have the A&P/IA I normally use for my annuals (located in Georgia) do it. Does anyone have any experience in getting a FSDO to sign off on a ferry permit to fly about 500 miles for the purpose of getting the annual done at the shop of choice? The Mooney next to me went out of annual and he needed a ferry permit to get it to the shop. If someone doesn’t respond on this site, I would call the local FSDO and explain the situation and ask how to handle the ferry permit. That’s what the owner did next to me and they were extremely helpful on the process (and this was the Philly FSDO). Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted March 16, 2019 Report Share Posted March 16, 2019 If you haven't done so I would suggest you call the Georgia shop you use. If they can't pull the ferry permit they should have an interest in helping you bring them work. This ought to be simple, our friend Don Maxwell gets ferry permits to bring in gear ups every month and that involves a damaged plane with a borrowed prop and an engine that will need to be torn down. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill98 Posted March 17, 2019 Report Share Posted March 17, 2019 Pretty easy and straight forward. Have the shop sign off on a maintenance ferry saying the aircraft is safe to fly. It will be day time VFR only. Ask them to do the ferry paperwork for you. Let them know the reason you want your own shop to do the work is because you have a panel upgrade (or some other work etc). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted March 17, 2019 Report Share Posted March 17, 2019 For simplicity I would really consider having the shop where it's at do the annual. Play this out . . if the shop in Georgia says that there's something not airworthy about the way the engine was installed in Maryland now you have to try to get the shop in Maryland to make it good? Get the annual done and signed off before you bring it back. Life is complicated enough. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted March 17, 2019 Report Share Posted March 17, 2019 Why do you not want them to do the annual? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M016576 Posted March 17, 2019 Report Share Posted March 17, 2019 (edited) 34 minutes ago, M20F said: Why do you not want them to do the annual? My guess, and it’s just that, a guess.... he’d like the A&P IA he trusts and has a relationship with to check the work of the shop that put up the motor. Makes sense to me.... Personally- some of the “scariest” maintenance I’ve come across on my bird has been conducted at big shops. One shop only hand tightened the spark plugs- “forgot” to torque them. Another only hand tightened the oil sump (luckily they safety wired it). I should have know they were suspect- they didn’t even bother to ask about the quick drain- which I left the adapter sotting on the front seat- figured that was obvious enough... I was wrong. Those guys could have killed me. a very popular MSC forgot to connect power to my gear motor. Found that one out after I took off. I swung back around and landed....at least they fixed the issue while I waited. They ceased to get my business after that. Im sure we all have stories about this kind of stuff... I don’t blame the OP if he wants a trusted mechanic to do his annual after such invasive surgery. After I found a local A&P IA, and watched him work, his meticulous nature, and established a mutual trust with him... I wouldn’t trade that for a million faceless “big shop” annuals. to the OP- getting a ferry permit is easy. But make sure your paperwork is all in order in the event a FSDO inspector wants to look over your plane. Oh, and I’d have that shop leave the cowl off for you, so you can take a look before they button it up. Reference those couple things above. Edited March 17, 2019 by M016576 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwing Posted March 17, 2019 Report Share Posted March 17, 2019 I really don’t get this....he trusts the shop to reinstall engine,prop,all electrical,and not conduct a simple annual at the same time.?What am I missing? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean S Posted March 17, 2019 Report Share Posted March 17, 2019 The owner of the aircraft has to submit the ferry permit request. You will need to list any maintenance discrepancies that are the need for the permit along with any overdue ADs. Depending on the AD, the FAA may determine that it will need to be accomplished prior to the ferry flight. The flights are usually restricted to day VFR only, avoid populated areas. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiny moose Posted March 17, 2019 Report Share Posted March 17, 2019 Not difficult but follow the rules. https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/phl/local_more/media/ferry_permit.pdf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Pressley Posted March 17, 2019 Report Share Posted March 17, 2019 We get lots of ferry permits and no two alike. Depends on the fsdo. And the shop in GA cannot get the permit for a plane in MD. Has to come from the fsdo in your area. Your FSDO is pretty good. Be glad you are not a mechanic from another area attempting to get a ferry permit n Florida. We have been told that " WE DO NOT ISSUE PERMITS TO A MECHANIC FROM ANOTHER AREA TO FLY OUT OVER THE GOOD PEOPLE OF FLORIDA. If the fsdo wants to inspect it as do most areas anymore as there are too many inspectors now as compared to the number of airplanes it seems, just hope for an old head as opposed to a newby with FAA. Best to fill out thew request and mail, fax, or email ti your fsdo. Covers all the questions they will ask. 8130 is referenced above from shiny moose 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskytango Posted March 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2019 16 hours ago, thinwing said: I really don’t get this....he trusts the shop to reinstall engine,prop,all electrical,and not conduct a simple annual at the same time.?What am I missing? I really didn't have a choice in the shop that pulled the engine. It was at the airport I was able to reach when the engine died. I know from prior experience with this shop (when I owned another plane) that I don not want them to do my annual. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskytango Posted March 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2019 19 hours ago, M016576 said: My guess, and it’s just that, a guess.... he’d like the A&P IA he trusts and has a relationship with to check the work of the shop that put up the motor. Makes sense to me.... Personally- some of the “scariest” maintenance I’ve come across on my bird has been conducted at big shops. One shop only hand tightened the spark plugs- “forgot” to torque them. Another only hand tightened the oil sump (luckily they safety wired it). I should have know they were suspect- they didn’t even bother to ask about the quick drain- which I left the adapter sotting on the front seat- figured that was obvious enough... I was wrong. Those guys could have killed me. a very popular MSC forgot to connect power to my gear motor. Found that one out after I took off. I swung back around and landed....at least they fixed the issue while I waited. They ceased to get my business after that. Im sure we all have stories about this kind of stuff... I don’t blame the OP if he wants a trusted mechanic to do his annual after such invasive surgery. After I found a local A&P IA, and watched him work, his meticulous nature, and established a mutual trust with him... I wouldn’t trade that for a million faceless “big shop” annuals. to the OP- getting a ferry permit is easy. But make sure your paperwork is all in order in the event a FSDO inspector wants to look over your plane. Oh, and I’d have that shop leave the cowl off for you, so you can take a look before they button it up. Reference those couple things above. You are correct. I have had prior experience with the shop doing the engine removal / install, and do not want them to do the annual. I didn't have much choice where to go when the engine gave up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskytango Posted March 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2019 19 hours ago, M20F said: Why do you not want them to do the annual? Bad experience when I owned another plane. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yooper Rocketman Posted March 18, 2019 Report Share Posted March 18, 2019 2 hours ago, whiskytango said: I really didn't have a choice in the shop that pulled the engine. It was at the airport I was able to reach when the engine died. I know from prior experience with this shop (when I owned another plane) that I don not want them to do my annual. I have a friend (from Spruce Creek) that lost his engine in a Bonanza in Florida (from R.I.) and had his engine done like you mention, after he barely made the small airport. He spent 9 months getting the engine OH'ed and installed, and ended up down over a year and way too much money fixing a ton of issues before he could ever get it back to his home base. I think if he was to do it over he might have been better off pulling the wings and taking it to New Smyrna for the work. Tom 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy95W Posted March 18, 2019 Report Share Posted March 18, 2019 2 hours ago, whiskytango said: Bad experience when I owned another plane. Well, that certainly changes my opinion of your decision. I truly hope it all works out for the best. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwing Posted March 18, 2019 Report Share Posted March 18, 2019 I do too...but I still wonder if this shop is that bad,untrustworthy,overcharges,does faulty work,are child molesters etc...why you would still trust them to do critcal work like an engine/prop /accessory install .What ever dealings you’ve had in the past must have really hacked you off to take the approach you are now doing.Perhaps this is a good time to get an unbiased advocate such as Saavy to intercede on your behalf.If this is the case ,I assume your plan is have the bad shop install the overhauled engine,engine mounts,certify exaust system,make necessary repairs to engine baffling and seals,install accessory’s on engine case the overhaul shops typically don’t do,replace hoses,repair electrical harnesses and do the run up than fix leaks and squawks and Than ferry an out of annual ,unbroken engine in a couple states to home where I assume your trusted mechanic can redo all the previous work.Did I get it right?.I agree with Andy ,hope your plan works out for the best.I know my fsdo would not approve a ferry flight under this scenario.They would question why a ferry flight is necessary after an emergency landing due to an engine failure,new engine installed with all that involves,but the rather trivial additional hours to complete an annual when in their eyes the aircraft is already at a qualified shop.Good luck..let us at MS know how this all works out. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill98 Posted March 18, 2019 Report Share Posted March 18, 2019 2 hours ago, thinwing said: I do too...but I still wonder if this shop is that bad,untrustworthy,overcharges,does faulty work,are child molesters etc...why you would still trust them to do critcal work like an engine/prop /accessory install .What ever dealings you’ve had in the past must have really hacked you off to take the approach you are now doing.Perhaps this is a good time to get an unbiased advocate such as Saavy to intercede on your behalf.If this is the case ,I assume your plan is have the bad shop install the overhauled engine,engine mounts,certify exaust system,make necessary repairs to engine baffling and seals,install accessory’s on engine case the overhaul shops typically don’t do,replace hoses,repair electrical harnesses and do the run up than fix leaks and squawks and Than ferry an out of annual ,unbroken engine in a couple states to home where I assume your trusted mechanic can redo all the previous work.Did I get it right?.I agree with Andy ,hope your plan works out for the best.I know my fsdo would not approve a ferry flight under this scenario.They would question why a ferry flight is necessary after an emergency landing due to an engine failure,new engine installed with all that involves,but the rather trivial additional hours to complete an annual when in their eyes the aircraft is already at a qualified shop.Good luck..let us at MS know how this all works out. Engine swap is pretty straight forward. Having a meticulous iA that knows the ins ands out of an aircraft and where to spot any “gotcha” items is a whole other story. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyril Gibb Posted March 18, 2019 Report Share Posted March 18, 2019 On 3/16/2019 at 11:52 AM, whiskytango said: My engine went Tango Uniform at the start of a flight from Maryland to Georgia. I guess on a positive note, you got yourself on the ground in one piece. A total catastrophic engine failure with no warning is my biggest fear when flying over the frequently inhospitable areas I fly. What happened, and were there any clues that any of us might learn from your unfortunate experience? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskytango Posted March 19, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2019 10 hours ago, Cyril Gibb said: I guess on a positive note, you got yourself on the ground in one piece. A total catastrophic engine failure with no warning is my biggest fear when flying over the frequently inhospitable areas I fly. What happened, and were there any clues that any of us might learn from your unfortunate experience? The oil pressure went to zero. The tech who looked at it in MD believes that the main bearings failed, after having ruled out all of the other simple explanations. There was no indication of any problem prior to the failure. The engine shop still hasn't torn down the engine, so I don't know for certain if that is the cause. About 15 years ago I had an engine failure in a -GB engine on another K model. I didn't make it to an airport in that case, but I was able to land on a road with only minor damage to a wingtip. Ever since then I am constantly asking myself, if the engine failed RIGHT NOW, what would you do? I am not a big fan of night hard IFR as a result of these incidents . 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M016576 Posted March 19, 2019 Report Share Posted March 19, 2019 58 minutes ago, whiskytango said: The oil pressure went to zero. The tech who looked at it in MD believes that the main bearings failed, after having ruled out all of the other simple explanations. There was no indication of any problem prior to the failure. The engine shop still hasn't torn down the engine, so I don't know for certain if that is the cause. About 15 years ago I had an engine failure in a -GB engine on another K model. I didn't make it to an airport in that case, but I was able to land on a road with only minor damage to a wingtip. Ever since then I am constantly asking myself, if the engine failed RIGHT NOW, what would you do? I am not a big fan of night hard IFR as a result of these incidents . Yeah.... but ....does lightening ever strike three times? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwing Posted March 19, 2019 Report Share Posted March 19, 2019 3 hours ago, whiskytango said: The oil pressure went to zero. The tech who looked at it in MD believes that the main bearings failed, after having ruled out all of the other simple explanations. There was no indication of any problem prior to the failure. The engine shop still hasn't torn down the engine, so I don't know for certain if that is the cause. About 15 years ago I had an engine failure in a -GB engine on another K model. I didn't make it to an airport in that case, but I was able to land on a road with only minor damage to a wingtip. Ever since then I am constantly asking myself, if the engine failed RIGHT NOW, what would you do? I am not a big fan of night hard IFR as a result of these incidents . Ok ,oil pressure reading went to zero....than what happened?...oil temp than spilked up?Engine noises or vibration?Was engine still running after emerg landing?Evidence of oil blown out on belly?After landing and shut down,were you able to pull prop thru?What made the mech (from the shop you don’t trust)decide the main bearings had failure ?Did he pull the filter and see metal?Give is a little more info please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskytango Posted March 19, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, thinwing said: Ok ,oil pressure reading went to zero....than what happened?...oil temp than spilked up?Engine noises or vibration?Was engine still running after emerg landing?Evidence of oil blown out on belly?After landing and shut down,were you able to pull prop thru?What made the mech (from the shop you don’t trust)decide the main bearings had failure ?Did he pull the filter and see metal?Give is a little more info please The engine was still running at the time that I landed, and I was not aware of unusual vibration. No oil on the belly. The tech found a large amount of metal in the filter. I am a Savvy Aviation client, and I had them look at photos of the metal that was found. Savvy's reaction was "Wow that is a LOT of metal!", and agreed that the engine needed to be torn down. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M016576 Posted March 19, 2019 Report Share Posted March 19, 2019 I think you’re doing a prudent thing- apply for the ferry permit- it will only be good for a single flight. They may ask you for a date range for which it’s valid, too.... really- the thing is more CYA for the FAA than anything- you aren’t actually required to submit it or phone in or anything... just carry it with you in the plane. timeline from submission to FSDO inspection to issuance of the letter was about a week. That was back in 2011... not sure if it will take longer now- suppose it depends on the region. Good luck! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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