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New Mooney Pilot


Natemuncy17

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Hey guys,  I am a new Mooney pilot and almost a new pilot in general.  I have only a handful of hours under my belt officially but have been airborne since I can remember.  As I've been training in a Piper Archer for my PPL, which I have not completed yet, I have obtained a Mooney M20J.  I was wondering if any of y'all had any pointers or tips outside of the ordinary.

 

Thanks!

 

 

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Welcome. You will need to put more information under your avatar. Folks near your location may be available to provide in-person help. Your question is so open ended that there are about a million answers, so narrowing it down will likely get much better answers. I have a K model, but in many instances, the answers may be the same.

With your last name, you may haves some problems proving you have no connection to me :) 

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Welcome. You will need to put more information under your avatar. Folks near your location may be available to provide in-person help. Your question is so open ended that there are about a million answers, so narrowing it down will likely get much better answers. I have a K model, but in many instances, the answers may be the same.
With your last name, you may haves some problems proving you have no connection to me  


Looks like Nate is based in Georgia. You’re safe Don.


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14 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Welcome to Mooneyspace!  Finish your PPL and find a Mooney knowledgeable instructor for your check out.

@Natemuncy17, that is great advice! Tell us where you are, or better, put your location in your avatar, and we can recommend a Mooney instructor for you. It will be simpler to complete your PPL before transitioning to the Mooney, if for no other reasons than that you won't have to relearn all of the maneuvers, and you can go straight to the cross countries without worrying about insurance-required dual time before you can fly solo. It's not uncommon to need 15-20 hours training in a complex plane before you can fly it solo . . . . This isn't bad, but it will really extend your training time for the PPL.

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34 minutes ago, Natemuncy17 said:

Hey guys,  I am a new Mooney pilot and almost a new pilot in general.  I have only a handful of hours under my belt officially but have been airborne since I can remember.  As I've been training in a Piper Archer for my PPL, which I have not completed yet, I have obtained a Mooney M20J.  I was wondering if any of y'all had any pointers or tips outside of the ordinary.

 

Thanks!

Congrats!  I was near your spot  4 years ago - did my PPL in same airframe (Piper warrior)  and then immediately bought an M20C. A few tips:

-If you're almost done, just finish up the PPL in the Archer ASAP, as switching to the Mooney for the checkride will slow down your progress for sure.   

-No matter how good your PPL instructor is, DONT USE THEM FOR THE TO TRANSITION UNLESS THEY HAVE SUBSTANTIAL AND RECENT MOONEY EXPERIENCE - GET AN INSTRUCTOR WHO REALLY KNOWS THE MOONEY. There are horror stories from those who did otherwise.

-If you're even a little fast on short final, the Mooney will  float the same way as the Piper, and do it for a bit longer. Go around if you are way too fast or even a bit fast with limited runway length. Never try to force it on.  Keep firm back pressure on the yoke after the mains touch. 

-Overall I thought it lands pretty much the same as the Piper. It's very docile if you are on speed and acts about the same in a crosswind but with sharper, more precise control responses.  Having trained in a low wing plane that likes to float may ease your transition.

-During the transition, you'll start slowing down much earlier for landing than you're used to because it will strike you how long it takes to slow down.  Later on, you'll figure out exactly how the plane likes to slow down, and so you'll be able to do it as close as 2-3 miles out rather than 5 miles out.  

-The flaps are much less effective in the Mooney at slowing you down than in the Archer.  Dropping the gear helps much more. 

-Needing to trim the nose up aggressively after dropping the flaps will be new to you (as opposed to trimming down with the Piper).  Most newbies trim up less than optimal for landing.  Your speed control and landings will be much more consistent if you trim out all the backpressure  from the outset after dropping flaps.

-The prop knob and landing gear will take some getting used to, but no biggie.  

mandatory disclaimer: am not a CFI, use guidance above at your own risk 

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A lot of us transitioned from cherokees.  Although much slower, I felt the they have a lot in common with the low wing mooney.  The mooney will float in ground effect much longer than the piper, so make sure you get used to watching your speeds over the numbers.  I've flown into Canton several times.  

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40 minutes ago, DXB said:

-Needing to trim the nose up aggressively after dropping the flaps will be new to you (as opposed to trimming down with the Piper).  Most newbies trim up less than optimal for landing.  Your speed control and landings will be much more consistent if you trim out all the backpressure  from the outset after dropping flaps.

Archers/Cherokees trim the same way as Mooneys and most other aircraft--flaps down, trim up.  Mooney's do seem to require more trim, but don't quote me on that.

Cessna's are the backwards ones--flaps down, trim down--because the downwash from the flaps hits the horizontal stabilizer.

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31 minutes ago, rbridges said:

A lot of us transitioned from cherokees.  Although much slower, I felt the they have a lot in common with the low wing mooney.  The mooney will float in ground effect much longer than the piper, so make sure you get used to watching your speeds over the numbers.  I've flown into Canton several times.  

+1 on  everyone's comments so far--get your PPL first, do your transition training after.  If you have an Archer/Cherokee, that's a pretty straightforward transition.  I found practicing short-field technique and flying down the runway in ground effect at landing attitude in a Cherokee to be two drills that helped me make the transition easily.

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13 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Archers/Cherokees trim the same way as Mooneys and most other aircraft--flaps down, trim up.  They seem to require a lot less trim, though.

 Cessna's are the backwards ones--flaps down, trim down--because the downwash from the flaps hits the horizontal stabilizer.

The '75 Piper PA-151 Warrior I did most of my training in definitely needed firm nose down trim after the first two notches of flaps when abeam the numbers. The need for trimming the opposite way with flaps in the Mooney, which is more typical, was a surprise coming from the Warrior.  I vaguely recall the newer Archer I got a couple hours in  at the time flew just about identically, but I could certainly be wrong on that.  Trim might have been pretty neutral with the flaps.

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A lot of us transitioned from cherokees.  Although much slower, I felt the they have a lot in common with the low wing mooney.  The mooney will float in ground effect much longer than the piper, so make sure you get used to watching your speeds over the numbers.  I've flown into Canton several times.  

 

Here is the real difference.

 

All out Cherokee.

 

6066680a4b829c808aa24dff1154f77b.jpg

 

Mooney

 

1e3972e2a7e42e3865f44b74c88d2402.jpg

 

 

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30 minutes ago, DXB said:

The '75 Piper PA-151 Warrior I did most of my training in definitely needed firm nose down trim after the first two notches of flaps when abeam the numbers. The need for trimming the opposite way with flaps in the Mooney, which is more typical, was a surprise coming from the Warrior.  I vaguely recall the newer Archer I got a couple hours in  at the time flew just about identically, but I could certainly be wrong on that.  Trim might have been pretty neutral with the flaps.

That's weird, but possible, I've only flown Cherokees, so the heavier ones may do something different.  Still, aerodynamically, IIRC the standard effect of deploying flaps is to produce a nose down moment, so something weird has to happen to produce the opposite effect (like with high-wing Cessna's)

Here's a blurb from the Airplane Flying Handbook (I think)

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/courses/content/35/376/Use of Flaps.pdf

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27 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

That's weird, but possible, I've only flown Cherokees, so the heavier ones may do something different.  Still, aerodynamically, IIRC the standard effect of deploying flaps is to produce a nose down moment, so something weird has to happen to produce the opposite effect (like with high-wing Cessna's)

Here's a blurb from the Airplane Flying Handbook (I think)

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/courses/content/35/376/Use of Flaps.pdf

I think it might have something to do with the change from the "Hershey bar" wing of the early Cherokees to the tapered wing, which first appeared in the '74 Warrior and then went on all the later planes in the PA-28 series. The center of lift moved forward and not back on the tapered wing upon initial deployment of flaps.  The tapered wings also tended to float a lot more than the Hershey bar.  I'd best stop diverting this thread though - there's really no need for a Piper subforum on this site :lol:

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Welcome aboard, Nate!

You just joined MS...

Did you read up on things like...

 

TT Transition Training?

 

How about...

PPI Pre-purchase Inspections?

 

Are you familiar with MAPA and Mooney specific flight instructors?

 

Mooney Speed and efficiency are great.  Get trained to get the most out of it... safely...

Safety is the third leg of the stool...

 

Best regards,

-a-

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4 hours ago, DXB said:

The center of lift moved forward and not back on the tapered wing upon initial deployment of flaps. 

You're going to have to explain that to me. Don't see why that would be aerodynamically - the airfoil didn't change, just the aspect ratio and wing area.

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The Archer is one of my favorite airplanes and the one I most enjoyed instructing in. It has a comfortable cabin and seating position, nice handling characteristics, gentle stall. The rear seats come out easily to haul cargo, the manual flaps are simple and you can step on them getting into the airplane. The oleo struts cushion your landings even if you drop it in a little. It seems a well thought out design (well except for that stupid air cylinder vertical seat adjustment device). Best of all, Piper has made a ton of them, parts are available and any mechanic worth his A&P certificate can work on one without screwing it up. So, why did I recently buy a Mooney? Well, it goes faster on not much more gas, kind of looks like a Cherokee and is easy to describe to non-pilots meeting you at the airport (we'll be in the airplane with the tail on backwards).:)

Transitioning from a Cherokee to a Mooney is pretty simple. Both airplanes are single-engine, low wing monoplanes with nearly the same power and size. Of course you will have retractable gear, constant speed prop and cowl flaps to deal with, but in my experience everyone gets the hang of these pretty quickly. The Cherokee is a little touchy to get trimmed just right and that's good practice for the Mooney. The Mooney flaps are more effective in reducing stall speed that on the Cherokee. The wing is low to the ground -- lots of ground effect and the effective flaps will make for a lot of float if you are a couple of knots too fast. The Mooney is, of course, much cleaner so it takes more planning to slow down. If you have speed brakes, don't use them until you can manage the energy perfectly well without them. That way, they won't become a crutch for poor technique. You'll  find it faster in the landing pattern so make your patterns wider to give yourself room until you get the hang of it. And, with those rubber doughnuts instead of the oleos, you will really feel your touchdowns. 

Most Mooneys have better avionics than the typical Archer, so for the first few hours concentrate on flying and leave all the fancy avionics alone no matter how tempting it is to play with the new toys. And keep engine operation simple at first, too. Just run ROP at reasonable power settings. Lots of time to explore all the avionics can do and LOP operations in your future.

You'll have a blast.

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2 hours ago, PT20J said:

You're going to have to explain that to me. Don't see why that would be aerodynamically - the airfoil didn't change, just the aspect ratio and wing area.

I have absolutely no ability to explain it to you since i’m blindly parroting what another instuctor told me without any real aeronautical engineering knowledge :mellow:.  Possibly there was none on his part either.  

I’m not imagining the phenomenon though right? The nose comes up with first two notches of flaps? 

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1 hour ago, DXB said:

I’m not imagining the phenomenon though right? The nose comes up with first two notches of flaps? 

Good question. I haven’t flown a Cherokee for a few years and I don’t recall. But I don’t remember the Hershey bar being different from the semi-tapered wing in terms of pitch trim with flaps, and I don’t see any reason why it should be.

Flaps increase effective wing camber which increases the nose down pitching moment of the wing. It also increases the downwash angle which changes the effective angle of attack at the horizontal stabilizer. The interplay of these two effects determine whether flap deployment requires nose up or down trim. 

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-No matter how good your PPL instructor is, DONT USE THEM FOR THE TO TRANSITION UNLESS THEY HAVE SUBSTANTIAL AND RECENT MOONEY EXPERIENCE - GET AN INSTRUCTOR WHO REALLY KNOWS THE MOONEY. There are horror stories from those who did otherwise.


THIS!

This is also good advice on the maintenance side of ownership. Find someone experience who is willing to share knowledge and help. From Georgia, Don Maxwell in TX is not far by Mooney.

Welcome to a great community.

For ANY new PPL, suggest you keep asking questions and learning, don’t accept Old Wives’ Tales, and try to keep expanding your skills and experience.

The education is really just starting ...
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11 hours ago, PT20J said:
13 hours ago, DXB said:

I’m not imagining the phenomenon though right? The nose comes up with first two notches of flaps? 

Good question. I haven’t flown a Cherokee for a few years and I don’t recall. But I don’t remember the Hershey bar being different from the semi-tapered wing in terms of pitch trim with flaps, and I don’t see any reason why it should be.

Flaps increase effective wing camber which increases the nose down pitching moment of the wing. It also increases the downwash angle which changes the effective angle of attack at the horizontal stabilizer. The interplay of these two effects determine whether flap deployment requires nose up or down trim. 

Hey, Nate @Natemuncy17 help us out here. Remind us which way you need to add trim when putting in the first two notches of flaps. And tell us whether it's a PA28-180 or a -181 (constant chord or semi-tapered wing). Thanks.

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