JW3 Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 Good morning everyone, I’m looking for thoughts and opinions on this aircraft. https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/26983825/1966-mooney-m20e-super-21 Seems pretty good. Maybe not a screaming deal, but at least a good starting point? This would be my first aircraft purchase, so I’m currently in the research phase. Taking all advice and tips I can. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_H Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 The engine time is low... how much time has passed since OH would be a factor. The low engine time looks to be the only item that would motivate the price. What in particular do you have questions about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 They don’t deal much if at all on price but they stand behind their word. I bought my F from them with a annual from Maxwell and they cover all the airworthy ($1500 up tick on price). That also included hanging a new prop that didn’t work exactly as intended but Don expedited the solution and Jimmy paid for it (true to his word $5k hung). You will pay a small premium from them but in my opinion it is worth it. That premium is minimal compared to what you will eventually invest in the plane. Looks decent to me ADS-B, WAAS, low time engine, and auto pilot. Suffice to for just about any mission. I will say (and the C/E owners will come out of their delusional caves or disagree) the back seat sucks. If you only intend to carry 2 (or 4 for very short distances) the E is the rocket ship. Good luck on your search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JW3 Posted February 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 Field overhaul 2 years ago. I guess my main question is overall price (assuming it’s a good, healthy aircraft with no major issues). I think I already know the answer. It’s priced about right. I’m new to Mooney’s (and aircraft ownership) and just checking with more experienced people. Thanks for your reply David. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JW3 Posted February 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 5 minutes ago, M20F said: They don’t deal much if at all on price but they stand behind their word. I bought my F from them with a annual from Maxwell and they cover all the airworthy ($1500 up tick on price). That also included hanging a new prop that didn’t work exactly as intended but Don expedited the solution and Jimmy paid for it (true to his word $5k hung). You will pay a small premium from them but in my opinion it is worth it. That premium is minimal compared to what you will eventually invest in the plane. Looks decent to me ADS-B, WAAS, low time engine, and auto pilot. Suffice to for just about any mission. I will say (and the C/E owners will come out of their delusional caves or disagree) the back seat sucks. If you only intend to carry 2 (or 4 for very short distances) the E is the rocket ship. Good luck on your search. Thank you for the help. Not too concerned with backseats. I agree, a little higher price is okay if better service is provided. Autopilot and 430w caught my attention, too. Seems to have good maintenance history, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_H Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 7 minutes ago, JW3 said: It’s priced about right. It would be interested to know how you came to that conclusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JW3 Posted February 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 Definitely not scientific research. Just looking at similar E models all over the Internet. Anywhere from $52k or so and up. Some have higher time engines, or no WAAS gps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMuncy Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 All American, Jimmy and David, know Mooneys, and Mooney values. Generally they will price than very close to right. And they are straight shooters. (Disclaimer; I consider the both my friends, after I bought my plane through them in 2000.) So, without any knowledge of this plane, you would be unlikely to go wrong buying from them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_H Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 I certainly don't want to offend anyone... but I can't envision this plane with the installed equipment going for $70K. I'm not saying AA isn't a good outfit at all. That said, I can't stretch my imagination far enough to come to that price. I'd be curious to see where this plane falls in the "value guide." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m20kmooney Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, JW3 said: I’m looking for thoughts and opinions on this aircraft. Price is high imo. The equipment is decent but not that great to justify the high asking price. It’s still a 53 year old airframe! You're paying a premium for the middle man. Have you shopped around? It’s good education to compare some that are for sale privately by owners. https://www.aerotrader.com/listing/1981-Mooney-M20J-5005302379 Edited February 22, 2019 by m20kmooney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMuncy Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 I need to correct my previous post a little. It depends some on whether the plane belongs to AA, or whether they are brokering it. If theirs, they are not likely to come off their price too much. If brokered, it will depend on the seller. AA will almost certainly have advised the owner as to what it is likely to sell for, but ultimately it will be up to him as to what he will sell for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmac Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 I believe @Sethg52000 looked at this aircraft in person when he was looking to buy last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 I think the going rate for sales commission is about 6% which would be $4000. Not hard to see where that would be worth it if any issues came up, particularly to a first time plane and first time Mooney buyer. It is obvious the market for planes in this price range has strengthen substantially is the past 6 months or longer. We've had quite a few stories here of guys who missed out on a plane that they just learned about even if they didn't hesitate. There's no shortage of vintage planes that are not as ready to go as this one. Engines are expensive. ADS-B is on us and avionics shops are busy. It's WAASThe Jaeger interior is a plus. It has an autopilot even if it's just a Brittain. Bottom line, I gotta love it. Makes my E look that much more valuable. Don't tell the tax collector. Or my wife. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 I'm not a fan of the Accutrax autopilot, but this one even has altitude hold. I like the 430W. It's missing shoulder belts... which would be a deal breaker for me, but they could get installed during a pre-buy. The values of good vintage Mooneys is up. Which is good for all of us. I'll echo what @DonMuncy said, airplanes rarely sit in the AllAmerican hangar. They price them to move and therefore don't have to negotiate much on price. They certainly get a premium, but they also make the buying process very smooth and they're honest which is worth a lot in this game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmac Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) Yes, I checked my PM's and messaged Seth, who got a pre-buy done and spoke to Ron Fisher in person, who I purchased my Mooney from and did the pre-buy on this airplane. I am sure that All American can fill you in on the details, which may have changed, if you are interested. Edited February 22, 2019 by Kmac addition 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 100 hours on the engine, nice radio stack and good interior.Breaking this down:The engine is worth $29000 alone Radio avionics stack $10000 (including KT74)3 blade prop $10000Leaving $20000 for the rest.If corrosion free, no squawks...pretty close, a tad high.Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 I'm not a fan of the Accutrax autopilot, but this one even has altitude hold. I like the 430W. It's missing shoulder belts... which would be a deal breaker for me, but they could get installed during a pre-buy. Ad says it has front seat shoulder harnesses.Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_H Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 14 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said: The engine is worth $29000 alone $29K for a field overhaul on an IO-360? 14 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said: 3 blade prop $10000 Why is a 3-blade worth an additional $10K? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 17 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said: Ad says it has front seat shoulder harnesses. Ah, nice. Must have been added after taking the pictures. I didn't think AllAmerican would sell one without the shoulder harnesses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, David_H said: $29K for a field overhaul on an IO-360? Why is a 3-blade worth an additional $10K? Im saying you took the parts off the plane to sell them as is...just ballpark estimates, factory overhaul without a core is what, $40000? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said: Ah, nice. Must have been added after taking the pictures. I didn't think AllAmerican would sell one without the shoulder harnesses. I think it has the retractable AA version by the look of the lap belt attachment point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_H Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said: Im saying you took the parts off the plane to sell them as is...just ballpark estimates, factory overhaul without a core is what, $40000? It's very unlikely that an IO-360 would sell for $29K if removed and sold as-is. Edited February 22, 2019 by David_H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 JW3, Where are you located? Looks like somebody was treating this plane like a forever-plane... AAA does a nice job of describing exactly what you expect to see... Next steps... go see it. go see something else that is close. be ready to move, on one or the other... The challenge on getting hung up about a few AMUs... There are more people with an extra 4amu when it comes to good retirement planes. First plane purchase....? Go really slowly, expect to lose out on an opportunity or two... The first time you miss an opportunity... you know exactly what you want, and how much you are willing to pay.... It is much easier to put earnest money on the next plane you see that meets your mission... Go spend some time with David, Learn all you can about that Mooney, and all Mooneys in general. I learned about M20Cs from David in th 90s... I bought an M20C in NJ in y2k... I bought the M20R from AAA a decade later... As far as adding up the costs...of individual parts goes... they are installed and working... getting an engine installed can cost 10amu... Buy a plane in AW condition, have an independent PPI done on it, get Transition Training, deliver the plane home... The cool part of an expensive M20E... when you pay that high price, you get to set your expectations pretty high to match. A lot better than buying a project hoping to save a few AMUs... Competition has a way of setting the price... your competition is other buyers... Other buyers have a tendency of showing up... when the plane gets advertised on Controller... PP thoughts on buying and selling machinery. I have only successfully bought two planes... and only sold one... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 AAA has sold this one a couple times I believe, which is generally a good thing as it comes back in for trade-up. A friend of mine owned it many years ago ago and has AAA sell it for him during a busy time for him. I've flown it pre-overhaul and it was a solid plane. Paint was rough-ish at the time, and I'm surprised it hasn't been painted since then, but maybe it got touched up/detailed. Speed wise it was close with my J and rigging was good. I'm not fond of metal 3 blade props on our 4 cyl engines but this one was fairly smooth. No corrosion internally that I recall. I don't think the Accu Trak worked well back then, but they are simple to fix and maybe it is great now. He had a local hot rod shop re-do the seats with memory foam and neutral ultra-leather, including perfed center sections. They turned out great, and I can't believe someone replaced them with those ugly blue and red covers! Hopefully they could be peeled off? Quite a down-grade if they're permanent. The new Spatial interior panels are nice and were definitely needed. We replaced the side windows too as well as the original insulation with the updated foil-backed foam. Price seems high to me as well, but maybe that is where the market is today. It could use a standardized panel upgrade, perhaps in conjunction with G5's or PFD, GFC-500, etc if it will be a keeper. You could do worse for sure, but I'd try negotiating it down a bit. IIRC, the next owner flew it a TON all over the country. I have no idea when the o/h was done, but I seem to recall that the last time it was for sale it was over TBO. Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said: 100 hours on the engine, nice radio stack and good interior. Breaking this down: The engine is worth $29000 alone Radio avionics stack $10000 (including KT74) 3 blade prop $10000 Leaving $20000 for the rest. If corrosion free, no squawks...pretty close, a tad high. Tom If it’s a factory overhaul I would give $29,000....for a field overhaul, no way.. Jewell can do it for 15k, and this might not even be that good.. Also looks like a nice airplane but I do not understand removing the armrests to call it more elbow room. now you have no armrest or headrest actually I guess you can just sit upright in the seat but it’s going to be very tiring Edited February 22, 2019 by jetdriven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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