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Seeking advice on my first Pre-J Mooney


NewMooneyOwner

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Hello Everyone,

 

I live in Savannah, GA area, and I will be very close to finish my PPL (in about a month at most). After getting my PPL, I would like to have my own airplane. I have been heard a lot of good things (also some not very good things - more on the cost of maintenance side) of Mooneys. However, I am still very interested in owning a Mooney aircraft. Here is a list of questions I have. I really appreciate if someone ask answer any of these questions? My budget is less than 40,000, and I would like to keep the purchase value under 35k. I am looking at M20C, but ok with other modesl like G (since, 10 knots speed differential is not a big deal for me). Here is one of the airplane I found nearby, I also appreciate if you guys can give me some opinions about this plane ( https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20G+STATESMAN&listing_id=2315646&s-type=aircraft )

1. Right now, I used piper warrior to do my PPL training. How long will it take for me to transition from a warrior to a M20C/G). Should I worry about constant speed prop / rectractable gear? I only have 50 hours now, and I probably have another 5-10 hours after the completion of my license

2. how much does it cost to do the annual for a M20C/G?

3. Is there any reputable shop / instructor near Savannah, GA you guys recommend to do my transitioning training, pre-buy inspection, and annual?

I also welcome for any other advice anyone have. Thanks a lot.

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18 minutes ago, NewMooneyOwner said:

1. Right now, I used piper warrior to do my PPL training. How long will it take for me to transition from a warrior to a M20C/G). Should I worry about constant speed prop / rectractable gear? I only have 50 hours now, and I probably have another 5-10 hours after the completion of my license

- As the Australians say, "how long is a piece of string" in other words "it depends." Everyone is different. But I wouldn't be afraid of it. If it takes you 10 hours, it will be 10 hours very well spent. So yes, do it, you'll love flying a Mooney.

2. how much does it cost to do the annual for a M20C/G?

- Again, almost no way to tell. We've heard of owner assisted annuals as low as about $700 and other annuals that run over $10K. But it's the same for any airplane. Get a very detailed and thorough pre-buy inspection from a Mooney experienced shop and you'll be a long way toward the low end of that annual cost.

3. Is there any reputable shop / instructor near Savannah, GA you guys recommend to do my transitioning training, pre-buy inspection, and annual?

- I can't speak to the shop, but I'll PM you the contact info for a CFI in Charleston who owns and flies a Mooney. If he can't do it, he'll know someone who can and will likely know of a good shop as well.

I also welcome for any other advice anyone have. Thanks a lot.

 

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Have $10K in the bank after you purchase the plane.  Learn to land in someone elses plane.   If you can learn to fly, adding the prop control is no big deal.  Check your gear 4 times before landing,    Annual $1000 - 5000.  might be able to shave some off if you can turn a screw driver.   You can be safe in 10-15 hours it took me about 90 hours to be good.

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1 hour ago, NewMooneyOwner said:

2. how much does it cost to do the annual for a M20C/G?

My annual in 2017 was $630 but 2018 was $900 or so. I had spark plugs and intake filter replaced then. However, neither of them included an oil change and I did open/close all the numerous inspection panels myself. My mechanic told me that if an owner wants to drop off the airplane and pick it up completed, his flat fee for a Mooney is is $1,200. Including the oil and all the minor MX, you're not going to be under $1100 per year, it's just a given, sorry.

Don't forget the reserve for major maintenance. My hangar mate has a G, one day he left for an annual and came back 3 months later with a whole new engine. They found metal and it turned out rockers were flaking. I think previous shop had all rocker arms installed backwards or something. I paid $48k and he paid $38k for about the same airplane. I was so jealous right until that story.

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Welcome to MS.

The questions you ask indicate that you have been studying in some of the areas you need to be BEFORE you buy.

  • $35,000 will narrow your selection to planes with one or more issues: the engine will be high time, the avionics will be 20 or more years old, the P&I are original and look it, or the plane has not flown much in the last year or more - perhaps out of annual. Such planes often turn out to be money pits. You might find you'll need to bump that budget in today's market. Or consider buying a $60k plane with a partner.
  • The annual inspection is often confused with and mixed with maintenance.  The required inspection might cost under $1000 if you have a shop that will let you remove inspection panels and do other grunt work that saves him time. Without your help a short body should not cost more than about $2000.
  • Maintenance is a more complex cost to estimate. Some items like tires and batteries are fairly predictable. Other stuff breaks and on 50 year old planes there are a lot of relatively expensive components that will break and wear out. If non-airworthiness items have been deferred for years a new owner very well may have some $10,000 "annuals" of which $8000 is not the inspection but worn out gear pucks, engine mounts, brakes, baffle seals as well as vacuum pumps, generator/alternators, starters, mags, spark plugs fuel pumps, etc that decide to roll over on your watch. Then there's fuel tank leaks.   
  • A key feature of a PPI would be to try to ascertain whether the PO has repaired or replaced when needed or used baling wire and duct tape to get by. Choose the PPI inspector well.

Now the good news. The Mooney, which ever one you get, will be so fast, so fun to fly, and so economical that you will wonder why anyone flies anything else. 

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Mooney publishes a 100-hr / annual checklist; I have a copy somewhere. My [new] IA quoted 18-20 hours to do it, and owner assistance isn't allowed. This is a first for me in 12 years of ownership, and I'm frustrated.

Assisting with the annual does three things:  1) it lets you learn how it is made and how the various parts work / work together; 2) you are right there to make decisions about fixing something now or letting it wait til later, and you know the condition of things and what to watch for between annuals; 3) it can save you a little money in return for a large amount of time and screwdriving.

Good luck, and happy hunting!

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Thanks for all the quick replies within such a short amount of time. Can anyone of you look at this Mooney to give me some opinion? I am really short on budget, just cannot afford 50-60k Mooney. This one is priced out around 35k, and fits within my budget really well. Anything particular I need to be aware of if I really wanna look into this plane? Thanks.

 

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20G+STATESMAN&listing_id=2315646&s-type=aircraft

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1 hour ago, Hank said:

Mooney publishes a 100-hr / annual checklist; I have a copy somewhere. My [new] IA quoted 18-20 hours to do it, and owner assistance isn't allowed. This is a first for me in 12 years of ownership, and I'm frustrated.

Assisting with the annual does three things:  1) it lets you learn how it is made and how the various parts work / work together; 2) you are right there to make decisions about fixing something now or letting it wait til later, and you know the condition of things and what to watch for between annuals; 3) it can save you a little money in return for a large amount of time and screwdriving.

Good luck, and happy hunting!

Here it is.

100_Hour_Annual2007.pdf

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10 minutes ago, NewMooneyOwner said:

Thanks for all the quick replies within such a short amount of time. Can anyone of you look at this Mooney to give me some opinion? I am really short on budget, just cannot afford 50-60k Mooney. This one is priced out around 35k, and fits within my budget really well. Anything particular I need to be aware of if I really wanna look into this plane? Thanks.

 

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20G+STATESMAN&listing_id=2315646&s-type=aircraft

It might be fine if the tanks are not leaking and there's no corrosion to spar or cage structure. It has been parked outside for the last 4 years - not good. It appears to have been flown regularly and Triad is a good engine shop. The panel is very old and you'd need to do ADS-B this year.  

It might be worth what they're asking if there are no PPI surprises but since that's your budget I'd want to know that if a 5 or 10 thousand dollar issue pops up in the first year that it would not mean grounding the plane for lack of funds. 

I assume you've planned for insurance, hangar - highly recommended - and operating costs which are easy to nail down. 

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A few random thoughts on that specific plane.

Pros: Autopilot, new interior (if you're into that), engine monitor, 300 hrs in last 3 years, cowl speed mod

Cons: Panel layout, avionics, paint (if you're into that), no window speed mod, not hangared during last 4 years

Unknowns: engine time = prop time (typically means prop strike)

Price: Get Jimmy Garrison's Mooney value guide (search Mooney Space for it)

Safety: Has shoulder belts (+), get rid of that worthless CO dot and get a proper detector!

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Do you need fancy instruments?  What is the mission you plan to accomplish with the bird? Blue sky flying around NC/SC/GA/FL (we really do have lots of days for that - I live near Charlotte)? Continued training for IFR? Do you mind paint in that condition?

Interior looks nice but the panel  dated and the paint will be a minimum of 10k to replace.  That's not a dealbreaker for me - I fly Airbus for a living but don't need my Mooney panel to look like one.  This one looks like it could be a reasonable VFR machine to me and it does have plenty of time left on the engine, if it's not all crudded up from sitting for the past several years.  I just had mine rebuilt by Triad, so I consider that a positive as far as the engine goes, again, assuming it hasn't sat for the past 3 years. Mine's a C with manual gear also.

In my quick scan I don't see anything about bladders or a reseal of the fuel tanks - the reseal is another item that many guys face that is no small investment, but a required one when the time comes.  Mine has bladders.

A good prebuy inspection should be something you plan on obtaining before getting emotionally serious about the plane.  I always recommend AGL Aviation, in Morganton, NC - not too far of a flight - maybe a couple of hours - and they worked hard a few years back to become an authorized Mooney Service Center. They've maintained mine since I've owned it and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.  Good luck, keep reading and keep us posted.

Patrick

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Johnnybgoode said:

Do you need fancy instruments?  What is the mission you plan to accomplish with the bird? Blue sky flying around NC/SC/GA/FL (we really do have lots of days for that - I live near Charlotte)? Continued training for IFR? Do you mind paint in that condition?

Interior looks nice but the panel  dated and the paint will be a minimum of 10k to replace.  That's not a dealbreaker for me - I fly Airbus for a living but don't need my Mooney panel to look like one.  This one looks like it could be a reasonable VFR machine to me and it does have plenty of time left on the engine, if it's not all crudded up from sitting for the past several years.  I just had mine rebuilt by Triad, so I consider that a positive as far as the engine goes, again, assuming it hasn't sat for the past 3 years. Mine's a C with manual gear also.

In my quick scan I don't see anything about bladders or a reseal of the fuel tanks - the reseal is another item that many guys face that is no small investment, but a required one when the time comes.  Mine has bladders.

A good prebuy inspection should be something you plan on obtaining before getting emotionally serious about the plane.  I always recommend AGL Aviation, in Morganton, NC - not too far of a flight - maybe a couple of hours - and they worked hard a few years back to become an authorized Mooney Service Center. They've maintained mine since I've owned it and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.  Good luck, keep reading and keep us posted.

Patrick

 

 

Patrick, thanks for the advice, I do not need fancy instro right now, and I plan to put a G5 on it eventually (maybe couple of months after getting the plane, other than that, I am ok with Basic VFR flying). Yes,  my most mission will be FL,ATL, Occaisonally TX, North East)  I really do not mind about paint unless there is no hail/damage/corrosion. However, is there any lower cost option to make it look a little bit nice? I would not mind spending 1 or 2k on that. What do you think a good price on this bird?

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55 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

It might be fine if the tanks are not leaking and there's no corrosion to spar or cage structure. It has been parked outside for the last 4 years - not good. It appears to have been flown regularly and Triad is a good engine shop. The panel is very old and you'd need to do ADS-B this year.  

It might be worth what they're asking if there are no PPI surprises but since that's your budget I'd want to know that if a 5 or 10 thousand dollar issue pops up in the first year that it would not mean grounding the plane for lack of funds. 

I assume you've planned for insurance, hangar - highly recommended - and operating costs which are easy to nail down. 

Hi Bob, thanks for the quick reply. I understood that the paint is not in good condition now. I just recently got a hangar space in a nearby airport after almost 8 months waitling list (about 45-50min drive about 160/month) Do you think this plane is worth to be hangered or tied down should be fine? I can always tie down to an airport which is only 10-15min driving distance.

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We have seen a number of these requests to help new potential owners provide an assessment. Buying the plane at $35k isn't the issue. Finding the funds to operate the plane is where you need to be concerned. If your budget is $35k and have no additional funds to support the operating costs, you will be here a month or two after you purchased with a story of how painful ownership is. We have seen it too many times where a person buys a plane and then is contending with a $7k fuel tank reseal, unexpected cylinder replacement for $3k or some other expense that totals up to thousands. 

I have owned my F for 28 years. The expenses are not for the weak of wallet. Depending on the amount of flying you will be doing, you can expect to see between $15k and $25k a year in expenses. I am averaging in the mid 20k range and this is a plane that is in excellent condition. The only way around it is to cheap on the needed items or steal fuel (I have locking gas caps so go elsewhere :) ).

I am not here to squash a dream but to provide reality to the situation. As Bob B pointed out above, there are a number of costs that you really need to understand before you make a commitment on your own. If your budget looks like our nation debt, then maybe picking up a partner is the way to go.

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If this Mooney can pass a good pre-buy inspection then I like it. But there are so many things that could go wrong or could be wrong. If the $35K is everything you've got, I wouldn't spend it all on the plane. What is your monthly/yearly budget for flying, maintenance, upgrades, upkeep, etc?

Tanks start leaking - $7k for a full strip and reseal of both thanks.
Landing gear pucks, truss, ect. - $1500 to $5K
Engine corrosion, cam, valves, etc. - $25K

I actually like that it needs paint. I'd rather buy it and fly it the way it is rather than pay an additional $10K for someone else paint scheme.

It's not unusual to spend 10% of the purchase price on the first annual just taking care of deferred maintenance. @Raptor05121 can tell you a lot about buying a cheap Mooney and bringing it up to flying condition. 

This one seems to be in flying condition right now. But your best protection would be a good pre-buy inspection. That will cost $2000 or so.

 

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4 minutes ago, NewMooneyOwner said:

Patrick, thanks for the advice, I do not need fancy instro right now, and I plan to put a G5 on it eventually (maybe couple of months after getting the plane, other than that, I am ok with Basic VFR flying). Yes,  my most mission will be FL,ATL, Occaisonally TX, North East)  I really do not mind about paint unless there is no hail/damage/corrosion. However, is there any lower cost option to make it look a little bit nice? I would not mind spending 1 or 2k on that. What do you think a good price on this bird?

As mentioned, find a copy of Jimmy Garrison's pricing guide and total it up. 

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2 minutes ago, NewMooneyOwner said:

Hi Bob, thanks for the quick reply. I understood that the paint is not in good condition now. I just recently got a hangar space in a nearby airport after almost 8 months waitling list (about 45-50min drive about 160/month) Do you think this plane is worth to be hangered or tied down should be fine? I can always tie down to an airport which is only 10-15min driving distance.

If you are missing a fair amount of paint, sitting outside is not a good idea, especially if you are based in an area like Florida.

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3 minutes ago, Marauder said:

We have seen a number of these requests to help new potential owners provide an assessment. Buying the plane at $35k isn't the issue. Finding the funds to operate the plane is where you need to be concerned. If your budget is $35k and have no additional funds to support the operating costs, you will be here a month or two after you purchased with a story of how painful ownership is. We have seen it too many times where a person buys a plane and then is contending with a $7k fuel tank reseal, unexpected cylinder replacement for $3k or some other expense that totals up to thousands. 

I have owned my F for 28 years. The expenses are not for the weak of wallet. Depending on the amount of flying you will be doing, you can expect to see between $15k and $25k a year in expenses. I am averaging in the mid 20k range and this is a plane that is in excellent condition. The only way around it is to cheap on the needed items or steal fuel (I have locking gas caps so go elsewhere :) ).

I am not here to squash a dream but to provide reality to the situation. As Bob B pointed out above, there are a number of costs that you really need to understand before you make a commitment on your own. If your budget looks like our nation debt, then maybe picking up a partner is the way to go.

I do have the extra fund to use just in case but I prefer to buy an aircraft needs minimum fix. If that did not work out, my best appraoch is to pay whatever it takes to get it fly safely. Thanks for the advice though. That is the reason why I narrowed down my search to a/c under 35k. I was originially thinking about 50-60k, but after adding all these potential numbers, it really leaves myself very little margin for error.

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4 minutes ago, NewMooneyOwner said:

I do have the extra fund to use just in case but I prefer to buy an aircraft needs minimum fix. If that did not work out, my best appraoch is to pay whatever it takes to get it fly safely. Thanks for the advice though. That is the reason why I narrowed down my search to a/c under 35k. I was originially thinking about 50-60k, but after adding all these potential numbers, it really leaves myself very little margin for error.

Good plan.

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1 minute ago, NewMooneyOwner said:

I do have the extra fund to use just in case but I prefer to buy an aircraft needs minimum fix. If that did not work out, my best appraoch is to pay whatever it takes to get it fly safely. Thanks for the advice though. That is the reason why I narrowed down my search to a/c under 35k. I was originially thinking about 50-60k, but after adding all these potential numbers, it really leaves myself very little margin for error.

I would proceed cautiously on any plane. You never know what views the owner has on maintenance. And if a lot of it was deferred, it can come back to bite you. If you are able, ask questions of the owner for their views on maintenance. What kind of things they have done to the plane? It will give you a sense whether this plane was used for building time or the owner was caring for it.

I'm a progressive maintenance owner. I like to fix things before they break. Not that infantile mortality of a new part happens, but I would rather replace something before it fails. I guess owning a plane as long as I have, getting stranded in noman's land with a busted airplane will change your perspective on things.

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18 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

It's not unusual to spend 10% of the purchase price on the first annual just taking care of deferred maintenance.

My plane was in a similar price range as this one and my first annual was 30% of the purchase price, including maintenance items.  Just know what you may be getting into.

20 minutes ago, NewMooneyOwner said:

Do you think this plane is worth to be hangered or tied down should be fine?

If it's worth buying, it's worth putting in a hangar.  Planes are not meant to be stored outside.

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Everyone has covered all the basics.  I haven't been in the market lately, but my SOTP impression is that prices are going up on these vintage planes.  I flew VFR for a year or two and then decided I wanted my instrument rating.  If you stay VFR, this plane will be fine.  If you decide to transition into an IR, you will want a certified GPS, and ADSB capabilities.  

I guess you already know, but the G model gives up a few knots to the other models due to the weight/HP ratio.  You do get some extra room for the back seat passengers, though.

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My plane was initially around 25k - still needs paint, but not as bad as this one.  I got away with limited unplanned expenses (I had planned for some minor fixes) for the first few years and then had to bite the 25k overhaul bullet.  At my entry price I had room to do that - it's the unexpected that ruins your day.  A basic annual (at a MSC) is right about 1500, give or take - my first couple were within 500 of that.  Then I needed about 1600 worth of work for the cowl closure (optional) and new motor mounts (not optional).  Last year it was landing gear donuts. Then I had the overhaul this past year.  All have been reasonable work required to bring an underutilized plane back to where I want it to be and I now have a plane that still needs a paint job but is in significantly better shape than it was at time of purchase. Then there is ADSB, which I completed earlier this year.  No getting around that one either.

The real question many owners fail to ask is what is the expected ownership timeframe?  Spreading these costs over the next 15 or 20 years of ownership makes them pretty bearable.  Trying to get my money back out of the plane next week would keep me up at night.  I plan to have mine for quite awhile and am making it the way I want it.  Next is paint, but not on the immediate horizon.  It is hangared, along with my RV4, and I agree with the above sentiment that planes should be in hangars, especially near the coast.

PM me if you're ever over around CLT and we'll go for a ride - always looking for excuses to use that overhauled engine!  I've flown with the Guard guys out of Savannah several times - great bunch!

Good luck!

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