buying advise

[south]

Found a Mooney M20C that I am real interested in.

I am PPL with IFR rating.

Mission:  Local flights ~100 miles, occasional longer X-Ctry flights, regional pilots and paws flights, hopefully angel flights once I get the hours.

Pros:

Has single axis S-Tec autopilot, ifr gps, decent radios, and low time engine and annual on sale, decent paint and interior, Prop just had 100 inspection, all logs.

Cons:

No adsb, 2 gear ups landings in last 10 years, latest included a prop strike, engine wasn’t OH, but was inspected and cleared, waiting on answer about fuel tanks.

Doubt I will get a chance to see it in person or test fly it due to location, however, there is a Mooney Service Center within 100 miles that would do the Pre-buy.

I am a first time buyer, asking price is within budget but on the high end.

I realize I can make any offer I want and the seller can respond however they want, I just want some opinions from you guys:

I am thinking of making out the door offer 3-4K below asking, simply due to the damage history.  I will pay to have it delivered to the mooney service center for the Pre-buy.  Assuming good pre-buy, I will pay to have it delivered to me.  I am a bit nervous making a purchase like this site unseen, pictures seem good.

Thoughts? Am I missing anything or what else should I be thinking about?  

Thanks

[rbridges]

where are you and the plane located?  There may be a member nearby that could inspect it for you.

[Boilermonkey]

Even if I had a MSC do a pre-buy or annual I would still go see it.  Fly commercial, or whatever, go take a look.  An airplane is to much of a financial and emotional investment to not go and see it.  For the same reason you'd never have a mail order bride.

Prepare your negotiation tactics.  It's fine to offer lower talking about the damage and I'll bet the seller is going to say they already considered that in the selling price.  So, prepare your next level of argument.  If the gear up landings happened over 100-150 tach hours ago then I would not be too concerned about them.   I agree with your thoughts about the fuel tank reseal.  I'd also look a the time since last gear donuts, mags OH, and carb OH.  You'll also want the spar and body checked for corrosion...get pics. 

 

[ArtVandelay]

where are you and the plane located?  There may be a member nearby that could inspect it for you.

If not this, you can contact a local broker and have them look at it on your behalf. If it’s local to them it should only cost you a few hundred. Especially if you don’t have any experience buying airplanes.


Tom

[Yetti]

The circumstances around this are very important " a prop strike, engine wasn’t OH, but was inspected and cleared, "  

[Yetti]

ADSB is also important at this point in the year.

[67 m20F chump]

Exactly what was done for the prop strike inspection?  What price point are you looking at?  An inexpensive airplane can get expensive fast.  Don’t be in a rush to buy.  After you look at the market you will know when a good prospect pops up.  It’s always cheaper to buy the plane you want than to make one into the plane you want.  

I’m not the best negotiator but in my experience if you are not with in about 10% of the asking price the deal does not happen.  Many owners are unrealistic about what the plane they own is worth.  You will see them listed for sale for a long time.  Some people list planes at unrealistic prices so the can say to the wife “look it’s for sale”.

You will find your plane.  Don’t forget to have 5-10k in a slush/burn fund for first year expenses.

[David_H]

1 hour ago, Boilermonkey said:

Even if I had a MSC do a pre-buy or annual I would still go see it.  Fly commercial, or whatever, go take a look.  An airplane is to much of a financial and emotional investment to not go and see it.  For the same reason you'd never have a mail order bride.

^ This...

The commercial plane ticket and time required to go see a plane in person is small compared to time required to maintain a plane.... unless you have extremely deep pockets.

If they can't send you enough information to justify the purchase of a commercial ticket to see it in person and you still decide to purchase sight unseen, be prepared to make the blank checks rain.

[ArtVandelay]

ADSB is also important at this point in the year.

For some, but it’s not required.


Tom

[ArtVandelay]

I’m not the best negotiator but in my experience if you are not with in about 10% of the asking price the deal does not happen.  Many owners are unrealistic about what the plane they own is worth.  You will see them listed for sale for a long time.

True,
I always do them the courtesy of itemizing the reasons if offering less then asking.
On the flip side you’ll have buyers expecting a 40-50 year old plane to be like new.


Tom

[Yetti]

12 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

True,
I always do them the courtesy of itemizing the reasons if offering less then asking.
On the flip side you’ll have buyers expecting a 40-50 year old plane to be like new.


Tom

And wanting to recover maintenance costs.

[kortopates]

3 hours ago, south said:

latest included a prop strike, engine wasn’t OH, but was inspected and cleared,

If the engine wasn't IRAN'd, just complied with the Lyc SB, I wouldn't even consider it. Too much risk. As long as it was insured, no insurance company would have refused to IRAN a prop strike since there is too much liability exposure down the road.

3 hours ago, south said:

Doubt I will get a chance to see it in person or test fly it due to location

Sorry, but this is enough reason to not to purchase an aircraft. Its one of the biggest mistakes people make - I liked @Boilermonkey analogy of a mail order bride. Surely you can afford a airline fare over a weekend to go see it.

 

3 hours ago, south said:

I am a bit nervous making a purchase like this site unseen, pictures seem good.

You should be!!! pictures aren't enough.

[KLRDMD]

11 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Sorry, but this is enough reason to not to purchase an aircraft. Its one of the biggest mistakes people make - I liked @Boilermonkey analogy of a mail order bride. Surely you can afford a airline fare over a weekend to go see it.

That's news to me. Most of the airplanes I've bought I first saw when it was delivered to me. I guess I've been doing it wrong for the last +/- 20 years and 16 airplanes.

[ArtVandelay]

That's news to me. Most of the airplanes I've bought I first saw when it was delivered to me. I guess I've been doing it wrong for the last +/- 20 years and 16 airplanes.

But you know what to look for, and questions to ask. This is OPs first plane.

 

Has the OP reviewed the logs yet?

 

 

Tom

[KLRDMD]

22 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

But you know what to look for, and questions to ask. This is OPs first plane.

And that's the problem with making blanket statements. He may simply need someone on his side that knows what to look for and the questions to ask. Maybe it isn't necessary for him to personally see the airplane prior to purchase. Each person's situation is different.

[south]

Have reviewed the logs.  All logs available...gear up in 2015 with prop strike.  All repairs and engine overhaul (Jan 2016) very well documented.  Another gear up in 2017, prop strike, engine only had 20 hours on it.  No tear down on second prop strike, the crank was dialed and the prop strike inspection completed (all documented).  Rest of the logs show regular maintenance and a few repairs (standard annual verbiage, oil changes, fuel pump, instrument upgrades, etc.).

I dont see anything on tanks being sealed or even mentioned.

I can certainly afford to go see it, its the time I dont have...and while I have been around several airplanes, 0 time in Mooney's, so outside of avionics performance and cosmetics not sure my opinion after a short test flight would make much difference.  

The plane is priced ~$40k, my offer was going to be in the 35-36 range, based on damage history and adsb, all dependent on MSC pre-buy results (I spoke to the MSC and for a few extra $$ would give the engine a good look knowing the history).

3000 hours total time, ~35 on engine now.

 

 

[KLRDMD]

4 minutes ago, south said:

The plane is priced ~$40k, my offer was going to be in the 35-36 range, based on damage history and adsb, all dependent on MSC pre-buy results (I spoke to the MSC and for a few extra $$ would give the engine a good look knowing the history).

What does Jimmy's valuation tool place the value at ?

Some airplanes are priced fairly as-is, others, not so much.

[67 m20F chump]

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/SB533C Recommended Action for sudden Engine Stoppage%2C Propeller_Rotor Strike or Loss of Propeller_Rotor Blade or Ti (1).pdf

This isn’t the plane you want.  I’m not sure I copied the correct link but google lycoming prop strike inspection.  

[David_H]

29 minutes ago, south said:

3000 hours total time, ~35 on engine now.

15 hrs over the course of 2 years after the last Prop Strike... yikes.

[ArtVandelay]

Have reviewed the logs.  All logs available...gear up in 2015 with prop strike.  All repairs and engine overhaul (Jan 2016) very well documented.  Another gear up in 2017, prop strike, engine only had 20 hours on it.  No tear down on second prop strike....
3000 hours total time, ~35 on engine now.
 
 

So only 15 hours on it since the prop strike? How do you feel about being a test pilot?


Tom

[jaylw314]

30 minutes ago, south said:

Have reviewed the logs.  All logs available...gear up in 2015 with prop strike.  All repairs and engine overhaul (Jan 2016) very well documented.  Another gear up in 2017, prop strike, engine only had 20 hours on it.  No tear down on second prop strike, the crank was dialed and the prop strike inspection completed (all documented).  Rest of the logs show regular maintenance and a few repairs (standard annual verbiage, oil changes, fuel pump, instrument upgrades, etc.).

I dont see anything on tanks being sealed or even mentioned.

I can certainly afford to go see it, its the time I dont have...and while I have been around several airplanes, 0 time in Mooney's, so outside of avionics performance and cosmetics not sure my opinion after a short test flight would make much difference.  

The plane is priced ~$40k, my offer was going to be in the 35-36 range, based on damage history and adsb, all dependent on MSC pre-buy results (I spoke to the MSC and for a few extra $$ would give the engine a good look knowing the history).

3000 hours total time, ~35 on engine now.

I was in a similar boat to you--no time to see a candidate plane, and not enough knowledge about them anyway.

I had a friend who happened to be an IA that I paid to go out and eyeball the airplane.  I still had a pre-buy done at a regional Mooney Service Center, and paid my friend to fly it from Texas back to Oregon.  In the end, I ended up paying him a couple thousand for his time and effort, and it was well worth the peace of mind buying a plane sight unseen.  

If you know someone you trust enough to help, think about it.

[Yetti]

1 hour ago, south said:

 All repairs and engine overhaul (Jan 2016) very well documented.  Another gear up in 2017, prop strike, engine only had 20 hours on it.  No tear down on second prop strike, the crank was dialed and the prop strike inspection completed (all documented). 

 

 

Nope you want the crank to be NDT.   Just because it did not get bent, does not mean it did not get cracked.  It could also have jacked the bearings or the case.   Price it with an engine overhaul.  Maybe if it had 200 hours on it since then, but it does not have them.

[south]

Thanks all.

appreciate all the insight.  the experience here is awesome and thanks for being willing to share.

[kortopates]

A prop strike that wasn't fully inspected would have most people either passing or at least negotiate the cost down to include an engine IRAN and expect ~ 3 month down time.

Although legally a shop can return to service an engine after a prop strike without a tear down based on complying only with the legally required  AD 2004-10-14 (which is largely based on complying with SB475C). But recognize Lycoming's recommendations to complete a full IRAN  per the above referenced Lyc  SB533C. The owner chose not to comply since it's optional for a part 91 operator, its only legally binding for commercial operators. Yet no insurance company would refuse to comply with it ; after all we've all seen anecdotal evidence of crank failures after a prop strike that wasn't properly inspected. Some failures have occurred shortly after and others haven't till many years after.   

Yet we can only speculate why the owner didn't comply. Did he lose his insurance after the first episode and thus didn't have the money being self insured? Or did he purposely not file a claim since he would expect to not be able to get insurance again after 2 prop strikes or claims in such a short period.

But the only remaining question that really matters to you, is do you want to roll dice and fly a prop strike engine that hasn't properly been inspected. It could be a ticking time bomb putting not just you at risk you, but your family and other unsuspecting people. If something does happen down the road, expect the first thing the lawyers will notice that the prop strike in the logs wasn't fully inspected against the advice of the manufacturer and best practices in the industry regardless of whether or not it had anything to do with the mishap that got them involved.

Here is an article that explores this more: https://www.avweb.com/news/features/The-Prop-StrikeSudden-Stop-222325-1.html 

  

[Yetti]

Was the crank replaced on the first prop strike?   two prop strikes on the same crank?