Recommended Posts

Any thoughts on the 800 MAX?  The grounding of them?  Auto Trim issue? pilot training?  Always easy to Arm Chair quarter back, but US and  European pilots didn't seem to have an issue. The crashes were India and Ethiopian (FO with 200 hours).  Rumor has it that there is a lot of dependency on automation in counties outside the US and Western Europe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*Members that donate $10 or more do not see advertisements*

Just reading about the eye witnesses accounts of the latest crash .  One sentence caught my attention.  It mentioned smoke, loud noises and items coming out such as books and clothes. 

And that was before the plane hit the ground. That made me think about an explosion and items being sucked out .

Just the thought of the nose being pushed over by the computer at low altitude is terrifying . I dont think the airplane should be idiot proof . I think I would have a whole new prospective if one went down in North America .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They are actually -8 & -9 models. The 600/700/800/900 are the previous generation.

Everything I've read indicates that it is a prudent move. Boeing changed a LOT in the development and hid the now infamous MCAS system from the pilots. Apparently it was needed to make the Max fly like the others and this avoid costly retraining. That is likely to bite them on the backside very soon IMO.

I can't believe that what seems to be the failure of a single sensor (AOA in this case) can wreak such havoc with the flight controls. I think someone screwed up with this system architecture as well as passing it thru certification. I'm especially curious to learn if the FAA knew every detail under the hood here, or if company designees signed off instead.

Beechtalk has a 25+ page discussion going on this accident, along with input from 737 pilots. Their descriptions of the failure and resulting chaos are frightening.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was amazed to hear that the Ethiopian FO had 200 TOTAL time.  He could have had more time in trainers than in a heavy aircraft!

So now I need to wait for United to tell me if my flight from HOU to SJC tomorrow, still showing  a 737-9 MAX, will still fly & if there will be sufficient seats for those of us holding cheap seats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It’s not rare for third world pilots to have bogus logbook data.

From what I read the “Senior” captain had “8,000 flight hours after nine years of flying” and was 28 years old. You do the math. There is no way he/she accumulated 8k time over nine years of flying around in a third world continent.

I know a guy who’s father owned an airline in Nigeria and he also got his US ratings here up to commercial, ME, and instrument. If I can get hold of him, I’m gonna ask how easy it would be for a teenager to rack up so many hours so fast.

I know we have many CRJ/ERJ drivers as MS members here and ask them how many hours they get in a year flying reserve. HAH!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Supposing this takes weeks and months to find the design error and certify the fix these planes would be grounded a long time.  Do the airlines have enough alternative airplanes to soak up the demand and keep up with demand?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, tigers2007 said:

It’s not rare for third world pilots to have bogus logbook data.

From what I read the “Senior” captain had “8,000 flight hours after nine years of flying” and was 28 years old. You do the math. There is no way he/she accumulated 8k time over nine years of flying around in a third world continent.

I know a guy who’s father owned an airline in Nigeria and he also got his US ratings here up to commercial, ME, and instrument. If I can get hold of him, I’m gonna ask how easy it would be for a teenager to rack up so many hours so fast.

I know we have many CRJ/ERJ drivers as MS members here and ask them how many hours they get in a year flying reserve. HAH!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You have assumed though that the information you have read in newspapers or online is true.  We all know that these days media's ability to correctly report facts so close to an actual accident, is the same as pigs flying over Buckingham Palace.  

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My only comment is autopilot should have 2 modes: ON or OFF.

If OFF, No auto throttle or auto trim. Pilot controls all.
If ON, it handles trim, throttles, etc



Tom

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem is that computers fly the airplanes.  The pilot or autopilot directs the computers.  

If the computers get conflicting information, or worse, the wrong information, they will react in unexpected ways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

You have assumed though that the information you have read in newspapers or online is true.  We all know that these days media's ability to correctly report facts so close to an actual accident, is the same as pigs flying over Buckingham Palace.  

Oh, I know that media can't be trusted especially if it involves aviation LOL. I always fall out of my chair when the media rips on a dead pilot "who's pilot certificate was issued only six months ago" etc. yet they were an IFR commercial rated pilot who was in their 60's. Clearly those morons don't know anything about how the FAA pilot database does not list the original dates of issuance.

But my comments still hold water regarding banging-the-books when it comes to logbook records. With ADS-B's prevalence in the U.S.A. now, I bet that simple auditing of flight data against logbook entries will result in blackballed pilots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, tigers2007 said:

With ADS-B's prevalence in the U.S.A. now, I bet that simple auditing of flight data against logbook entries will result in blackballed pilots.

ADS-B tracks the plane...has no idea who's at the controls

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have experience with Ethiopian Airlines going back to 1976 and my family has ties to Ethiopian Airlines going back to when it was still on the drawing board in the 1940's.*  I've flown Ethiopian Airlines several times every year for the last few years. On a recent flight I was seated next to the Boeing VP from Seattle who covers Africa. He said they were Boeing's best customer in Africa and second place wasn't even close. They also fly one of the most modern fleets anywhere in the world. I've flown lots of airlines around the world and around Africa. And Ethiopian Airlines is the premier Airline in Africa and actually a very nice airline to fly anywhere in the world. They are almost a 100% Boeing fleet, and is the largest airline in Africa. 

I've also done quite a bit of business with their Parent Corp, Ethiopia Group, which includes their training arm. While GA is virtually non-existent in this and many parts of the world, Ethiopian runs a very large and well respected Aviation Academy. I would not believe the reports you're seeing in the media of low hours and low experience. When I visited their training academy, I was shocked at how modern and extensive it was. They have huge classes that start every year and most are weeded out early leaving only the best and most talented. They also train pilots from all over Africa as well as Asia. 

There are also a very large number of female pilots flying for Ethiopian Airlines. Notably on the first Dreamliner flight from Addis (the capital) to Riyadh (capital of Saudi Arabia), Ethiopian Airlines sent it with an entire female crew. Captain, FO, Purser, and all flight attendants were female, just to make a point. Classes at the aviation academy are almost 50% female.

It's still Africa, but Ethiopian Airlines is not some third world operation. But rather a proper modern airline with standards that would be considered rigorous anywhere in the world.

*My grandfather, Dr. Claude Steen Jr. an American missionary, was the very first Chief Medical Officer and Flight Surgeon for Ethiopian Airlines and the first AME in Ethiopia. In 1945, Emperor Haile Selassie sent my Grandfather back to the US to interview HH Holloway to be the first GM of Ethiopian Airlines.

--and now you know the rest of the story.

  • Like 12
  • Thanks 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, RLCarter said:

ADS-B tracks the plane...has no idea who's at the controls

Yeah but if pilot Joe puts down he had 3.4hrs in N12345 on 02/01/2019 and the data shows N12345 only flying 2.4hrs that day and it shows the complete flight from point A to B, then there are some questions to be asked. YES I know that ADS-B data isn't completely accurate and sometimes is missing pieces but I'm quite sure that pilot Joe will be straining to do some explaining.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, tigers2007 said:

Yeah but if pilot Joe puts down he had 3.4hrs in N12345 on 02/01/2019 and the data shows N12345 only flying 2.4hrs that day and it shows the complete flight from point A to B, then there are some questions to be asked. YES I know that ADS-B data isn't completely accurate and sometimes is missing pieces but I'm quite sure that pilot Joe will be straining to do some explaining.

And you think the FAA's gonna put that data together? Our FAA?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, tigers2007 said:

Yeah but if pilot Joe puts down he had 3.4hrs in N12345 on 02/01/2019 and the data shows N12345 only flying 2.4hrs that day and it shows the complete flight from point A to B, then there are some questions to be asked. YES I know that ADS-B data isn't completely accurate and sometimes is missing pieces but I'm quite sure that pilot Joe will be straining to do some explaining.

The FAA is 2 months behind on registrations, they're not going to drill that deep

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, gsxrpilot said:

And you think the FAA's gonna put that data together? Our FAA?

I highly doubt that as I'm a bureaucrat myself and a single incident would take a career to investigate. No, this would be done by the airlines; non-government firms that want to check-out their candidates. This could be easily done with software considering the rise of electronic records. It could do a simple audit in seconds of complete flights that happened to have continuous data and then bring up questionable flights. But, I'm sure sure the knuckleheads in a rush to rack up hours would figure it out a different way to do it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I remember when my colleagues and I would find multiple logbooks in transporters. They had two sets of books. One for law enforcement and another one for pay. But now we have electronic records. I don't deal with trucks anymore (thank God) so I'm not sure how the drivers are bangin the books now.

On another note, I had a friend once give me humorous advice. I was complaining how I didn't have time to rack up flight hours and also study for the MCAT. He asked how pilots kept track of the logbook time and I mentioned how we generally use the Hobbs meter. He came back with a serious idea - taxi out to the tarmac, start up the engine, and study inside. I actually had to find the specific wording in the CFR that it must involve actual flight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I highly doubt that as I'm a bureaucrat myself and a single incident would take a career to investigate. No, this would be done by the airlines; non-government firms that want to check-out their candidates. This could be easily done with software considering the rise of electronic records. It could do a simple audit in seconds of complete flights that happened to have continuous data and then bring up questionable flights. But, I'm sure sure the knuckleheads in a rush to rack up hours would figure it out a different way to do it.

Now I’ll buy that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Dan208 said:

Just reading about the eye witnesses accounts of the latest crash .  One sentence caught my attention.  It mentioned smoke, loud noises and items coming out such as books and clothes. 

And that was before the plane hit the ground. That made me think about an explosion and items being sucked out .

Just the thought of the nose being pushed over by the computer at low altitude is terrifying . I dont think the airplane should be idiot proof . I think I would have a whole new prospective if one went down in North America .

If you ever hear that a plane looked odd while flying (like smoke or the engines didn’t sound right) assume that is 100% incorrect

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I have experience with Ethiopian Airlines going back to 1976 and my family has ties to Ethiopian Airlines going back to when it was still on the drawing board in the 1940's.*  I've flown Ethiopian Airlines several times every year for the last few years. On a recent flight I was seated next to the Boeing VP from Seattle who covers Africa. He said they were Boeing's best customer in Africa and second place wasn't even close. They also fly one of the most modern fleets anywhere in the world. I've flown lots of airlines around the world and around Africa. And Ethiopian Airlines is the premier Airline in Africa and actually a very nice airline to fly anywhere in the world. They are almost a 100% Boeing fleet, and is the largest airline in Africa. 

I've also done quite a bit of business with their Parent Corp, Ethiopia Group, which includes their training arm. While GA is virtually non-existent in this and many parts of the world, Ethiopian runs a very large and well respected Aviation Academy. I would not believe the reports you're seeing in the media of low hours and low experience. When I visited their training academy, I was shocked at how modern and extensive it was. They have huge classes that start every year and most are weeded out early leaving only the best and most talented. They also train pilots from all over Africa as well as Asia. 

There are also a very large number of female pilots flying for Ethiopian Airlines. Notably on the first Dreamliner flight from Addis (the capital) to Riyadh (capital of Saudi Arabia), Ethiopian Airlines sent it with an entire female crew. Captain, FO, Purser, and all flight attendants were female, just to make a point. Classes at the aviation academy are almost 50% female.

It's still Africa, but Ethiopian Airlines is not some third world operation. But rather a proper modern airline with standards that would be considered rigorous anywhere in the world.

*My grandfather, Dr. Claude Steen Jr. an American missionary, was the very first Chief Medical Officer and Flight Surgeon for Ethiopian Airlines and the first AME in Ethiopia. In 1945, Emperor Haile Selassie sent my Grandfather back to the US to interview HH Holloway to be the first GM of Ethiopian Airlines.

--and now you know the rest of the story.

I'm sorry Paul, you need to be barred from comment on subjects that include international operations actions taken by foreign countries and just about any subject.  You have too damn much direct experience making it hard for those of us that think we know what we're talking about get our uninformed opinions into the fray...;) It is very sad that this has happened but how many safe flights have been made with this model 737 I would not feel any concern if we were to be scheduled on this type.

  • Like 4
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, tigers2007 said:

Yeah but if pilot Joe puts down he had 3.4hrs in N12345 on 02/01/2019 and the data shows N12345 only flying 2.4hrs that day and it shows the complete flight from point A to B, then there are some questions to be asked. YES I know that ADS-B data isn't completely accurate and sometimes is missing pieces but I'm quite sure that pilot Joe will be straining to do some explaining.

“We stayed on the ground with engines running for an hour”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, bill98 said:

“We stayed on the ground with engines running for an hour”

Hah, but replicated for dozens if not hundreds of flights? You catch my drift. Besides, logging flight time is supposed to be the time in the air.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm sorry Paul, you need to be barred from comment on subjects that include international operations actions taken by foreign countries and just about any subject.  You have too damn much direct experience making it hard for those of us that think we know what we're talking about get our uninformed opinions into the fray... It is very sad that this has happened but how many safe flights have been made with this model 737 I would not feel any concern if we were to be scheduled on this type.

hahahahaha

I flew on a -9 MAX today. And my brother, a SWA Captain who some of you have met, flies them all the time. So I agree, I’m not afraid to fly on that plane. But shit can happen anytime anywhere, so I wouldn’t be afraid to fly on the plane even piloted by an Ethiopian crew either.
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, tigers2007 said:

Besides, logging flight time is supposed to be the time in the air.

FAR Subchapter A Part 1 Section 1.1

Flight Time means:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.