M20C missing in NC mountains from KDKX

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, triple8s said:

My comment of certain electronic non certified Ipads, cell phones and others being toys has to do with points of failure. I have an Ipad and run flight software on it. I have had this for years and it is great for certain things however, if the ipad gets hot or has a glitch and locks up or the device that feeds the Ipad its ahars data fails or has any problem then you have no back up. The same in my opinion for the standby vac in my Ovation it has two points of failure, the attitude indicator is one and the vac pump is the second, if the attitude indicator fails then 20 vac pumps wont help one bit. One component could fail and render the rest useless. This is why I prefer a separate electric standby AI with battery back up or a mini stand alone AHRS with an internal battery back up. When you have several things that have to work to at the same time to give data you have more chances of having a failure. The synthetic vision is great but if I had to make a personal choice I would always choose the simplest and most reliable to be a backup. I always wondered about the ovation instead of having the second vac pump why didnt they just come with an electric second attitude indicator then you would truly have a second redundant system not reliant on anything that is part of the primary. I think RC Allen or Castleberry made an AI that had a turn/slip tube that was electric and had an internal battery that could legally be used in place of the standard TC which could be used to fill the required TC as per regs. 

All good points! None of them justify the “little more than toys” comment. If you’re having that many problems with the solid-state iPad with software that has likely been revised at least 10 times, then some troubleshooting is in order. FlyQ locked up on me exactly one time in the last 10 years and that was one of the earliest versions of the software. If your iPad is failing in the cockpit due to overheating then I would suggest you find a cooling solution (Just like you would for an instrument in the panel). The only time I’ve seen an iPad malfunction is when someone leaves it in the aircraft, in the sun for an extended period of time, an unlikely event in IMC.  I didn't disagree with anything you’d said until you referred to some of the most revolutionary cockpit tools we’ve ever seen as little more than toys.

Edited March 19, 2019 by Shadrach

[gsxrpilot]

I'm with Ross on this and stand by my earlier comment that some are just more comfortable and capable when it comes to modern tech. My iPad overheated just once in my cockpit. I solved that problem and it hasn't happened in the last five years and three different iPads. I've also never had ForeFlight lock up on it. But then I keep it up to date and know how to manage it. It's not perfect, but then neither is anything mounted in the panel. And it's certainly more useful than a toy.

But if you're not comfortable with it, or struggle to use it sometimes, or don't really understand the technology, then it's probably not best that you rely on it for direction in the cockpit.

I also think calling it a toy does a disservice to all the young pilots coming up who are very comfortable with that technology. They should be encouraged to use it in the cockpit, not discouraged by a very experienced pilot, but less than comfortable with the modern tech of portables, calling it a toy.

[ilovecornfields]

1 hour ago, triple8s said:

My comment of certain electronic non certified Ipads, cell phones and others being toys has to do with points of failure. I have an Ipad and run flight software on it. I have had this for years and it is great for certain things however, if the ipad gets hot or has a glitch and locks up or the device that feeds the Ipad its ahars data fails or has any problem then you have no back up. The same in my opinion for the standby vac in my Ovation it has two points of failure, the attitude indicator is one and the vac pump is the second, if the attitude indicator fails then 20 vac pumps wont help one bit. One component could fail and render the rest useless. This is why I prefer a separate electric standby AI with battery back up or a mini stand alone AHRS with an internal battery back up. When you have several things that have to work to at the same time to give data you have more chances of having a failure. The synthetic vision is great but if I had to make a personal choice I would always choose the simplest and most reliable to be a backup. I always wondered about the ovation instead of having the second vac pump why didnt they just come with an electric second attitude indicator then you would truly have a second redundant system not reliant on anything that is part of the primary. I think RC Allen or Castleberry made an AI that had a turn/slip tube that was electric and had an internal battery that could legally be used in place of the standard TC which could be used to fill the required TC as per regs. 

My Ovation has no vaccum system. It does have a G500, two batteries, two alternators and a backup digital AI in case the G500 fails. If that fails I have a FS 210 that sends AHRS to the iPad. If that fails I have a Sentry that sends AHRS and GPS position to a second iPad. If that fails in IMC then it was just my time...

[kortopates]

My issue with iPad technology as a backup for loss of primary instruments is it isn't being realistic in meeting the demands of helping a pilot when the failure occurs in IMC. That is no time to be distracted by setting up the iPad page and trying to verify you're getting good ahars data. Before you get that far the pilot could be in unusual attitudes and fighting trying to not over stress the aircraft. Just imagine turbulence in IMC such as probably the case here. The pilot shouldn't be taking his eyes off his remaining instruments for more than a couple seconds, if conditions allow. 

If the failure occurs in VMC conditions, such on top, and the pilot needs to descend through a thick IMC layer, then by all means the pilot has time to set up his ipad (synthetic vision with AHRS or primary instrument display) and verify level pitch while in VMC before entering IMC. Recall the Bonanza pilot and his pax that didn't survive more than a couple minutes trying to descend through a IMC layer; an iPad fed by an ADHRS could have saved their lives.

But contrast that with what we know of this downed M20C. All we know is that the pilot communicated a loss of Attitude. Its also looks like he was IMC and experiencing significant turbulence. (A local pilot on the BT thread remarked winds were forecasted to be 50-100 mph, even if that is an exaggeration other pilots remarked turbulence is very common in that area of the mountains with any wind. Until he fell off radar at the end he was doing a pretty good job with altitude but you all saw the radar track.) My point is even if he had the iPad with an ADHRS feed he would have had a very difficult job trying to get it set up all the while he was trying to keep the wings level and pitch level in turbulence; especially with a portable ADHRS. Thus counting on having the extra bandwidth to get that setup and confirm wings level attitude when likely you have never looked at that in flight yet isn't very realistic IMO. What you do see may not inspire much confidence if you weren't able to confirm the data in VMC either. (A panel ADHRS source like a GTX-345 would be much more reliable and trustworthy.)

Consequently the only backup's you can really count on is the one already in the panel that has been on since takeoff and allowing you to cross check against your other instruments. Pulling anything out in the heat of battle should a failure occur at the worst time isn't going to be much of a help if any, and possibly portable ADHRS is more of a distraction than value if the pilot loses control before they get  it working; especially if it has to be relocated because of the turbulence. 

Although backup instruments are a great addition to save the day with such failures, the other thing these events should be inspiring us in is to maintain our partial panel skills. Such as in doing IPC's which requires partial panel work. All of us had to demonstrate partial panel to get our IR. That shouldn't be the last time we were capable of flying partial panel. So we really need both, reliable backups and to keep our partial panel skills practiced on the equipment we fly. Only the modern glass panel with glass battery backups relieve us of the need for our partial panel skills but we still need to practice using our backups.        

[gsxrpilot]

Agreed, and I wouldn't ever suggest that the iPad is valid as a primary backup. But it can be very useful in the right circumstances. Often times my iPad stays in the bag on the seat next to me. It's a short flight, I know where I'm going, and it's VFR. But certainly when I know I'm going to be IMC for a period of time and/or shooting an approach in IMC, the iPad is up in it's mount with the ADHARS either on the screen or a single click away, before take off, or long before encountering the expected IMC. It's not ever the ONLY backup, but it's not just a toy either.

FWIW... I've never owned a Mooney that didn't have two AI's in the panel. And now with the AV20S, I have three. Although at the moment, I'd use the iPad before the AV20S.

[Jerry 5TJ]

I do have empathy for the late M20C pilot’s situation.  I have flown numerous hours in bumpy IMC using a single AI powered by one vacuum pump.  My luck was better than his. 

Edited March 19, 2019 by Jerry 5TJ

[ArtVandelay]

My Ovation has no vaccum system. It does have a G500, two batteries, two alternators and a backup digital AI in case the G500 fails. If that fails I have a FS 210 that sends AHRS to the iPad. If that fails I have a Sentry that sends AHRS and GPS position to a second iPad. If that fails in IMC then it was just my time...

If you lose your 2 batteries and alternators, you’ve lost the FS210 unless it has its own power source.


Tom

[toto]

14 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I I have flown numerous hours in bumpy IMC using a single AI powered by one vacuum pump.

It amazes me today how I thought I was very well equipped for bouncing around in IMC because I had two KX-170B radios, a vacuum AI and an electric TC. I lost any number of vacuum pumps over the years (as well as attitude indicators), and it's probably just blind luck that those failures didn't happen at worse times. 

The only good thing I can say about having a single vacuum AI is that you're very attentive to it - and a sluggish display is cause for immediate action. Redundancy can inspire complacency, and we all need to treat a primary AI failure as an emergency, even if we have a solid backup to get us down. 

[Shadrach]

4 minutes ago, toto said:

It amazes me today how I thought I was very well equipped for bouncing around in IMC because I had two KX-170B radios, a vacuum AI and an electric TC. I lost any number of vacuum pumps over the years (as well as attitude indicators), and it's probably just blind luck that those failures didn't happen at worse times. 

The only good thing I can say about having a single vacuum AI is that you're very attentive to it - and a sluggish display is cause for immediate action. Redundancy can inspire complacency, and we all need to treat a primary AI failure as an emergency, even if we have a solid backup to get us down. 

I think a big red annunciator in your primary scan is the best defense.  Referencing an AI that is spooling down could contribute to disorientation.  Vacuum loss = cover instrument immediately. 

[toto]

5 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I think a big red annunciator in your primary scan is the best defense.  Referencing an AI that is spooling down could contribute to disorientation.  Vacuum loss = cover instrument immediately. 

No doubt an annunciator in your scan is a great way to pick up a vacuum problem. I didn't have one back in the day, and my vacuum gauge was way outside any normal panel flow. So I'd have to look all the way to the pax window to see if an analog gauge was showing an unusual indication, and that was hard when bouncing around in IMC. 

My feeling today is that if you can possibly afford to get rid of vacuum-dependent primary instruments, get rid of them. We have far better options now.

If ripping out the vacuum system simply isn't a financial possibility, we would all do well to buy a Dynon D3 (or similar) and mount it somewhere visible. It costs less than a fancy headset. 

[Shadrach]

12 minutes ago, toto said:

No doubt an annunciator in your scan is a great way to pick up a vacuum problem. I didn't have one back in the day, and my vacuum gauge was way outside any normal panel flow. So I'd have to look all the way to the pax window to see if an analog gauge was showing an unusual indication, and that was hard when bouncing around in IMC. 

My feeling today is that if you can possibly afford to get rid of vacuum-dependent primary instruments, get rid of them. We have far better options now.

If ripping out the vacuum system simply isn't a financial possibility, we would all do well to buy a Dynon D3 (or similar) and mount it somewhere visible. It costs less than a fancy headset. 

One thing Mooney was doing right even in the 60s era birds was placing the annunciator right above the AI.  It surprises me when someone relocates it elsewhere for aesthetics.

 

 

[toto]

3 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

One thing Mooney was doing right even in the 60s era birds was placing the annunciator right above the AI.  It surprises me when someone relocates it elsewhere for aesthetics.

 

Yep, that would be hard to miss. 

[Marauder]

My issue with iPad technology as a backup for loss of primary instruments is it isn't being realistic in meeting the demands of helping a pilot when the failure occurs in IMC. That is no time to be distracted by setting up the iPad page and trying to verify you're getting good ahars data. Before you get that far the pilot could be in unusual attitudes and fighting trying to not over stress the aircraft. Just imagine turbulence in IMC such as probably the case here. The pilot shouldn't be taking his eyes off his remaining instruments for more than a couple seconds, if conditions allow.  If the failure occurs in VMC conditions, such on top, and the pilot needs to descend through a thick IMC layer, then by all means the pilot has time to set up his ipad (synthetic vision with AHRS or primary instrument display) and verify level pitch while in VMC before entering IMC. Recall the Bonanza pilot and his pax that didn't survive more than a couple minutes trying to descend through a IMC layer; an iPad fed by an ADHRS could have saved their lives.

But contrast that with what we know of this downed M20C. All we know is that the pilot communicated a loss of Attitude. Its also looks like he was IMC and experiencing significant turbulence. (A local pilot on the BT thread remarked winds were forecasted to be 50-100 mph, even if that is an exaggeration other pilots remarked turbulence is very common in that area of the mountains with any wind. Until he fell off radar at the end he was doing a pretty good job with altitude but you all saw the radar track.) My point is even if he had the iPad with an ADHRS feed he would have had a very difficult job trying to get it set up all the while he was trying to keep the wings level and pitch level in turbulence; especially with a portable ADHRS. Thus counting on having the extra bandwidth to get that setup and confirm wings level attitude when likely you have never looked at that in flight yet isn't very realistic IMO. What you do see may not inspire much confidence if you weren't able to confirm the data in VMC either. (A panel ADHRS source like a GTX-345 would be much more reliable and trustworthy.)

Consequently the only backup's you can really count on is the one already in the panel that has been on since takeoff and allowing you to cross check against your other instruments. Pulling anything out in the heat of battle should a failure occur at the worst time isn't going to be much of a help if any, and possibly portable ADHRS is more of a distraction than value if the pilot loses control before they get  it working; especially if it has to be relocated because of the turbulence. 

Although backup instruments are a great addition to save the day with such failures, the other thing these events should be inspiring us in is to maintain our partial panel skills. Such as in doing IPC's which requires partial panel work. All of us had to demonstrate partial panel to get our IR. That shouldn't be the last time we were capable of flying partial panel. So we really need both, reliable backups and to keep our partial panel skills practiced on the equipment we fly. Only the modern glass panel with glass battery backups relieve us of the need for our partial panel skills but we still need to practice using our backups.        

 

 

Well said Paul. My toes still tingle when I think about all of those years I flew IFR with a single AI and questionable partial panel skills due to lack of practice.

 

When this glass technology became reality, I couldn’t make the jump fast enough. The ability to have a real failover backup strategy was a strong incentive.

 

One dynamic with this glass technology should be mentioned. Partial panel in my plane has been replaced with new skill requirements — failure mode identification & action. In the old days of IFR, my scan included the vacuum gauge, the low vacuum warning light and the normal indicators of instrument failure (instrument crosschecks). Glass panels require an understanding of the failure mode and how to engage the failover properly.

 

Using my Aspen as an example. There was a publicized YouTube video showing the infamous Aspen red X and claiming the failure of the Aspen. In fact, the Aspen didn’t fail. What failed was the pilot forgetting to turn on the pitot heat resulting in the red X. Aspen’s new Max product addresses this risk with a failover mode that now includes an AI with degraded performance. But if the pilot in the YouTube had understood the error message being displayed, they would have understood the cause of the failure and what needed to be done to correct it.

 

 

My partial panel includes understanding how Aspen reversion works and the need to utilize the autopilot reversion switch if the AP remains engaged. In addition, if I were to experience a complete Aspen failure, I need to understand the process to migrate to the ESI-500 and the associated Nav capability.

 

The iPad is just another tool in the toolbox that could be used in an emergency. My preference is stay with the panel mounted stuff because there is enough redundancy and the associated power to keep it operational. I am however entertaining the addition of a B&C standby alternator on my now naked vacuum pad.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

If you lose your 2 batteries and alternators, you’ve lost the FS210 unless it has its own power source.

I'll take two batteries and two alternators over one battery, one alternator, and one vacuum pump any day.

[N201MKTurbo]

While I wouldn't necessarily count on ForeFlight and a Stratus as a backup, it works pretty good and wouldn't hesitate to use it if I was in that situation.

A friend of mine was flying freight at night in 402s and made two flights IFR with the IPad propped up in front of the six pack to see how easy it would be to fly by IPad. He said it was a lot easier than flying with the installed gyros.

[Cyril Gibb]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

 In fact, the Aspen didn’t fail. What failed was the pilot forgetting to turn on the pitot heat resulting in the red X. Aspen’s new Max product addresses this risk with a failover mode that now includes an AI with degraded performance.

What is the logic in losing attitude information if the pitot has an issue?  What happens if the pitot heat fails? 

This accident thread hits closer to home than most others.  KDKX is one of our favourite stopovers southbound.  In the winter it's almost always IMC over those hills, so loss of attitude info would be a challenge.  I  was about to pop over to Spruce to get a Dynon D3 until I read that it shuts down attitude info 2 minutes after losing a GPS signal.   I bought a Stratus 3 instead.

[gsxrpilot]

Regarding the Aspen, it was certified using pitot data. Of course anything can fail at anytime, but pitot heat is a pretty simple system and one would expect it to work more reliably than many of the other systems we rely on. The new MAX version of the Aspens are certified without the need for pitot data, therefore eliminating that link in the chain.

I'm also curious if the Stratus 3 will give AHRS without a GPS signal? I would expect it needs one as well.

This entire thread seems to be all positive and negative at the same time. It's negative in that everyone is trashing everyone else's backup systems, panel equipment, etc. But I guess it's positive that we're all so passionate and giving so much thought to our backup systems and panel equipment, regardless of which side of the debate we're on.

The most important thing is probably that we know what we have, what are plan is to use it, how to use it, and that it's ready to be used before any flight into IMC conditions.

[DXB]

I think the most successful backup tool is the one you are most accustomed to using routinely. As @kortopates notes, if you're fumbling to set up synth vision on your ipad in turbulent IMC after your glass panel goes out, it may not work out so well - you'd better first focus on the attitude instruments you have left in the panel.  But the same problem exists if you only vaguely remember that it's possible to fly pretty accurately on ASI, TC, and altimeter in your 6 pack after your vac pump bites it.  If you practice partial panel regularly (how many of us really do this?) it will likely be ok.  Likewise, if you reference synth vision on your ipad as an added tool during approaches, that may feel quite natural also and offers quite a bit of extra info. Except for a few holdouts, we all have these things on our yoke now - we might as well get comfortable with how to use them to get out of a jam alive.  

[DXB]

17 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'm also curious if the Stratus 3 will give AHRS without a GPS signal? I would expect it needs one as well.

Stratus 2 and later will give attitude info without GPS, not much else.

[ilovecornfields]

4 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

If you lose your 2 batteries and alternators, you’ve lost the FS210 unless it has its own power source.


Tom

That’s why I have the sentry and 2nd iPad. Both independently powered. 

Just because your paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not trying to kill you...

[Marauder]

What is the logic in losing attitude information if the pitot has an issue?  What happens if the pitot heat fails? 
This accident thread hits closer to home than most others.  KDKX is one of our favourite stopovers southbound.  In the winter it's almost always IMC over those hills, so loss of attitude info would be a challenge.  I  was about to pop over to Spruce to get a Dynon D3 until I read that it shuts down attitude info 2 minutes after losing a GPS signal.   I bought a Stratus 3 instead.

My point is that a pilot understand the limitation of the glass equipment they have and more importantly how to correct it. The red X on the Aspen was the FAA requirement since pitot information was part of the algorithm to determine attitude. If you look at the G1000 and the original G500 they all have a potential to go red X as well. That is why they all require a standby AI.

Most G500s did not have the battery backup so if the power failed, you were on the standby instruments. As well, the G500 PFD cannot be ported over to the MFD like it can on an Aspen. The TXi has a version that can. So, in some ways, flying glass has risks if you don’t know the failure modes and what options you have available.

When I fly with some owners who have glass cockpits, it is amazing how little some of them know how their systems operate in a failed state.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[DXB]

2 hours ago, Cyril Gibb said:

What is the logic in losing attitude information if the pitot has an issue?  What happens if the pitot heat fails? .

Scant logic, just the certification issues people note. I find it intolerable that my Stratus will give me good enough attitude info to stay alive without any external inputs, but the Aspen can't be bothered.  Your AI and HSI both become a big red Xs if you lose airspeed.   I think @Fred₂O lost his airspeed recently inside the final fix in IMC not because of icing but possibly some mud dauber goo wedged deep inside the pitot tube swelling to obstruct the drain hole in rain.  I really don't want the shock of seeing the 2 Xs under those circumstances, no matter how robust my backup systems are.   The early Max upgrade reservation discount (2000+ install from my dealer) ends this month.  I jumped at the chance.  

[gsxrpilot]

9 minutes ago, DXB said:

Scant logic, just the certification issues people note. I find it intolerable that my Stratus will give me good enough attitude info to stay alive without any external inputs, but the Aspen can't be bothered.  Your AI and HSI both become a big red Xs if you lose airspeed.   I think @Fred₂O lost his airspeed recently inside the final fix in IMC not because of icing but possibly some mud dauber goo wedged deep inside the pitot tube swelling to obstruct the drain hole in rain.  I really don't want the shock of seeing the 2 Xs under those circumstances, no matter how robust my backup systems are.   The early Max upgrade reservation discount (2000+ install from my dealer) ends this month.  I jumped at the chance.  

Stratus can't be bothered to get certified.

I just don't understand the negative sentiment towards Aspen for this. As has been mentioned many times, all glass panels have traditionally required backup instruments that rely on different systems. Not that they're any more reliable, but just different. That was the tech at the time. It wasn't anything to do with it being a "bother".

My Aspen X'd out last summer in icing conditions. I was the idiot who wasn't running pitot heat. I flipped it on and it came back within seconds. But as per the STC, I had a backup that didn't rely on the pitot. The backup wasn't affected by an iced up pitot.

With the release of the MAX, Aspen is taking advantage of new tech to eliminate the reliance on airspeed. Garmin is doing the same. This is technology advancing, it has nothing to do with negligence on the part of avionics manufacturers.

[DXB]

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I just don't understand the negative sentiment towards Aspen for this. As has been mentioned many times, all glass panels have traditionally required backup instruments that rely on different systems. Not that they're any more reliable, but just different. That was the tech at the time. It wasn't anything to do with it being a "bother".

 

To clarify, I was  anthropomorphizing the somewhat outmoded instrument, not criticizing the hardworking folks at Aspen 

[Shadrach]

6 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

While I wouldn't necessarily count on ForeFlight and a Stratus as a backup, it works pretty good and wouldn't hesitate to use it if I was in that situation.

A friend of mine was flying freight at night in 402s and made two flights IFR with the IPad propped up in front of the six pack to see how easy it would be to fly by IPad. He said it was a lot easier than flying with the installed gyros.

Yes and no.  As a safety pilot, I’ve watched several instrument students pay too much attention to georeferenced approach plates. They end up chasing an icon as they zig zag down the localizer rather than find the appropriate correction and hold.