help please

[cliff]

I have just started flying again after many years. Looking to buy my first plane - a 1959 Mooney M20A. It is out of annual but the engine I am told is strong with low hours. The problem with the aircraft is the glue bond between the wood and the aluminum on the wings has separated in about 10 spots on each wing.

I am told that the plane is flyable but needs to ne ferried. Anybody have any idea about what I am looking at in regards to cost and time?  Should I even pursue this plane?

[Shadrach]

Are you referring to the the fuel tanks? I beleive that is the only aluminum in the wing. Do you have pictures? 

[Marauder]

I have just started flying again after many years. Looking to buy my first plane - a 1959 Mooney M20A. It is out of annual but the engine I am told is strong with low hours. The problem with the aircraft is the glue bond between the wood and the aluminum on the wings has separated in about 10 spots on each wing.
I am told that the plane is flyable but needs to ne ferried. Anybody have any idea about what I am looking at in regards to cost and time?  Should I even pursue this plane?

If you are looking at a plane with the wood delaminating, I would proceed cautiously. Not a lot of wood wing expertise left out there. Better off looking at a full metal wing plane.


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[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Cliff....

There are a few wood wing Mooney owners around here.  More like a Very few...

 

Fist thing you want to do is edit the title of your thread....

 

When it comes to flying... ‘help please’ sends people running for safety equipment.... 

 

Think more inside the box, get more specific.... like...

Questions about an M20A...

Delaminating wood wing...

 

Help people to help you...

Do a search on these planes to see if you are right for this type of project...

 

If you are seeking a plane that is low cost to buy... realize the entry price is only part of the equation...

Do it because you like wood planes...

 

Best regards,

-a-

[lifendet]

You keep mentioning that you are told. Who is telling you? Is it the owner or a mechanic? Find a mechanic familiar with this type of construction and proceed with caution. Don't trust anything a seller says. Do some research yourself and get a competent mechanic to provide suggestions. 

[m20kmooney]

1 hour ago, cliff said:

Should I even pursue this plane?

No. 

Edited February 19, 2019 by m20kmooney

[Prior owner]

I own an older wooden plane.

Wood doesn’t last very long once the glue or varnish barrier is broken- delamination on an older plane will likely require fabricating replacement wooden parts and further disassembly (maybe major disassembly) to perform a proper repair. We’re talking about a serious project and some serious money- most of the time you cannot just re-glue delaminated wood. As mentioned above, working with wooden aircraft is a specialty, however, any experienced A&P should be able to examine and probe wood for rot. Although, most A&P’s will not have a clue as to what will be involved to repair it. You need to talk to someone who is experienced in wooden aircraft restoration.

Not having seen pics of the plane, or of the delamination, and not knowing the asking price and where and under what conditions it has been stored, one cannot really form an opinion one way or the other about the airplane in question. Maybe its not that bad- but we cannot tell from what you have shared here. Good luck to you.

 

[cctsurf]

A wood wing mooney, while it may be cheap is really an item for a collector or someone who has good knowledge of what they are getting into.  The wood wings are a masterpiece, the planes are faster for a given horsepower and fly smoother, but working on them is a speciality.    There is an 'A model about 60 miles from me, and I considered it briefly, but finding someone to work on it would be almost impossible.

If you are really serious,  I agree with someone above who said, get a mechanic who knows the construction to look over the "delamination"...  That is a word at which I would run.  You could very well be talking about a MAJOR outlay of funds to rebuild the wing.  There are a few wood wing mooney experts out there, today.  Search one out.  Or perhaps a Bellanaa Viking expert. 

 

[Runway37]

Welcome Cliff,

You've come to the right place - the freely shared knowledge here is amazing. You may want to introduce yourself in an introductory post in General Mooney Talk.

Like you, I'm trying to get back into flying after too many years away. I wish I had this forum in 1978 when I purchased my first Mooney, a 1964 M20E. She needed a lot of fixing that I didnt see because I was ignorant of the correct purchase process so I spent a lot of time and money making her right and not flying. If I do find myself looking to purchase again I will be relying heavily on this forum for accurate, honest (sometimes brutally) info. I dont know about you, but that's exactly the type of info I want when I'm spending money.

Stick around, search the forum, post some pictures, take us along on your adventure. You'll learn a lot and so will we - a wood wing Mooney - very interesting!

Good luck!

[steingar]

Don't walk away.  Run.  Unless you are specially knowledgeable you don't need these sorts of problems.  Lots of aluminum Mooneys with normal airplane problems most mechanics know how to fix.  No such thing as a cheap airplane.  One of the regular posters here has a long list of "cheap" airplanes that wound up being spectacularly expensive.

I myself consider an out of annual airplane to be scrap, and wouldn't pay any more than scrap value for it.  My thinking is if it isn't airworthy, what is it?  Granted, an airplane 3 days out of annual I might consider differently.  My guess is a wood airplane showing delimitation hasn't been in annual for a long time.

[gsxrpilot]

Are you just betting back into flying? Or are you looking to get into building and restoration? If it's flying that you want to do, get and airplane that is currently flying, in annual, and a pre-buy inspection confirms that it is currently airworthy.

On the other hand, if you're retired, live in a hangar or on an airport, and are looking for a project to tinker on for the next several years, this sounds like a great airplane.

[cliff]

Thank you all for your response. Advise taken. I think its better to proceed slowly, look at an aluminum and find one flying and in annual. Very happy I found Mooney Space.

[DAVIDWH]

As a previous owner of three Sitka Spruce wood wing  Bellanca Vikings, I decided to sell my last one and purchase a Mooney.

Reason, All the knowledgeable  Bellanca mechanics had retired  and were no longer available.

As Occar would say "Es la Vida".

 

[M20F]

22 minutes ago, DAVIDWH said:

As a previous owner of three Sitka Spruce wood wing  Bellanca Vikings, I decided to sell my last one and purchase a Mooney.

Reason, All the knowledgeable  Bellanca mechanics had retired  and were no longer available.

As Occar would say "Es la Vida".

 

The Bellanca Viking is an awesome plane but as you say just not the plane for me.  It is like a Bonanza comfort crossed with a Mooney efficiency, can’t beat that.  

[MikeOH]

Sounds like you’ve already decided to pretend your name is Forest

Good job!

[CaptainJack]

Hey Cliff -

I know you found your answer, but I'm in a similar boat (but the wings are not delaminating) and it's in a current annual. The airplane is hangared and it's in nice shape. I'm nervous about the wood wings now after reviewing this content. I'm located in Texas and about 2 hours from Kerrville, TX (not that it would matter). It's a friend of mine that is thinking about selling me his M20a - it's beautiful - but I'm nervous about the eventual end of life on the wings...  Should I just keep looking? 

[takair]

1 hour ago, CaptainJack said:

Hey Cliff -

I know you found your answer, but I'm in a similar boat (but the wings are not delaminating) and it's in a current annual. The airplane is hangared and it's in nice shape. I'm nervous about the wood wings now after reviewing this content. I'm located in Texas and about 2 hours from Kerrville, TX (not that it would matter). It's a friend of mine that is thinking about selling me his M20a - it's beautiful - but I'm nervous about the eventual end of life on the wings...  Should I just keep looking? 

Some other considerations are hangars.  Do you have a good hangar, preferably temp and humidity controlled?  As others have said, do you have access to a wood savvy mechanic.  These can be great collector planes....but they take a lot of care.  Some folks love to work on planes as much as fly them, if that is you, it may also be a good fit.  If you prefer flying in all kinds of weather and not worrying about the wood, then metal is better.

[CaptainJack]

11 minutes ago, takair said:

you prefer flying in all kinds of weather and not worrying about the wood, then metal is better

sigh... it's so nice too - but I really do want to fly in all weather (cold, hot, humid, wet...)

 

[takair]

47 minutes ago, CaptainJack said:

sigh... it's so nice too - but I really do want to fly in all weather (cold, hot, humid, wet...)

 

In fairness, the airplane can do it if maintained.  I was just suggesting that the maintenance may be greater than a metal wing.  I guess I would be more concerned about the storage.  My hangar landlord has a Bellanca Super Viking on a lift over my plane.  They make great IFR planes, but storage is an issue.  He does not even like the door open on a wet day.  I guess a few nights outside on a trip would not kill it.  If you really like it and can store it and maintain it, you should take a closer look.  It would be a great fly-in airplane....

[StevenL757]

On 2/19/2019 at 2:04 PM, gsxrpilot said:

Are you just betting back into flying? Or are you looking to get into building and restoration? If it's flying that you want to do, get and airplane that is currently flying, in annual, and a pre-buy inspection confirms that it is currently airworthy.

On the other hand, if you're retired, live in a hangar or on an airport, and are looking for a project to tinker on for the next several years, this sounds like a great airplane.

@cliff, In addition, can you talk a bit about your mission and ultimate aviation goals (besides getting back into flying again)?

Welcome aboard.

Steve

[mike20papa]

On 2/19/2019 at 7:29 AM, cliff said:

I have just started flying again after many years. Looking to buy my first plane - a 1959 Mooney M20A. It is out of annual but the engine I am told is strong with low hours. The problem with the aircraft is the glue bond between the wood and the aluminum on the wings has separated in about 10 spots on each wing.

I am told that the plane is flyable but needs to ne ferried. Anybody have any idea about what I am looking at in regards to cost and time?  Should I even pursue this plane?

As an '59 M20A owner/pilot - I 'll share a few thoughts.  First, there are no aluminum to wood glue joints anywhere on the airplane.  What I guess you mean is that there are some indication that the plywood wing skins have possibly delaminated from the underlying wood structure.  Ask how was this determined.  If you want to get a basic understanding of the construction & condition of the wing, I recommend you read the Mooney SB titled "Wood Structures"  20-170A.  To do a preliminary visual assessment, I'd remove the aft lower alum. panel that will allow you to inspect the aft face of the aft spar and inboard Flap hinge attachment brackets.  Also, you can remove the flaps and attempt to wiggle the brackets to check for any problems with delamination.  The wing is not sealed from the outside, except for a piece of tape under the top wing/fuselage fillet.  Often this tape is "long gone" and if the AC has seen outdoor tie-down, there could be problems.  Then you could proceed to remove the seats, and aft fuel tank to further check for problems with the aft spar.  This is the area that caused all of the original concerns with the wing - all related to outdoor tie-down.   Also, you can check the main spar and the steel tubing condition.  

The gear can be expensive to up-grade from the original Fire Stone biscuits to the Lord type.  Around 5K in parts if you do it yourself, and it's not a novice's job.  Check to see if this has been done.

All that said, I love the wood wing on my A model.  No "weeping" wet wing, no prone to inter-granular corrosion 7075-T6, no crevices and unprotected laminated metal faces to hold moisture and corrode, etc.   I cruise mine at 175 mph, it's seen lots of rough air and red line IAS.   But, they are not the "run of the mill" Mooney.  Joe, N8335E at KCFD