Thoughts on N9240M at All American Aircraft. 1966 M20E

[David_H]

3 hours ago, JW3 said:

Not too concerned with backseats. 

 

I agree, a little higher price is okay if better service is provided. 

Perhaps they forgot to list that the plane comes with some very attractive passengers that comfortably fit in the backseat of a short-body Mooney.... or one Marauder girl, sitting sideways. Useful load could become a concern though.

That "option" would likely drive maintenance costs through the roof.

Edited February 22, 2019 by David_H

[ArtVandelay]

If it’s a factory overhaul I would give $29,000....for a field overhaul, no way.. Jewell can do it for 15k, and this might not even be that good..

Is the E engine that much different than the Js?


Tom

[KSMooniac]

Is the E engine that much different than the Js?

 

 

Tom

The original J engine has the Siamese/dual mag , but later models or retrofits can have two mags. The main difference is the J engine has a counterweighted crank shaft and potentially smoother operation. J has a better intake and baffling system, although those are Mooney airframe parts and not engine parts.

 

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[Bryan]

I like the pockets everywhere on this interior.

[ArtVandelay]

The original J engine has the Siamese/dual mag , but later models or retrofits can have two mags. The main difference is the J engine has a counterweighted crank shaft and potentially smoother operation. J has a better intake and baffling system, although those are Mooney airframe parts and not engine parts. 

What about the angle valves or anything that would make it more expensive to overhaul? Because you can’t overhaul it for $15k.


Tom

[MBDiagMan]

Plane seems like a good one if a short body accomplishes yourmission.  The price seems high at first glance, but Mooney prices are on the rise, so it could be that the price is righ5 on the money.

[KSMooniac]

The E/F engines are also angle valves, so those jugs are expensive. They can be overhauled, though, for less than the cost of new jugs. I did that with my field overhaul, along with flow-matching, precision balancing, etc that you don't get from the factory.

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[M20F]

16 hours ago, jetdriven said:

If it’s a factory overhaul I would give $29,000....for a field overhaul, no way.. Jewell can do it for 15k, and this might not even be that good..

Insufficient information really in this thread to price the overhaul.  If it got 4 new cylinders, new cam, accessories, etc. then the $29k price point looks better. If it was just taken apart and put back together then closer to $15.  

 

[Pete M]

Like the previous poster mentioned, what was done at overhaul, new cam and lyc cylinders? Old cam and been sitting since OH? Run...

Additionally, no mention of tank reseal...10 or 15k...needs paint...10k...no modern instrument panel makes the 430 less valuable for ifr flying or to train in. Maybe a steal at 55...at 70, not so much. I also prefer a newer airframe. In '66 they were still working out some airframe bugs. You could also buy privately for 6 or 8k less. Thats a couple of g5's if everything else is ship shape.

[gsxrpilot]

3 hours ago, Pete M said:

Like the previous poster mentioned, what was done at overhaul, new cam and lyc cylinders? Old cam and been sitting since OH? Run...

Additionally, no mention of tank reseal...10 or 15k...needs paint...10k...no modern instrument panel makes the 430 less valuable for ifr flying or to train in. Maybe a steal at 55...at 70, not so much. I also prefer a newer airframe. In '66 they were still working out some airframe bugs. You could also buy privately for 6 or 8k less. Thats a couple of g5's if everything else is ship shape.

I can't understand why you're even weighing in on airplanes you obviously know nothing about and are by your own admission, not interested in? Your numbers are way off and likely prejudiced by your preference for the newer, long body Mooneys.

Do you even own a Mooney? Have you bought and sold Mooneys before?

As just one example. Fuel tanks get resealed all the time, the price is $7K for standard tanks on a short body.

[KLRDMD]

3 hours ago, Pete M said:

In '66 they were still working out some airframe bugs.

1966 was arguably the best year for the "C" and 'E" model Mooneys. Someone knows not of which he speaks.

[Andy95W]

22 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

1966 was arguably the best year for the "C" and 'E" model Mooneys. Someone knows not of which he speaks.

Bill Wheat thought so- he called the 65-67 models the best that came out of the factory. 

I agree, Ken- someone knows not of what he speaks. 

[M20F]

17 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Bill Wheat thought so- he called the 65-67 models the best that came out of the factory. 

I agree, Ken- someone knows not of what he speaks. 

67 F is the best!

[Pete M]

Owned and restored a '64 E. A complete strip and reseal costs 7k from one of the shops that specialize in them? Boy, prices sure have come down. Unless of course you're talking about a patch job in which case it'll be 7k every year as the leaks spring up. Been there, done that. I've had bill wheat on the phone many times. A 67f is not a 65 e. The 65 had eyelets to allow room for the cylinder heads because the cowl lacked clearance on the 64...a patch instead of dealing with the problem. Try fitting an overhauled exhaust on one. That is but one issue. Ya wanna talk prop governors? I always thought the twisted wing f was a cool idea...cant remember what year that was....'67, '68? The '64 E was the fastest short body made. Mine did 163 true at about 10,500 ft. by the time I was done with it. No speed mods. I had the old style ailerons. Best if you can get one with the newer style trailing edges...much better feel in roll. I also had the generator instead of an alternator. Bulltproof but heavy and didnt provide good current at idle. Had it overhauled at the local tractor shop:) No pc on my '64...could've used that as I regularly flew it across the continent. I learned to fly and spent years in a place where all they flew were mooneys. More mooneys there than in kerrville...and yeah, spent a great deal of time in that area as well. Some short body or 1st gen models were unique like the twisted wing f but all things being equal I think Mike Bushes advice is benificial. Buy the latest model airframe you can afford. Everything I mentioned in my post I experienced first hand. It ain't some shit I just read on the internet. BTW, Ive flow every model Mooney made from the m20b through the 252 and most of the different years. Ya ever been in a mooney mustang?

[M20F]

4 minutes ago, Pete M said:

Mine did 163 true at about 10,500 ft. by the time I was done with it. No speed mods. 

Passing through 10,500 for 5,000.....

[neilpilot]

 

43 minutes ago, M20F said:

51 minutes ago, Pete M said:

Mine did 163 true at about 10,500 ft. by the time I was done with it. No speed mods. 

Passing through 10,500 for 5,000.....

mph

[Pete M]

3 hours ago, M20F said:

Passing through 10,500 for 5,000.....

Ok, stepped into that. Very funny:) 4 way gps runs. 23", 2550rpm at about 8500ft then 21", 2550rpm at about 10,500ft. Both runs avg 162.75 knots. Newly oh'd motor, new cam, new lyc cylinders, new exhaust, new heavy hub prop, slick mags, lightweight starter, new sanded primer paint, ailerons rigged at 0dg. I spent a lot of time and money on that plane.

Edited February 24, 2019 by Pete M

[kpaul]

3 hours ago, Pete M said:

Owned and restored a '64 E

 

3 hours ago, Pete M said:

No speed mods

 

10 minutes ago, Pete M said:

Both runs avg 162.75 knots.

Maybe mph but not knots.  That is faster than the E's with every 201 mod.

[gsxrpilot]

4 hours ago, Pete M said:

Owned and restored a '64 E. A complete strip and reseal costs 7k from one of the shops that specialize in them? Boy, prices sure have come down. Unless of course you're talking about a patch job in which case it'll be 7k every year as the leaks spring up. Been there, done that. I've had bill wheat on the phone many times. A 67f is not a 65 e. The 65 had eyelets to allow room for the cylinder heads because the cowl lacked clearance on the 64...a patch instead of dealing with the problem. Try fitting an overhauled exhaust on one. That is but one issue. Ya wanna talk prop governors? I always thought the twisted wing f was a cool idea...cant remember what year that was....'67, '68? The '64 E was the fastest short body made. Mine did 163 true at about 10,500 ft. by the time I was done with it. No speed mods. I had the old style ailerons. Best if you can get one with the newer style trailing edges...much better feel in roll. I also had the generator instead of an alternator. Bulltproof but heavy and didnt provide good current at idle. Had it overhauled at the local tractor shop:) No pc on my '64...could've used that as I regularly flew it across the continent. I learned to fly and spent years in a place where all they flew were mooneys. More mooneys there than in kerrville...and yeah, spent a great deal of time in that area as well. Some short body or 1st gen models were unique like the twisted wing f but all things being equal I think Mike Bushes advice is benificial. Buy the latest model airframe you can afford. Everything I mentioned in my post I experienced first hand. It ain't some shit I just read on the internet. BTW, Ive flow every model Mooney made from the m20b through the 252 and most of the different years. Ya ever been in a mooney mustang?

Welcome to the 21st century. A few things have changed. One being the market for vintage Mooneys. Markets change year to year and month to month. Memories from years and flights gone by are less than reliable. 

And yes, $7000 and change will buy you a full strip and reseal for both tanks from any one of the three shops in the country that specialize in resealing Mooney tanks.

[Pete M]

2 hours ago, kpaul said:

 

 

Maybe mph but not knots.  That is faster than the E's with every 201 mod.

It may be faster than some. It was in knots. Thats what my gps reads, not mph. I think there was a few reasons for it. Like I said, the 64 e was the fastest short body due to the narrow cowl mostly. Was it also the lightest? Maybe. Of course the new overhaul and cylinders, paper air filter. The new cam was an eci if i remember correctly. Might have been more aggressive than stock. Not sure if the new heavy hub hartzel made a difference. The paint was very smooth. I had no wing walk. I had the skins over the  radio panel remade into a single piece of skin because of the way the 3 piece ones leaked water into the radios. The step retracted and was always up, all extraneous antennas were removed. We installed new engine mounts so that was perfect. It did have flap gap seals and i did set the flaps to be sure they werent hanging in the breeze. After the renovation it was much lighter up front. I could feel a big change in handling in the flare so i'm sure we moved the cg back quite a bit. The ailerons were the old pinched trailing edge type and I made sure they were set at zero dg so they produced less drag than one say set at 2dg. I dont remember what year they changed to the newer ones and if that changed the drag any. I may have even reflexed them 1/2 a degree. It was a fast airplane. On a cool day it would come up off the deck at 1400 ft/min. I have no doubt that if I got my hands on a nice straight 64 E i could get more out of it today. There's an early j for sale with 10 to 1 pistons advertised as getting 168 knots. I believe it given my experience.  Oh, btw, I just looked it up. 163 knots at 10k is the book number. So I was getting book. Not that hard to believe.

 

Edited February 24, 2019 by Pete M

[Pete M]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

Welcome to the 21st century. A few things have changed. One being the market for vintage Mooneys. Markets change year to year and month to month. Memories from years and flights gone by are less than reliable. 

 

Nothings changed. Little airplane prices follow the stock market. You'd think they'd track wages but they don't. Bear market, supply goes up and prices come down. Same same. Been watching the mooney market for 17 years. Memories from years and flights gone by, huh? I spent 400 hours in piston singles in just the last 6 months. You?

[BKlott]

13 hours ago, M20F said:

Insufficient information really in this thread to price the overhaul.  If it got 4 new cylinders, new cam, accessories, etc. then the $29k price point looks better. If it was just taken apart and put back together then closer to $15.  

 

Excellent points! Additionally, was the engine mount sent out for inspection/repair? What accessories were replaced or overhauled? Was the overhaul done to “new limits” or just to “service limits”?

[Herlihy Brother]

On 2/23/2019 at 4:12 PM, kpaul said:

 

 

Maybe mph but not knots.  That is faster than the E's with every 201 mod.

sorry, not sorry, my 64 e runs 155 ktas all day long, all 201 speed mods.  155 knots tas is only  a paltry177mph tas.   otoh, 162.5 MPH tas (op claims 162.5 ktas) is a super slow e and would be a pretty lame x country plane considering how cramped and lightweight and thirsty the m20e is.   My friend bought and flew then   sold two e's, all factory original, ran 160+ ktas both, watched him pull away from me at 7,500', even though I had all speed mods and 2700 hours on my engine.  If you are only getting 141ktas in an e  then something is wrong...Maybe too many antennas or rigging or you didnt latch your door or retract your step etc.  That there is c and overloaded f model territory.

sad irony that a stock e, 700smoh,  bought on trade a plane for $35k, outruns a fully modded e that I babied for 20+ years, but that is what it is.

 

If you want 170ktas on 12 gph and lots of room, v35.