Darned Swiss Watch

[aviatoreb]

Well - I was hoping my KFC200 would hang on long enough to have time to carefully choose which of the beautiful new Digital autopilots to transition to without needing to throw good money after bad.  I am still partial to the GFC500.

My KI-256 heading indicator has gone belly up.  Pretty literally it has gone belly up.  I went up yesterday to fly some practice approaches in some beautiful severe clear crisp-white winter Sunday afternoon - no wind, 16F.  

Problem is my KI256 decided not to bother coming to attention for the ride. Actually it was very very creepy.  It was rolling around randomly from start up until about 15 min into the flight in an extremely creepy-distracting way.  Then at about 15 min it same to proper attention/attitude after a period of decreasing high speed oscillations.  Since it was a practice flight, and it was clearly the attitude indicator itself, rather than the vacuum pump - which I could tell because suction indication was good and also the HSI was performing fine - I decided to proceed as a matter of learning-practice what it was like flying with a bad attitude (the instrument - not me), on a clear day to see what it would do.  Well let me say even on the clear day it was so annoying I cannot imagine if that failure mode would happen in real IMC.  Once it came to attention btw the autopilot still worked perfectly. And before, while meandering, the autopilot was wacky trying to track a crazy drunk attitude indicator. (which I was only engaging then briefly).

So Now what?  Well I am not willing to wait 2-6 (or more??...what if its like a year?!) months to get a GFC500 - or if that were available now I would maybe just bring it into the shop and trade out the whole system.

If it is possible to replace the KI256 with a G5 I would do that - since I figure it is moving forward not throwing good money after bad.  But I don't think it is possible to have a G5 drive e the attitude on the KFC200 which is an attitude based autopilot and at least of the many posts on beech talk and here, from months ago, as of then it does not seem possible.

I don't want to get the ASPEN since what I really want is the GFC500 and they are not compatible.

So then - ugh - I think I will overhaul the KI256 one way or another and buy some time.

Ok - so who overhauls my KI256 and how much is that going to cost me?  Do I need to go through an avionics shop, or is it something the shop on the field can handle - r&r a simple unit - send it in?  Which would be easier and simpler by a lot (considering that going to an avionics shop involves flying to Burlington, dropping off the plane, renting a car one way twice for the 3 hour drive back - ah rural living..)

[aviatoreb]

Oh yeah - the last several flights - upon shut down, the spinning avionics were no longer making a lovely whir sound while spinning down, but instead something was making a slightly crunchy sounding WHIIIRBL sound and I was thinking hmmmm...I don't like that.  Now - clearly it was the KI256 having a bad day.

Oh - I always preheat the cabin when it is below 32F (as a random line in the sand to do that) (and separately I preheat the engine when below 40F).

[Oldguy]

Robert Bramble
Aerolab Aviation Services
www.aerolabaviation.com

FAA CRS#40RR239Y
8191 N Tamiami Trail
Hanger B-2
Sarasota, FL 34243
Ph: (913) 680-4169 

 

After he overhauled mine, I was amazed it spun up in about 5 seconds. didn't know they could do that!

[aviatoreb]

8 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

Robert Bramble
Aerolab Aviation Services
www.aerolabaviation.com

FAA CRS#40RR239Y
8191 N Tamiami Trail
Hanger B-2
Sarasota, FL 34243
Ph: (913) 680-4169 

 

After he overhauled mine, I was amazed it spun up in about 5 seconds. didn't know they could do that!

Thanks!  Did you have the R&R work done by an avionics shop or is this something that you think you can have done by the little shop on the field?

[Bob - S50]

Just something to keep in mind.  While getting the KI256 repaired may not be as expensive as having our pitch servo fixed, you could opt to go ahead and install the G5 and just fly the plane without an autopilot.  We've been hand flying for the better part of a year now.  I really think we are a matter of a month or two before the GFC500 is available to us.  We have ordered dual G5's and will plan to get on the installer's schedule for installation in late March or early April.  We are hoping that the GFC500 will be available before he is done with the G5 installation and we will be able to get it all done at once.

And a minor point, the KI525A HSI does not use vacuum.  It is electric.  So unless you have something else that uses vacuum, once you pull the KI256 you should also be able to pull the vacuum pump too.

[LANCECASPER]

28 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

rather than the vacuum pump - which I could tell because suction indication was good and also the HSI was performing fine

The HSI is electric.

[aviatoreb]

6 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

The HSI is electric.

Well - that shows what a dummy I have been all this time.  mea-culpa-dummy.  Thank you for enlightening me.  SO I have owned this airplane for 10 years and I had that information wrong.

Anyway I didn't mention that also turning on the electric backup-vacuum still didn't make the attitude happy - still took like 10 or 15 min to spin up.  And once it was it actually worked fine and so did the rest of the KFC200 autopilot in all functions, incl even coupling approach.  So I am thinking it is no other part of the KFC200 that are in trouble - just the attitude.  I would appreciate if anyone might have intel - that suggests there might be more to my failure mode than I am understanding.

[aviatoreb]

15 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

Just something to keep in mind.  While getting the KI256 repaired may not be as expensive as having our pitch servo fixed, you could opt to go ahead and install the G5 and just fly the plane without an autopilot.  We've been hand flying for the better part of a year now.  I really think we are a matter of a month or two before the GFC500 is available to us.  We have ordered dual G5's and will plan to get on the installer's schedule for installation in late March or early April.  We are hoping that the GFC500 will be available before he is done with the G5 installation and we will be able to get it all done at once.

And a minor point, the KI525A HSI does not use vacuum.  It is electric.  So unless you have something else that uses vacuum, once you pull the KI256 you should also be able to pull the vacuum pump too.

I have been thinking about that - since yesterday.  I am looking into that as well.  I can certainly hand fly for a few months with a G5 attitude.  

My worry about doing that route, is in my experience, whenever I (we) are the first to be installed avionics at a shop, it may well end up being a longer install time, so more expensive.  So erasing any savings by not doing the KI256 and waiting until the GFC500 is available.  

If I were not in this boat as of yesterday, and supposing the GFC500 becomes available in say April, or May, I would have sooner have had the GF500 installed in say July.  But now i am hearing that avionics shops are backlogging because of the 2020-transponder mandate.  So if I get this KI256 repaired, maybe I will just wait until next winter to do the GFC500.  Thus amortizing a little bit the repair cost anyway.

[Marauder]

I think you should call Peter Garmin up and see if the warehouse doors are open at Bendix King.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[mooneyflyfast]

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Disclaimer:  I know nothing about this shop but the price is right.

[Oldguy]

48 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Thanks!  Did you have the R&R work done by an avionics shop or is this something that you think you can have done by the little shop on the field?

My mechanic did this for me.

[m20kmooney]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

My KI-256 heading indicator has gone belly up.

Your KI256 is not a heading indicator. It’s an attitude indicator. More precisely a flight command indicator since you have the KFC200. It is vacuum driven and provides attitude teference to the autopilot. This is a totally different system than the KCS55A which is your compass system. This is all electric and your HSI is a part of that. A lot of people confuse this and go ripping out components without knowing what they are doing.

Edited February 18, 2019 by m20kmooney

[aviatoreb]

1 minute ago, m20kmooney said:

Your KI256 is not a heading indicator. It’s an attitude indicator. More precisely a flight command indicator since you have the KFC200. This is a totally different system than the KCS55A which your HSI is part of and all electric. 

Thanks.  My use of language was not sharp or correct on that point.  I am well aware that it is the attitude indicator but I am used to "thinking of iit" as a heading indicator since it gives me command bars.  So it tells me which way to "head" as the human if I am hand flying.

[m20kmooney]

4 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Thanks.  My use of language was not sharp or correct on that point.  I am well aware that it is the attitude indicator but I am used to "thinking of iit" as a heading indicator since it gives me command bars.  So it tells me which way to "head" as the human if I am hand flying.

The flight director command bars don’t tell you which way to “head.” They are overlaid on your attitude indicator and show you the “attitude” required to follow a selected and precise path in 3d space. Nothing to do with heading. 

[LANCECASPER]

47 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I have been thinking about that - since yesterday.  I am looking into that as well.  I can certainly hand fly for a few months with a G5 attitude.  

My worry about doing that route, is in my experience, whenever I (we) are the first to be installed avionics at a shop, it may well end up being a longer install time, so more expensive.  So erasing any savings by not doing the KI256 and waiting until the GFC500 is available.  

If I were not in this boat as of yesterday, and supposing the GFC500 becomes available in say April, or May, I would have sooner have had the GF500 installed in say July.  But now i am hearing that avionics shops are backlogging because of the 2020-transponder mandate.  So if I get this KI256 repaired, maybe I will just wait until next winter to do the GFC500.  Thus amortizing a little bit the repair cost anyway.

As far as capability, your KFC200 was top of the line at the time and still offers features that some of the new autopilots don't.  Yes it's getting older, but if you only let people that really know the unit work on it, it's a great autopilot. The weakest link, as you know, is the KI256. I'd be more inclined to get that fixed and see what all happens in the next couple years.

[aviatoreb]

13 minutes ago, m20kmooney said:

The flight director command bars don’t tell you which way to “head.” They are overlaid on your attitude indicator and show you the “attitude” required to follow a selected and precise path in 3d space. Nothing to do with heading. 

I’m speaking English and you are speaking semantics and we are managing to not communicate.  I already apologized for not using the correct phrase and in so doing I gave the English interpretation I was using.  I won’t again.

Edited February 18, 2019 by aviatoreb

[aviatoreb]

4 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

As far as capability, your KFC200 was top of the line at the time and still offers features that some of the new autopilots don't.  Yes it's getting older, but if you only let people that really know the unit work on it, it's a great autopilot. The weakest link, as you know, is the KI256. I'd be more inclined to get that fixed and see what all happens in the next couple years.

I agree! Thanks!

[N201MKTurbo]

I wonder what it would take certification wise to get a solid state replacement certified? It wouldn't be that hard to build one these days. Considering that Garmin can't get the G5 certified as an autopilot attitude reference, I have to think the bar is pretty high.

[KLRDMD]

10 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Considering that Garmin can't get the G5 certified as an autopilot attitude reference, I have to think the bar is pretty high.

Can't or won't ?

[m20kmooney]

54 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I’m speaking English and you are speaking semantics and we are managing to not communicate.  I already apologized for not using the correct phrase and in so doing I gave the English interpretation I was using.  I won’t again.

I’m not speaking semantics! I’m explaining your instruments to you so you get a clear understanding. No need for you to apologize. You’re welcome!

Edited February 18, 2019 by m20kmooney

[KSMooniac]

Can't or won't ?

Won't! They did certify the G5 as an attitude reference for THEIR autopilot, the GFC500. They surely could make it work for legacy systems with an adapter (like the GAD43) but apparently chose not to do so in favor of selling their autopilot. Previously they didn't have a retrofit autopilot to sell, so selling an adapter was wise. You can still choose that option today with a G500 system...or wait for the GFC.

Erik, if I were you, I'd have your local mechanic pull the 256 (30 minute job, tops) and send it to Bob Bramble for IRAN. That ought to buy you enough time to wait for the GFC, and you can probably sell it when you're ready for at least what you pay Bob if I had to guess.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[aviatoreb]

24 minutes ago, m20kmooney said:

I’m not speaking semantics! I’m explaining your instruments to you so you get a clear understanding. No need for you to apologize. You’re welcome!

And I explained the manner of language in which I misspoke.  So explaining how when I explained my misspeak I was misspeaking my explanation of my misspeak is technically incorrect and false precision.  Since a misspeak is by its definition a misspeak.

[aviatoreb]

9 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Won't! They did certify the G5 as an attitude reference for THEIR autopilot, the GFC500. They surely could make it work for legacy systems with an adapter (like the GAD43) but apparently chose not to do so in favor of selling their autopilot. Previously they didn't have a retrofit autopilot to sell, so selling an adapter was wise. You can still choose that option today with a G500 system...or wait for the GFC.

Erik, if I were you, I'd have your local mechanic pull the 256 (30 minute job, tops) and send it to Bob Bramble for IRAN. That ought to buy you enough time to wait for the GFC, and you can probably sell it when you're ready for at least what you pay Bob if I had to guess.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk
 

Which business is Bob?

do you suspect an Iran would be cheaper than an OH?

[carusoam]

Summary...

0) Sounds like.... the tiny bearings have decided to go on holiday...

1) Bob Bramble is the known resource for OH of the Swiss watch particles...

2) Have local guy remove, box, and send out...

3) Expect a full OH to be priced in AMUs..? (Unknown resource started at 1amu)

4) A brilliant mathematician May not be a perfect writer... all the time. 

5) Speaking of classic literature...  Waiting for the next device to become certified and available is like waiting for that guy Godot.

6) Waiting for the next device from BK would make you want to gnaw a limb off...

7) Wish Peter was here for this....  https://www.bendixking.com/en/products/aeroflight and this....

https://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/ki300  but be aware of this not being ready yet... https://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/ka310-autopilot-adapter

8) If it is just the bearings.... Iran is probably the way to go... (B B can probably help with the decision)

9) Buying up a G5 can be a good idea... there is a ready market for it if you decide to not use it long term....

10 PP thoughts of what I read here...

Best regards,

-a-

[N201MKTurbo]

42 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

Can't or won't ?

Probably a little bit of both. The FAA would probably want them to certify it with each individual autopilot. That is a lot of work just to kill some future autopilot sales.