Michael Williams Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 I owned a Mooney 252 back in the late 80's with turbocharged engine, but not familiar with the aftermarket Ray Jay. Any opinions? Also, this is a Mooney D model converted to a C, what does that mean? Many thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 I can answer the second question. It's a D model (fixed) that's been converted to a retrac. For all intents and purposes, it's basically a C model now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orionflt Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 the ray jay turbo is a manually controlled turbo normalizer, your previous 252 everything was automatic. Brian 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 As RB said the D was a fixed gear/prop model that all but 3? have been converted to C’s. Do you want to fly the plane like a turbo or just want the added climb performance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Williams Posted February 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 Thanks all for your feedback. Regarding the Ray Jay Turbonarmalizer. I've heard that turbocharging creates a whole new maintenance issue with the extreme heat generated in the turbocharger. I fly mostly VFR from sea level Santa Rosa with most days in the standard range (seldom temps above 85 ambient)...so I do not NEED turbocharging under most scenarios. However I am surrounded by terrain in three directions and if I NEED to get to higher altitude for terrain or weather it's a great feature have have (in reserve). If I'm understanding the "manually" activated turbonormalizer would only be employed if I chose and could operate the plane "normally aspirated" in most flying circumstances. Am I understanding this correctly? Thanks, again...MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 Ray jays are very easy to maintain, cheap overhaul, and plenty of parts. They normalize (standard atmospheric pressure) an engine to have benefits for density altitude on take off, in the climb, at altitude. They do not add horsepower like a turbo charger does so easier on the engine. There is an AD to change all the fuel hoses every 5 yrs. I don’t know the numbers on a C but at FL190 which is the sweet spot on my F it is 160-165kts TAS. I did @ 1600 MSL to FL250 in 56 mins. At about 210 the control services get very mushy and you get below 60% power so very diminishing. FL190-200 though is pretty good I specifically sought out an F with a Rayjay because there is really zero downside other then a little loss in useful load and a little more fuel burn. I like to fly 11-12k feet so it is nice for the climb and I can turn the prop down to quiet the cabin without a power loss. I rarely use O2 but when I go to Wyoming I have done a consistent 250+ knots on the return trip as example. I have also used on occasion to top some weather. It doesn’t really add anything to the purchase price, costs nothing to maintain, and is essentially impossible to get aside from buying a plane with it already installed (one of the 2 STC’s is dead). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, Michael Williams said: I chose and could operate the plane "normally aspirated" in most flying circumstances. Am I understanding this correctly? Thanks, again...MO Yes you get a 4th knob. You shove throttle all the way in. When it drops below 26” give or take you twist the 4th knob and it adds back manifold. You can develop 100% power to about Fl180. If you never push the 4th knob in you are flying around in a C with a little more fuel burn (about .5 GHO) for same speed due to exhaust change and a little more weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drapo Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 Can you get any benefits from adding a turbo-normalizer to a carburated engine? My answer would be no because of the limited capabilities of a carburator mixing air and fuel outside a relatively standard atmoshpere, ie 6000’’, plus or minus a couple of thousand feet. I guess what I’m saying is you’re probably better off with a fuel injected Mooney with a Ram air system that adds 2in MP compared to than a RayJay Mooney with a carburated engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 46 minutes ago, M20F said: You can develop 100% power to about Fl180. wow, that would be awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 27 minutes ago, drapo said: Can you get any benefits from adding a turbo-normalizer to a carburated engine? Yes which of course is why people put them on carbureted engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 TNs are great... O360s are great... Using a TN on an O360 has been done by a few people around here... It is somewhat unique to add a TN to an O360... A person that would add a TN would normally start with an injected model... A person that has an O360 already, can add a TN for a few amu more... So, a TN would add to the O360’s skill sets... Don’t imagine that it turns a C into a 252.... that would require a few more parts...MP controller, intercooler, and a pair of cylinders... It really helps to be familiar with engine operations... Some people have burned the paint off the cowling... this is not everybody though... Having an engine monitor is key... knowing how to use it is more important... The really good news... we have the key STC holder that makes parts for the RayJay TN... For more details find @tomgo2 A solid PPI is important, things can get extra expensive skipping important steps... PP thoughts only... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, carusoam said: Having an engine monitor is key... knowing how to use it is more important... I have an EI MVP-50 but really the whole engine monitor thing is over rated unless you are trying to fly extremely LOP and you could fly for 10yrs ROP on what it cost. An IO360 is less sophisticated then the engine on my lawn tractor. If you fly POH speeds and use the POH power settings you will never have any issue. I know becaus I futz around in cross countries and low and behold the engine monitor just validates the free book. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 Mike, It’s overrated because you have one already, a really nice one! telling you everything is working as expected... Everything is good... until it isn’t... Sticking valves, failed plugs and leaning the best possible way.... lead, ash, and oil fouling were a pain... All benefit from having an engine monitor... My ability to fly an M20C nearly ended in its first 10 hours, because a lack of an engine monitor.... Then my risks increased without the knowledge that an engine monitor provides... Probably makes me extra sensitive to the engine’s small issues... My C wasn’t very nice when I got it... Adding a TN to MY O360 would not have been helpful... the stuck valve crashed into the piston, bending the valve’s rod... it freed up, so I flew it home... found out about the actual damage after I got home... Hence, the discussion... If you know your engine like a few around here... the TN O360 can be a really good idea... If you are not familiar with the red box and don’t care about learning about it... The TN is probably better for somebody else. Once flying a 252... how does one go back to an M20C...? Is that possible? The cost of Money is cheap today. Won’t be this way for long. Get the plane that fits and hold it a long time.... Adding an engine monitor can be a pretty low cost endeavor... depending on the owner and his mechanic... The M20D Master started out as the entry level Mooney... It was intended to be able to add upgrades.... Retract gear CS prop IFR radio package Continuing on with the upgrades decades later... TN Engine monitor WAAS capable GPS It’s all over rated... Two of the three M20Ds in original configuration, have been MSers. Sven recently sold his... One was in California(?), the other in NJ... Back to the OP, what’s the next steps, Michael W.? Best regards, -a- 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, carusoam said: Mike, It’s overrated because you have one already telling you everything is working as expected... Everything is good... until it isn’t... Sticking valves, failed plugs and leaning the best possible way.... lead, ash, and oil fouling were a pain... An engine monitor is going to tell you a few things for sure. When the #4 cylinder isn’t firing those are the plugs to check. It saves a lot of time there for sure but nothing super useful. It tells you on final that the #3 engine sucked a valve, broke a ring, or flew off the side of the airplane. Somewhat useful but easily identifiable after you land. With a lot lot of engine logs that you relentlessly analyze, over a lot of hours, with a lot of knowledge what to look for than similar to oil analysis it might tell you something. Odds are it isn’t conclusive and most people aren’t going to interpret the data correctly. I don’t completely devalue them as they are good for aggressive LOP, more accurate than analog, has nice alarms, etc. but for the most part the fuel flow/totalizer is what you want. To say it is critical to have is false at best and I flew 30yrs and a lot of hours (I am finally more ASEL then MSEL all piston) without one, no issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 FF/totalizer and for the M20C... carb temp. Super nice to have... I am easy to distract, and can be forgetful the more experienced I get... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilovecornfields Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 1 hour ago, M20F said: I have an EI MVP-50 but really the whole engine monitor thing is over rated unless you are trying to fly extremely LOP and you could fly for 10yrs ROP on what it cost. An IO360 is less sophisticated then the engine on my lawn tractor. If you fly POH speeds and use the POH power settings you will never have any issue. I know becaus I futz around in cross countries and low and behold the engine monitor just validates the free book. That’s kind of a silly thing to say. If you don’t like yours you could cover it up. I like mine. Had a rough running engine once on my way over the mountains. Made a 180, precautionary landing, downloaded my monitor data to Savvy (using my wombat while sitting on the ramp), spoke to my mechanic and discussed the data, then I walked into the shop and I said “I think my #5 injector was clogged, could you inspect it?” Flew off an hour later after paying $75 and no problems since then. I think that would have gone differently without the monitor. Maybe someone has compared overhaul times for planes with and without monitors and gives us some objective data. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 3 hours ago, Michael Williams said: I fly mostly VFR from sea level Santa Rosa with most days in the standard range (seldom temps above 85 ambient)...so I do not NEED turbocharging under most scenarios. However I am surrounded by terrain in three directions and if I NEED to get to higher altitude for terrain or weather it's a great feature have have (in reserve). It sounds like a TN system would work well for you. There are extra expenses associated with the additional hardware. You’re not going to be able to find an old salvage exhaust system to toss on instead you’ll spend a small fortune getting a custom one made or repaired. Also certain hoses need to be changed more often along with turbo and scavenger pump maintenance at overhaul. However, the climb performance is wonderful especially in the 7-14k range. I use the system on my C every time I climb above 4K. But to be honest I normally have it off for most of my flying. I just don’t have a reason to climb above 12k around the Great Lakes region. I would use / hope to use on longer trips going east with a good tailwind. Performance wise I normally true out in the 147-150 range (turbo off) at around 9 gph @8-11k. On the turbo at 13.5k the speed bumps to the low 160’s but this is a higher power setting and fuel flow 12-12.5 gph. I’m not sure what it could do at 19k but I’m planning on running some speed runs when I can carve out some time. The PO’ers would make a huge difference with a system like this. One time leaving the turbo knob in on takeoff might be the end of the engine. Or forgetting to inch it back out on decent could cause some serious issues down the road. Good luck finding the right plane! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmasing Posted February 24, 2019 Report Share Posted February 24, 2019 On 2/20/2019 at 3:15 PM, M20F said: It doesn’t really add anything to the purchase price, costs nothing to maintain, and is essentially impossible to get aside from buying a plane with it already installed (one of the 2 STC’s is dead). Does one of those two dead STC's include the F? I hope not, I just bought mine and would love to add this on my low-time engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted February 24, 2019 Report Share Posted February 24, 2019 Hm, your best point of contact is probably @tomgo2... he is the support business for existing RayJay equipment... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted February 24, 2019 Report Share Posted February 24, 2019 3 hours ago, hmasing said: Does one of those two dead STC's include the F? I hope not, I just bought mine and would love to add this on my low-time engine. About zero possibility to add a RayJay to a plane that didn’t have one already. M20 Turbos is your best bet though not sure their current status either. @tomgo2 has already confirmed he is missing 1 of the STC’s on another thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomgo2 Posted February 25, 2019 Report Share Posted February 25, 2019 Hi There, we have 1 refurbished M20C kit available for purchase. Asking $20K installed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomgo2 Posted February 25, 2019 Report Share Posted February 25, 2019 @hmasing the M20 A through D/G and M20E/F STCs are dead. The company that owns those STCs closed and took the STCs with them. I spoke with the owner and he will not sell/sign them over due to liability issues. RAJAY owns the M20J STC and taking deposits if your interested! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_H Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 (edited) On 2/20/2019 at 3:47 PM, drapo said: I guess what I’m saying is you’re probably better off with a fuel injected Mooney with a Ram air system that adds 2in MP compared to than a RayJay Mooney with a carburated engine. I normally don't bother opening the Ram air since it rarely makes very much difference in the airspeed and also raises the fuel burn. I might get a little more than 1" MP back from opening the Ram Air, depending on outside conditions and altitude. Edited February 26, 2019 by David_H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragsf15e Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 19 minutes ago, David_H said: I normally don't bother opening the Ram air since it rarely makes very much difference in the airspeed and also raises the fuel burn. I might get a little more than 1" MP back from opening the Ram Air, depending on outside conditions and altitude. Yes, but I love the 4kts I get from the 1” mp back!! I use it whenever my altitude drops my cruise power below 75%. Yep, fuel flow goes up with the power increase, but I’ll still take the 4kts! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 This guy is selling a C on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001361000559&__tn__=%2CdC-R-R&eid=ARD_1_QwuH1obik4twiFN5b2gEoegbN9IGp6eAoBxfAtjY8J2K6YN_tdRpdaZUT5LjmFtr7Et3gbAhOb&hc_ref=ART6v8vWt2AYhnj6czOf0Twu8QJANIm3s9IHFiQvYRxfDyqIAFjz3s3JfwoBOcQrlgE&fref=nf&post_id=786424318387282 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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