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New Mooney Pilot


Natemuncy17

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On 2/19/2019 at 1:12 PM, DXB said:

Congrats!  I was near your spot  4 years ago - did my PPL in same airframe (Piper warrior)  and then immediately bought an M20C. A few tips:

-If you're almost done, just finish up the PPL in the Archer ASAP, as switching to the Mooney for the checkride will slow down your progress for sure.   

-No matter how good your PPL instructor is, DONT USE THEM FOR THE TO TRANSITION UNLESS THEY HAVE SUBSTANTIAL AND RECENT MOONEY EXPERIENCE - GET AN INSTRUCTOR WHO REALLY KNOWS THE MOONEY. There are horror stories from those who did otherwise.

-If you're even a little fast on short final, the Mooney will  float the same way as the Piper, and do it for a bit longer. Go around if you are way too fast or even a bit fast with limited runway length. Never try to force it on.  Keep firm back pressure on the yoke after the mains touch. 

-Overall I thought it lands pretty much the same as the Piper. It's very docile if you are on speed and acts about the same in a crosswind but with sharper, more precise control responses.  Having trained in a low wing plane that likes to float may ease your transition.

-During the transition, you'll start slowing down much earlier for landing than you're used to because it will strike you how long it takes to slow down.  Later on, you'll figure out exactly how the plane likes to slow down, and so you'll be able to do it as close as 2-3 miles out rather than 5 miles out.  

-The flaps are much less effective in the Mooney at slowing you down than in the Archer.  Dropping the gear helps much more. 

-Needing to trim the nose up aggressively after dropping the flaps will be new to you (as opposed to trimming down with the Piper).  Most newbies trim up less than optimal for landing.  Your speed control and landings will be much more consistent if you trim out all the backpressure  from the outset after dropping flaps.

-The prop knob and landing gear will take some getting used to, but no biggie.  

mandatory disclaimer: am not a CFI, use guidance above at your own risk 

Thanks for all the great tips!  Ive tried to do as much research for the transition as possible but nothing equates to the real thing!!

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On 2/19/2019 at 12:49 PM, Hank said:

@Natemuncy17, that is great advice! Tell us where you are, or better, put your location in your avatar, and we can recommend a Mooney instructor for you. It will be simpler to complete your PPL before transitioning to the Mooney, if for no other reasons than that you won't have to relearn all of the maneuvers, and you can go straight to the cross countries without worrying about insurance-required dual time before you can fly solo. It's not uncommon to need 15-20 hours training in a complex plane before you can fly it solo . . . . This isn't bad, but it will really extend your training time for the PPL.

That is all true... the insurance was not a major hit as my father will be flying as well.  Insurance informed me I would need only 10 hours of dual before solo. But thank you for the advice, I am more comfortable in the Archer at the moment... a few more hours in it couldn't hurt!

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On 2/19/2019 at 1:22 PM, rbridges said:

A lot of us transitioned from cherokees.  Although much slower, I felt the they have a lot in common with the low wing mooney.  The mooney will float in ground effect much longer than the piper, so make sure you get used to watching your speeds over the numbers.  I've flown into Canton several times.  

It is a very nice airport to fly into but I believe we will hanger the bird down at RYY as they have space available and Canton does not.  But that is what I have been hearing all around is the Mooney does not want to quit flying and will show you how short the runway really is. 

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4 hours ago, PT20J said:

Hey, Nate @Natemuncy17 help us out here. Remind us which way you need to add trim when putting in the first two notches of flaps. And tell us whether it's a PA28-180 or a -181 (constant chord or semi-tapered wing). Thanks.

Skip

With the first two notches of flaps the nose wants to pitch upward, and I have to trim nose down... and it is a PA28-18, a dream plane in my own opinion for putting around locally and not needing the complexity of speed and aerodynamics. But vacations are a favorite!

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20 minutes ago, Natemuncy17 said:

what I have been hearing all around is the Mooney does not want to quit flying and will show you how short the runway really is. 

Start practicing speed control now, in the Piper. You can probably have a nice landing now even if you're 5 knots too fast. A Mooney in landing configuration will typically float 100 feet for every knot that you are above stall speed, calculated for the exact weight of the plane at that moment. What's usually shown in the POH is stall speed at gross weight, not solo with half tanks, a much lower number.

If your speed on final is supposed to be 65 knots, flaring at 55 knots (I'm making these numbers up),  then do not accept 72 and 59, even though they work in the Archer.

This is part of the benefit of using a Mooney-specific CFI for transition training, or attending a MAPA PPP weekend program (Mooney Airplane Pilots Assn. Pilot Proficiency Program, www.mooneypilots.com).

Just remember to fly safe and have fun!

P.S.--I spent 7 years on a 3000' obstructed runway, and the last 3 years on 3200'. A local favorite before moving was a nearby 2000' grass field. "Short runway" is more often pilot's speed control rather than actual length of asphalt / concrete / grass.

Edited by Hank
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56 minutes ago, Hank said:

If your speed on final is supposed to be 65 knots, flaring at 55 knots (I'm making these numbers up),  then do not accept 72 and 59, even though they work in the Archer.

That's why I think short-field approaches are good practice--it burns that mentality of getting the airspeed pegged at one number, no higher and no lower.

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1 hour ago, Hank said:

Start practicing speed control now, in the Piper. You can probably have a nice landing now even if you're 5 knots too fast. A Mooney in landing configuration will typically float 100 feet for every knot that you are above stall speed, calculated for the exact weight of the plane at that moment. What's usually shown in the POH is stall speed at gross weight, not solo with half tanks, a much lower number.

If your speed on final is supposed to be 65 knots, flaring at 55 knots (I'm making these numbers up),  then do not accept 72 and 59, even though they work in the Archer.

This is part of the benefit of using a Mooney-specific CFI for transition training, or attending a MAPA PPP weekend program (Mooney Airplane Pilots Assn. Pilot Proficiency Program, www.mooneypilots.com).

Just remember to fly safe and have fun!

P.S.--I spent 7 years on a 3000' obstructed runway, and the last 3 years on 3200'. A local favorite before moving was a nearby 2000' grass field. "Short runway" is more often pilot's speed control rather than actual length of asphalt / concrete / grass.

From my research its been 86 knots on downwind, 78 on base leg, 69 on final and then 60-65 across the numbers... but that's from reading so articles online.

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22 minutes ago, Natemuncy17 said:

From my research its been 86 knots on downwind, 78 on base leg, 69 on final and then 60-65 across the numbers... but that's from reading so articles online.

That's fine though I would round off those numbers since you're not staring at the ASI in the pattern: 90 kias on downwind, slow to 80 as you fly base and roll out on file at about 75. Remember, the stall speed and consequently the correct speed on short final is weight dependent. 65 kias is about 1.3 times Vso at gross. At 2300 pounds you'd want to be about 5 kias lower to minimize float. And a Mooney will float if you arrive at the  intended landing point fast.

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22 hours ago, PT20J said:

Hey, Nate @Natemuncy17 help us out here. Remind us which way you need to add trim when putting in the first two notches of flaps. And tell us whether it's a PA28-180 or a -181 (constant chord or semi-tapered wing). Thanks.

Skip

 

17 hours ago, Natemuncy17 said:

With the first two notches of flaps the nose wants to pitch upward, and I have to trim nose down... and it is a PA28-18, a dream plane in my own opinion for putting around locally and not needing the complexity of speed and aerodynamics. But vacations are a favorite!

Glad I didn't imagine the pitch up w/ flaps in the later PA-28s.  Still not at all sure of the aerodynamics behind it  -  on the forums, there is some talk of shift in wing center of lift and/or increase in size of the stabilator at the same time that they switched from the Hershey bar the tapered wing causing increase in tail downforce with flap deployment. I didn't really find an authoritative sounding answer. Regardless, I can still hear my highly unprofessional curmudgeon of a PPL instructor yelling "push down the nose!" when deploying the flaps.  He didn't "believe in trim." "You need pump iron like me if you think it takes too much force!" Dumbass. I feel still feel sorry for my subsequent MAPA transition instructor, who was also my DPE for my PPL check ride and was rather generous in passing me. During the transition, he was then faced with a badly trained pilot and worked on breaking multiple bad habits at once but always acted classy.

On another note, I find my carb'd short body Mooney imitates the PA-28's speed and performance quite well as a local putting around /sightseeing machine. Just set to 20-squared, with >2 GPH less fuel burn than the Piper.  Your injected mid body may be even more efficient if it has balanced injectors to help lean further.  If your experience is like mine, your sentimental attachment to the Piper will disappear very quickly.

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1 hour ago, DXB said:

On another note, I find my carb'd short body Mooney imitates the PA-28's speed and performance quite well as a local putting around /sightseeing machine. Just set to 20-squared, with >2 GPH less fuel burn than the Piper.  Your injected mid body may be even more efficient if it has balanced injectors to help lean further.  If your experience is like mine, your sentimental attachment to the Piper will disappear very quickly.

I use my M20-C to give rides on Plane Ride Day at the airport, with mostly C172 but sometimes a Cherokee 180. To stay back with them and not run over the plane in front of me, I use 2300 and pull throttle on the crosswind turn to stop the climb; after leveling off, I further reduce throttle to about 110 mph and lean hard. Doesn't take much fuel.

On the other hand, I gave a ride to a Piper pilot and his young son once, as he was plane shopping and had never been in a Mooney. Coming in to land over the trees [with a displaced threshold], about 1/4 mile out I pulled the throttle to idle like always, swept over the trees and landed not too far past the displaced line. I did notice out the corner of my eye that he reacted strongly when I pulled the throttle. As we were taxiing in, he looked at me with wide eyes and said if he'd pulled the throttle like that in the Cherokee that he had been flying, we would have gone down in the trees, "but with your plane, nothing happened!" It reminded me of the phrase I heard back when I was plane shopping:  "it glides like a sewer lid."  :lol:

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2 hours ago, DXB said:

On another note, I find my carb'd short body Mooney imitates the PA-28's speed and performance quite well as a local putting around /sightseeing machine. Just set to 20-squared, with >2 GPH less fuel burn than the Piper.  Your injected mid body may be even more efficient if it has balanced injectors to help lean further.  If your experience is like mine, your sentimental attachment to the Piper will disappear very quickly.

I will say I do miss the trim system on the Cherokee.  It's nice to be able to put the yoke somewhere, trim off the pressure and just leave it there.  With the Mooney trim changing the horizontal stab angle, I find whenever I adjust the trim, it changes the travel on the yoke a little bit, which gets me a little off.  If I'm trying to be precise on trim, I'll usually have to come back a few seconds later to fine tune it.

I hated the long travel on the aileron control, though.  The yoke turns about 100o left and right, where the Mooney yoke only turns about 45o.  The Cherokee felt like driving a limp-wristed Cadillac with too much power steering, while the Mooney feels like a sports-car at speed.  I find the smaller travel makes it easier and quicker to react to gusts on landing--the larger travel on the Cherokee feels like I'm flailing around.

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18 minutes ago, toto said:

The only things the Piper has on the Mooney are rudder trim and a nice big accessible baggage door. Everything else on the Mooney is better. 

The baggage door down at floor level is accessible, but it sure makes it hard to load baggage to the ceiling!

 

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7 minutes ago, Hank said:

The baggage door down at floor level is accessible, but it sure makes it hard to load baggage to the ceiling!

 

Yeah, hard but not impossible. 

I can get two mountain bikes into the back of the Piper if I take the wheels off. To get them into the Mooney requires taking the wheels off and then running them through a blender. 

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On 2/19/2019 at 9:05 AM, Natemuncy17 said:

Hey guys,  I am a new Mooney pilot and almost a new pilot in general.  I have only a handful of hours under my belt officially but have been airborne since I can remember.  As I've been training in a Piper Archer for my PPL, which I have not completed yet, I have obtained a Mooney M20J.  I was wondering if any of y'all had any pointers or tips outside of the ordinary.

 

Thanks!

 

 

Welcome. I’ve been in a J model since December 2017, and I enjoy owning it. Mooneyspace was my gateway, including a guy who took me up for a demo flight after I first logged on.

I like the advice above to finish you PPL then get good transition training. I did transition training with a great instructor near San Antonio, which was a good start.

Good luck.

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I did a little research on the Cherokee wing and tail. The PA28-181 has 10 square feet more wing area than the PA28-180, and 5-1/2 feet greater span. The PA28-181 stabilator is also about 7 square feet larger than on the PA28-180. Both airplanes have the same wing loading. I doubt the change in the wing would have any effect on pitch trim with flaps. The pitch effect of flaps on any wing (it doesn't matter high wing or low wing or short wing or long wing) is to increase the negative (nose down) pitching moment. The downwash interaction with the tail is what determines whether the whole airplane pitches up or down when flaps are extended.

The semi-tapered wing, being of greater aspect ratio, has less induced drag than the rectangular wing. At low airspeeds, where induced drag predominates, the semi-tapered wing gives improved climb performance and a reduced power off sink rate compared to the rectangular wing. This comes at a slight penalty in cruise speed and the necessity of adding washout to the wing to get the root to stall first (Mooney did it with an airfoil change rather than washout). The rectangular wing naturally stalls at the root first.

PA28-180.thumb.jpg.8107ff74d54496744c4d3bc7af77b3a0.jpgPA28-181.thumb.jpg.89e1faf503b8164e19c8abb226b76957.jpg

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6 hours ago, Flash said:

I second the recommendation for Cole Aviation. Joey was my mechanic when I was based at Fulton County from 2002-2009. He knows Mooneys, and you can trust him.

Same here.  Joey's performed all my work for the past three years.  He does get busy but is always willing to help. 

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