800 MAX?

[Marauder]

According to Boeing, they will have a software update in 10 days or less for the Boeing 737 Max -8. Does that make it a, 737 Max-8.1?

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You tell me. I was talking to someone who named your airline as one that might have been impacted by the grounding. Does your airline have that many in the fleet?



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[Guitarmaster]

You tell me. I was talking to someone who named your airline as one that might have been impacted by the grounding. Does your airline have that many in the fleet?



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Yep. I think we have 34 of them. Scrambling to cover flights affected by the grounding.


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[tigers2007]

Just write “INOP” on the MCAS and hand fly ‘em like the commuter jockeys do. 

[mike_elliott]

10 hours ago, Guitarmaster said:

According to Boeing, they will have a software update in 10 days or less for the Boeing 737 Max -8. Does that make it a, 737 Max-8.1?

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Like Windows, avoid all the even number versions...

[yvesg]

Here is a very interesting article that gives some technical details including politics of the events that led to the certification of the aircraft:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-faa-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

Yves

[jetdriven]

On 3/16/2019 at 5:02 AM, Hyett6420 said:

If. This is true then boeing have not learnt from the Amsterdam crash where the ap was only receiving inputs from the captains static port and thus shiwed incorrect speed, plane crashed.  Appaling if this is still the case where only one instrumment is being relied on.  I dont care how big a company you are, if you are doing this you deserve everyhting the lawyers throw at you.

Yes but, like the MCAS fault, the pilot is suppsed to notice the power rolled back to idle for a full minute and the airspeed was 50 knots below the bug speed. Same with Asiana at SFO.  You can’t sit there and blindly let it do what it wants to you. 

[Guitarmaster]

Yes but, like the MCAS fault, the pilot is suppsed to notice the power rolled back to idle for a full minute and the airspeed was 50 knots below the bug speed. Same with Asiana at SFO.  You can’t sit there and blindly let it do what it wants to you. 

This is spot-on Byron.  

With the pilot shortage, that the airline's knew was coming years ago, there's a big push now to get people in the cockpit. This means rapid training. The ab-initio programs are fine, if you want systems managers but....

There's no way you can learn all the nuances of flying much less airline operations in 200 hours. Frankly, every pilot should be scared in an airplane at least once. That scare should not come in an airliner.

Automation reliance is a problem. This is nothing new with the Advent of modern avionics. There's so little emphasis put on stick and rudder skills in flight schools anymore. In the end, that's what it will take to save your ass.

I used to fly with quite a number of kids as my FO that were from the, "elite," schools. They were typically very good at bookwork and understanding the numbers but usually fell down when it came to hand flying the airplane.

The pilot is the last line of defense against an errant automation issue. Without solid stick and rudder skills, this part of safety really falls on its face.

 

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[carusoam]

Too Off topic ideas used to reside in this post... 

-a-

[gsxrpilot]

37 minutes ago, Guitarmaster said:

With the pilot shortage, that the airline's knew was coming years ago, there's a big push now to get people in the cockpit. This means rapid training. The ab-initio programs are fine, if you want systems managers but....

There's no way you can learn all the nuances of flying much less airline operations in 200 hours. Frankly, every pilot should be scared in an airplane at least once. That scare should not come in an airliner.

Ab-initio is how 90% of airline pilots outside the US are trained. No where in the world is GA a thing like it is here in the US. It's just a fact and nothing will change that. In fact with GA on a steady decline here in the US, we can expect Ab-initio to become more prevalent here, not less. The "pilot shortage" has very little to do with it. Regardless, Boeing and Airbus have to know this is the case and build systems accordingly.

People keep brining up the FO with 200 hours of experience. As I've stated before, I guarantee that's not 200 total time, or even PIC time. If the 200 is indeed a relevant number it might be 200 hours in the 737. Like I said, I've been to the Aviation Academy for Ethiopian Airlines. I know what their standards and requirements are. And they are not putting 200 hour pilots in the cockpit.

[M016576]

I think their is a reason why military pilots are in high demand right now in the Majors.

 

thats my conversation grenade for the day!

[M20F]

35 minutes ago, M016576 said:

I think their is a reason why military pilots are in high demand right now in the Majors.

 

thats my conversation grenade for the day!

It isn’t just an issue with the airlines it is the challenge with automation in general.  Read Robert Bucks book North Star Over My Shoulder.  He started inDC2’s and had to wiggle the rudder peddles the whole flight as a FO to act as manual us dampener.  He went on to finish his career doing TWA’s acceptance flight of the 747 (and a lot in the middle).  

Try to teach IFR today and all people do is stare at their iPads.  You just don’t get the same muscle memory as you did doing 5000 ADF approaches (a generalization that somebody will of course pick apart).  

Automation is great but it still needs to be backed up with both system knowledge (Air France incident and others) and basic stick and rudder skills (American DC10).  The pilot has always been and will always be the weak point or the strong point (Miracle on the Hudson) in the equation.  

[Andy95W]

44 minutes ago, M016576 said:

I think their is a reason why military pilots are in high demand right now in the Majors.

 

thats my conversation grenade for the day!

Military pilots have always been in high demand because of the quality of the training.  Duh.  The problem is that except for post WWII and post Vietnam, there just aren't enough Military pilots to fill the job openings at the airlines.

I've flown with former C-130 and P-3 Orion guys who did a great job.  My last trip was with an A-10 guy who was fantastic.  But the guys who came from the regional airlines with 5,000 hours hand-flying ILS approaches to minimums were definitely just as good (and a little better at understanding the job, frankly.)

[m20kmooney]

Obviously every  accident is different. However how a situation is handled determines the outcome and depends on training and experience. For what it's worth Ethiopian Airlines is nowhere to be found in the list of the world’s top 20 safest airlines.

Edited March 17, 2019 by m20kmooney

[LANCECASPER]

They get a 6/7 from airlineratings.com due to a 2010 crash which some attribute to terrorism.

[Yetti]

On 3/16/2019 at 8:34 AM, mike_elliott said:

Like Windows, avoid all the even number versions...

Nope.  7 was bad and they skipped 9.   We have been on 10 for the last 9 years

[mike_elliott]

21 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Nope.  7 was bad and they skipped 9.   We have been on 10 for the last 9 years

Youngster...how quick you forget W8 and the dreaded Vista (W6) Windows 7 was pure ecstasy after Vista. W10 released in 2016

[peevee]

3 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Youngster...how quick you forget W8 and the dreaded Vista (W6) Windows 7 was pure ecstasy after Vista. W10 released in 2016

windows millennium, anyone?

win ME I believe was technically windows 9

Edited March 18, 2019 by peevee

[Yetti]

4 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Youngster...how quick you forget W8 and the dreaded Vista (W6) Windows 7 was pure ecstasy after Vista. W10 released in 2016

ffft

Microsoft Bob.  Look it up youngster

[N201MKTurbo]

So the latest news doesn't look good for Boeing and the FAA!

https://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/101/4288-full.html?ET=avweb:e4288:232826a:&st=email#232430

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-faa-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/?utm_source=marketingcloud&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=BNA_031719130226+Crucial+flaws+in+Boeing+737+MAX+safety+analysis_3_17_2019&utm_term=Active+subscriber&fbclid=IwAR0heI7SPRsoWF0DnSKthNZ9opvMePUi1DQpRJ1K6bTC2XjUQIS5JFZ49SM

 

Edited March 19, 2019 by N201MKTurbo

[peevee]

You can't have it both ways. You can't push for less faa involvement and more industry certification and then bitch when the review isn't as thorough.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, peevee said:

You can't have it both ways. You can't push for less faa involvement and more industry certification and then bitch when the review isn't as thorough.

It doesn't matter which way you think. The media and politicians are going to have a field day with this and ultimately the only ones who are not going to suffer are the lawyers!  

[DXB]

On 3/15/2019 at 2:51 PM, Ned Gravel said:

The video from Nov 2018 that @tigers2007 posted showed what to do when the system calls for nose down and the crew believe it may not be warranted.  Solution? Turn these off. 

The same solution is shown, in part, by the latest AOPA entry into the discussion at https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2019/march/14/faa-grounds-boeing-737-max-fleet. 

It appears that modifying operations manuals, modifying crew training, and one software modification (apparently due out in April) may resolve the issue altogether.  But maybe that is just me being hopeful.

New info seems to indicate the Ethiopian pilots did respond appropriately by turning the stab trim off but still found the plane so hard to control that, at some point before their demise, they tried turning the system back on.  Can anyone here who knows big jets elaborate on what might have happened? Is that plane really hard to control with manual trim?  It's  depressing to think the design might be so flawed that pilots who identified the problem and knew  what to do (as one would expect of any 737 Max pilot after the recent Indonesian crash) still couldn't deal with the issue well enough to save the aircraft.  

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/04/world/asia/ethiopia-crash-boeing.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

More bad news for Boeing - I don't think anyone could be faulted for not wanting to fly on these planes at the moment.  Until now, I would have not had an issue doing so.  

[gsxrpilot]

It's a very sad situation and looking like Boeing is not blameless here. And it will be very sad if this is a result of the relationship between FAA and Boeing just getting too cozy.

[jaylw314]

39 minutes ago, DXB said:

New info seems to indicate the Ethiopian pilots did respond appropriately by turning the stab trim off but still found the plane so hard to control that, at some point before their demise, they tried turning the system back on.  Can anyone here who knows big jets elaborate on what might have happened? Is that plane really hard to control with manual trim?  It's  depressing to think the design might be so flawed that pilots who identified the problem and knew  what to do (as one would expect of any 737 Max pilot after the recent Indonesian crash) still couldn't deal with the issue well enough to save the aircraft.  

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/04/world/asia/ethiopia-crash-boeing.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

More bad news for Boeing - I don't think anyone could be faulted for not wanting to fly on these planes at the moment.  Until now, I would have not had an issue doing so.  

It will be interesting to see the full timeline.  There is still the discrepancy between the op-ed from AOPA suggesting there have been a number of failures in the ASRS that have simply resulted in turning off the trim system and continuing to the destination, and this (and one other) instance where there was a catastrophic failure to recover control.  If they turned off the trim system, why did they still have so much difficulty controlling the aircraft that they resorted to turning it back on, when other pilots have seen it as a non-issue?

The big bugaboo possibility, of course, is that the MCAS sensor failure is a red herring, and there is actually some other failure mode.

[gsxrpilot]

It's also been reported in the Seattle Times, that the combination of being in a full power climb, and because a single action of the MCAS results in 60 turns of the manual trim wheel, this can result in a condition where it is physically impossible to move the trim wheel by hand at that point. And that pilots have to go back to electric trim to free the wheel. But in this case, when trim is activated, the MCAS kicked back on a spun the wheel further. This error happening immediately on takeoff just left the pilots with not enough time or altitude to fix the issue.