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Got into ice today


ragedracer1977

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If this keeps up, I will block Jim just so I don't have to read his repeated put-downs of both Mooney aircraft and Mooney pilots. He has an advanced case of "Big Iron Disease":  anything that isn't a multiengine turbojet with multiple backups for everything is a deathtrap, and should be parked in anything but ideal weather.

20 knot wind is not a problem. There are places in the country [obviously not near Jim's home in Florida] where 20 knot wind is considered a calm morning. What matters to me is the combination of wind strength and runway alignment. 20 knots down the runway is no problem at all, just turn base a little early. Al Mooney lived and worked in Texas and Kansas, and designed, built and flew all of his planes in that area. His 20th design was designed and built to handle that.

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34 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

Nice Job.....

Unfortunately many pilots on here would consider you to be a pussy because you do have an instrument rating and that makes you invincible.

Has anyone told you that your attitude sucks?? Because right now, it is sucking really badly.

Take a break, calm down and come back when you can stop talking down your obviously superior, jet-powered nose.

Seriously. Take a break, see you in a couple days.

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Summary... a tough one....

1) Some people really know what they are doing....

2) Experts share their knowledge and encouragement...

3) I appreciate the links of various weather sites and charts on how people make their decisions so I can better my own...

4) Where the wings fall off in this thread...

  • It’s  not just what you write...
  • It’s also how you write it...

5) Looking back at this thread...

  • the local news guys will say...
  • a pro-pilot calls his personal plane a lawn mower...
  • He wouldn’t fly in these conditions...
  • why would a novice take these risks..?
  • the hopes and dreams of GA die quickly with this type of banter...

6) The pro-pilot looks back and says...

  • i told you so...
  • i had good ideas...
  • i wasn’t able to express them properly...
  • i didn’t mean that...
  • ooops, my bad...

7) The FAA sets our limits...

  • Are they too loose?
  • would we want them tighter?
  • Should we make more training mandatory so Brice doesn’t take these known acceptable risks any longer?

8) When you are a person in a position to speak from a platform... think about the side effects of what you are saying...

9) Things happen...

  • We run out of gas
  • We fly VFR into IMC 

We graduate, we go on to get an IR...

  • We fly into thunderstorms
  • We fly into icing

Our planes are more than capable to avoid the onset of these issues.  Our pilots are more than trained in how to get out of these situations. Recognize, decide, execute... don’t wait...

10) what limits our freedom... is a pro-pilot who accidently says he wouldn’t do that, so you shouldn’t either...

11) Don’t worry about one person raising another person’s insurance rate... that can’t happen...  like one person’s excellent flying skills couldn’t lower everyone else’s insurance....  Capitalism works...

12) I should get a discount because pro pilots fly Mooneys quite safely... they can be very safe, so I could be too....

  • here you go mr. carusoam here’s your discount because Jim’s a great pilot....
  • how many hours do you have? This year? Last 90 days....?
  • The discount gets pulled, because you haven’t had a GU landing yet.... (you’re the other type of pilot...)

13) Don’t be angry with people that have difficulty putting their words in order.... try to help them with their individual challenges...

14) Know that we are all human beings... there is plenty of room for improvement... in our flying, preparation, and in our discussions...

15) Focus on the challenge, not the individual...

16) Here’s to Brice!

  • You brought forth an interesting flight situation.
  • You handled it well.  
  • You shared it with the MS community.
  • You handled the backlash admirably.

Way to go, Brice!

 

17) I have also been a fan of...

  • white water canoeing in high, cold water in April...
  • flying in strong winds to practice my skills... 35kts down the runway, in a fully loaded M20C....
  • using a runway that needed x-wind controls, when another runway was better suited...
  • running.... which is not always good for your health...  :)

18) If a guy had a heart-attack already... then went out for a jog after he recovered.... will a Pro-Pilot’s health insurance get raised?  Not with capitalism in control....

 

Briefly...

Watch what you say... and how you say it... that CAN affect a lot of people...

If nothing else, it helps keep people from hitting the ignore button...

Some people just don’t know when to let up....  (me included. :))

Go MS!

Best regards,

-a-

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I would think airline pilots would give a pirep if they were picking up ice. A airliner may not pick up ice when your getting ice. Some large jets don't anti-ice the tails and only the outboard parts of the leading edge devices. A pirep from a large jet for ice or turb tells me not to fly my airplane in that area. It is a great thing that you posted this flight because we all learn from your experience !!!!!

 

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59 minutes ago, Hank said:

20 knot wind is not a problem. There are places in the country [obviously not near Jim's home in Florida] where 20 knot wind is considered a calm morning. What matters to me is the combination of wind strength and runway alignment. 20 knots down the runway is no problem at all, just turn base a little early. Al Mooney lived and worked in Texas and Kansas, and designed, built and flew all of his planes in that area. His 20th design was designed and built to handle that.

20 knot winds down the runway, or close to runway heading are great, it just seems like it takes forever to get to the runway on final.

Image result for wyoming wind sock

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5 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

I probably would  not have gone just based on the winds in that TAF....let alone the potential to ice up. Put the two together and still go? 

 

Genuinely curious about the issue you have with winds? 

 

1 hour ago, peevee said:

No.

I think he understands how poorly equipped most ga planes are. OP has defrost, and pitot heat. What if he doesn't have an alternate air door and his filter or induction ices? What happens to his defrost at low power settings on the approach? Do you want to land in those winds with an iced up stall horn? I have pretty redundant systems for ga (dual alt, dual ahrs, dual adcs) and tks and I wouldn't have touched that. Awful lot of invincibility going around here today. There's a lot more to ice than keeping the airframe clean.

FYI, All M20s have an alternate air door in the induction system. 

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Ok... i’ll Swing the bat here...

as a pro-pilot (well... someone that gets paid to fly as my primary job, anyway)...

It sounds to me like the plan was adequate- and let me know if I’m missing something...

the pilot planned an IFR flight in VMC.  The terminal area had a layer between 5-9K, but with VMC prevailing for ~4500’ below said layer.  Freezing layer was forecast just below the tops of the clouds.  Gusty winds, but nothing outside the relm or workable if they were down the runway (0 crosswind component).  No sigmets/airmets for icing.  No pireps for icing.  

I would have made this trip- with the “escape plan” being a descent to warmer air should I pickup ice (unforecast!) on the approach.  Which is exactly what the OP did.

Things that would cause me to cancel this flight: known ice in the terminal area (pireps showing ice and altitudes associated with them).  A freezing layer to the ground (ie- no “out” either below, or geographically).  

In this case, the pilot was legal, and had mitigated risk by having a plan to get out of any icing should it occur.  

Seriously- this particular case is pretty cut and dry in my mind and probably the limit of how I personally employ my own light civil in the winter (and mine has tks-anti ice)... but I don’t think it was anything crazy, unsafe or illegal.  The key here being that the pilot is VMC for the majority of the flight, The cloud exposure time is exceptionally small, the freezing layer is all the way up at the top of the cloud deck, and a safe, warm escape exists in the 3-4K’ of VMC conditions below the lowest decks (and probably throughout the lower cloud mass as well below the FL)

JMHO

 

Edited by M016576
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17 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I’ve seen that. Is or Rawlings or Larime? 

That's just an image I grabbed online so not sure where it is located. Seems that they have a few of them scattered around Wyoming, including outside the National Weather Service office in Cheyenne. 

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rethinking this I would say that's fine for anyone.  Probably throw some touch and gos in there for fun as well.
 
 

Out of curiosity so no one can put words in your mouth. What are your personal minimums? In all aspects of flight, and airplanes? Have you ever had a no go during your professional career?

I have my IR check ride coming up and would like some points of reference.


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Regarding jet pilots reporting icing, we had a relevant round-trip this weekend - LL10 (Naperville, IL) to KMIE (Muncie, IN).  On top both ways, tops 4000 ish, temp -6C.

Reported negative ice on the approach (which was a mess the way I flew it).  on the return, got only a trace south of MDW in the descent, but a Delta pilot reported light ice in the tops in the same area.  sometimes it is *very* localized. Jet must have passed through a glob of very moist air.  I didn't.

For the OP: I lean heavily on the icing models available at aviation weather dot gov.  My plane is FIKI, and as I've stated here before, I think going into previously identified or forecast icing conditions in a non-protected aircraft is foolish.  The flight as described sounds like a true inadvertent flight if no airmets or pireps.  With good VFR above freezing below you, you had an out.  I would have made the PIREP of ice, though in an unprotected plane, the characterization of the ice worse than trace or maybe light don't really have any meaning. 

Some things to consider if you've encountered icing:

  • Minimum airspeed is 120 KIAS, and this applies to an approach as much as to a climb.  I don't know if this limit is only for TKS coverage or not, but why do what they say not to in FIKI planes?
  • If ice has been encountered and is suspected to be on the plane, max flaps setting is t/o.  This is for FIKI long bodies, and i believe it is about the full flaps blanking out the ice contaminated elevator and causing your plane to lawn dart.
  • Pitot heat is easy to forget.

Twins vs singles for FIKI?  I'll stick with my Acclaim S over a legacy twin with old radios, vacuum pumps keeping me ice free and upright, and twice the likelihood of engine failure.  Diffrent strokes for different folks. DA42/62, G58 Baron, or Glass panel legacy twin? Probably prefer those (especially the Diamond or Baron) .  But it's more the avionics and situational awareness than number of engines for me.  

-de

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4 hours ago, xcrmckenna said:


Out of curiosity so no one can put words in your mouth. What are your personal minimums? In all aspects of flight, and airplanes? Have you ever had a no go during your professional career?

I have my IR check ride coming up and would like some points of reference.


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In my day job I am to FOM/FAR/contractual limits.  As long as the plane has no issues and both of us feel good and there is a plan B.  Is what I am about to do safe legal and make sense?

In the wild west world of single engine airplanes where almost everything may be pencil whipped I would say it just depends on the day and if I am in my plane or someone else's.  But to generalize I am not going to intentionally fly into any conditions where there is even a slight possibility of ice or in IMC without having the ability to circle down below the clouds to find a landing field.  I have been there and done that when I was young and dumb and it all comes down to that saying that you are better off being on the ground wishing you were in the air vs being in the air and wishing you were on the ground.  Have those experience many times over and at some point your name will be in the obituaries.  

I occasionally fly at night.  Maybe once every two years in a single if for some reason I got caught out for reasons beyond my control.  I never plan a trip to fly at night. And everything better be working in the plane 100%. Hotels are cheaper than funerals.  

No hi winds.  Can I handle the Mooney in 30+ knot winds....yes but at some point the luck and skill will run out and Penn Yang and Hartzell will be taking my money.  I rather keep it for other stuff like Avgas and massages in Asia.

Will I ever do an approach in my plane to minimums?  Perhaps if its totally unforecasted but in 5 years of ownership I have yet to do one and by following my higher minimums I doubt I will.  I did put all the odds in my favor with my panel for it is incase my judgement goes to hell and plan B or C disolved.

People get upset that I call it a flying lawn mower.  I wonder what the people who have lost engines at 300 feet and made off airport landings would call it?  Or the families who lost loved ones would call it?  GA is the Wild West and we really have no idea how they are maintained, except for the few gear heads here who do their own mx and also know what they are doing....most of the time those are not one in the same.

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Maybe you guys can help me. After 28 years of ownership, I am thinking about dropping some serious change on a new paint job. Just not sure what scheme to use? I was thinking maybe a John Deere green, but Cub Cadet yellow has always been a favorite. Not sure I am happy staying with the Toro red. Any thoughts?

flyinglawnmower.jpg.0c534beb485bfde3638e96ca8103e6e3.jpg

 

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25 minutes ago, Danb said:

Jim you are certainly conservative Sir. No disrespect intended.

None taken. Don’t get me wrong. I love GA. Where I live proves it. I live on an airport. All my neighbors are pilots and owners. I am typing this on my iPhone watching planes takeoff and land enjoying 80 degree temps at night. 

I want all of you to come and experience this. I found pilot heaven. 

I think we had 44000 take offs and landing last year. 

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1 hour ago, peevee said:

Fyi I said what if he didn't.

 

Given that would not be possible, it’s about as relevant as uh...well I’m at a loss to imagine something less relevant than applying an impossible scenario.

“Well Captain, what if you’re Falcon X didn’t have anti-ice”

”Well actually, all Falcons are equipped with anti-ice”

”Are you deaf, I SAID WHAT IF”

 

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2 hours ago, M016576 said:

Ok... i’ll Swing the bat here...

as a pro-pilot (well... someone that gets paid to fly as my primary job, anyway)...

It sounds to me like the plan was adequate- and let me know if I’m missing something...

the pilot planned an IFR flight in VMC.  The terminal area had a layer between 5-9K, but with VMC prevailing for ~4500’ below said layer.  Freezing layer was forecast just below the tops of the clouds.  Gusty winds, but nothing outside the relm or workable if they were down the runway (0 crosswind component).  No sigmets/airmets for icing.  No pireps for icing.  

I would have made this trip- with the “escape plan” being a descent to warmer air should I pickup ice (unforecast!) on the approach.  Which is exactly what the OP did.

Things that would cause me to cancel this flight: known ice in the terminal area (pireps showing ice and altitudes associated with them).  A freezing layer to the ground (ie- no “out” either below, or geographically).  

In this case, the pilot was legal, and had mitigated risk by having a plan to get out of any icing should it occur.  

Seriously- this particular case is pretty cut and dry in my mind and probably the limit of how I personally employ my own light civil in the winter (and mine has tks-anti ice)... but I don’t think it was anything crazy, unsafe or illegal.  The key here being that the pilot is VMC for the majority of the flight, The cloud exposure time is exceptionally small, the freezing layer is all the way up at the top of the cloud deck, and a safe, warm escape exists in the 3-4K’ of VMC conditions below the lowest decks (and probably throughout the lower cloud mass as well below the FL)

JMHO

 

This was exactly my thought process.  

And I want to be clear, I posted this not because I think it was "neat" but to demonstrate that even with what I thought was a pretty safe plan, I still found ice and to document what I did when it happened. 

I knew there would be a couple folks who couldn't help themselves and would act like they always do, but I'm not afraid to post my mistakes so that others learning after me can come here and find examples and file it away in their library of how and why things happen.  

So, it's fine with me that I got attacked.  And called inappropriate names.  I knew what I was getting in to.

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8 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

So, it's fine with me that I got attacked.  And called inappropriate names.  I knew what I was getting in to.

Sounds like you may be married.

It is all in fun and to not read about more deaths.....

There needs to be some sarcasm and other fonts here.....

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So the real question is would you make a similar flight again?  I would have a hard time answering that. Many times icing is widespread (especially descending through layers) so the 180 escape would not do much good.  Could the plane carrying ice climb back on top?  What if control had you hold in an icing layer for traffic?  

I don’t think anyone is criticizing the steps you took after entering ice. I think everyone is just expressing things can go downhill quickly with very few get down safe options. 

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17 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

Sounds like you may be married.

It is all in fun and to not read about more deaths.....

There needs to be some sarcasm and other fonts here.....

No, my friend, I'd say your sarcasm comes in loud and clear.  :mellow:  It really encourages people to listen to you.

Yes, that was sarcasm too.

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