Boneheaded mistake

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, Dan at FUL said:

I did the same thing departing OSH this year.  Mix of distractions and non-standard operations leading to my own carelessness.  Due to the long taxi on rough grass at OSH, I had the trim max back.  

I think my nose rose faster than @jaylw314 did in his video, so I was reacting sooner.  I was correctly trimmed before the mains left the ground.  

Lesson (re-)learned about distractions.

I didn't even trim until I was above 500 feet or so.  The yoke pressure wasn't terrible, it was just surprising and fast

[N201MKTurbo]

I could say I'm a very experienced pilot with an ATP and a zillion hours in Mooneys and I'm too good a pilot to ever take off with the trim set wrong. But I can't.

Just remember if the stick forces are too much for you, just throttle back to 15 inches and the plane will fly straight and level with little forward stick required.

[Marauder]

C.I.G.A.R.S. I fly many types of planes.... and the "last guy" probably didn't reset anything. This has kept me from getting into too much trouble....... and has worked from everything from the little taylorcraft to the learjet.
Run your approved checklist at the appropriate time, for this is just a mental check, and most times, especially when I change plane types, I'll run it 2 or even 3 times as I taxi and line up.
C- controls free and correct
I- Instruments set
G- gas on and appropriate tank
A- Attitude ..... Flaps and trims set
R- radios set (& GPS)
S- Seatbelts and switches (lights, arm spoilers, wing/inlet heat, etc) 
These things will at least let you takeoff, and get some altitude before you have to figure something out. Hopefully without annoying ATC too much. and if nothing else, enter the pattern and land to shut that cabin door that was forgotten about!
And good on ya Jay..... you instinctively followed rule number 1! FLY THE DAMN AIRPLANE! 
 

I do a version of this call LIFT

L - lights
I - instruments
F - fuel pump, flaps
T - trim, transponder (the transponder has been moot point lately with a transponder than goes into ground mode automatically and then in air mode by itself).

I run a flow followed by a checklist. My after landing checklist includes resetting the trim.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[RLCarter]

3 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

A couple people were wondering why the full nose up trim.  This had come up in a previous thread, but I can't recall where.  Our ramp and taxiways are pretty rough and bouncy, and I've been trying to keep as much weight as possible off the nose while taxiing.  The nose up trim makes pulling the yoke all the way back much easier.

The yoke would have much better results, just not enough throw in the trim to make a difference 

[Shadrach]

12 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

So I've been experimenting with keeping full nose up elevator trim while taxiing.  I've been worried about missing this, and I finally missed it this weekend.  Weirdly, my POH checklist has setting the elevator trim on the runup checklist rather than the takeoff checklist.  I had just refueled, so I didn't do my complete runup checklist, and it was super cold here (well, for Oregon anyway), which contributed to my distraction.  This led to the rather surprising sudden and premature nose rotation and stall warning.  Luckily I reacted fast enough, but that was certainly not an outcome I was looking for.

After cleaning out my underwear and kicking myself, I figure at the very least I need to move setting the elevator trim to my takeoff checklist rather than my runup checklist.  More importantly, I need to make a note to add cold weather to my list of potential distractions that are worth slowing down for...

 

I typically land with full aft trim if I'm alone or have a single passenger.  I have on occasion taken the runway with full up trim.  As you get more accustomed to your aircraft, the position of the yoke will likely cue you in to a full aft trim situation.  That being said, there's no need to use the check lists that you're using.  Feel free to modify/improve upon them.   It's a good idea to check all controls and trim just before entering the runway.  If your, list/flow doesn't cover that, you might want to consider modifying.

Edited February 13, 2019 by Shadrach

[jaylw314]

13 minutes ago, RLCarter said:

The yoke would have much better results, just not enough throw in the trim to make a difference 

The trim changes the angle of the horizontal stab (less throw but more area), but IIRC there is also a bungie spring assist for the elevator that helps pull the yoke back.

3 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I typically land with full aft trim if I'm alone or have a single passenger.  I have on occasion taken the runway with full up trim.  As you get more accustomed to your aircraft, the position of the yoke will likely cue you in to a full aft trim situation.  That being said, there's no need to use the check lists that you're using.  Feel free to modify/improve upon them.   It's a good idea to check all controls and trim just before entering the runway.  If your, list/flow doesn't cover that, you might want to consider modifying.

The sad and embarrassing part was that the idea of doing this made me look at my checklists (which I printed and laminated) and realized I should move the trim to the takeoff checklist.  However, since printing and laminating them were kind of a pain, I delayed doing it until I figured out if I wanted to change it.  Needless to say, I do want to change it now

[Shadrach]

15 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

The trim changes the angle of the horizontal stab (less throw but more area), but IIRC there is also a bungie spring assist for the elevator that helps pull the yoke back.

The sad and embarrassing part was that the idea of doing this made me look at my checklists (which I printed and laminated) and realized I should move the trim to the takeoff checklist.  However, since printing and laminating them were kind of a pain, I delayed doing it until I figured out if I wanted to change it.  Needless to say, I do want to change it now

A Mooney is classified as a complex aircraft but it's not really that complex.  Having to run two checklists prior to take off seems needlessly complicated.  A checklist is not supposed to be a "to do" list, it's there to verify a task has been completed after the fact.  I have seen ridiculous checklists in rental aircraft.  I used to rent a 172 that spelled out every step of the engine run up. That might be beneficial to a student that's so green they need their hand held through every step, but it's not great SOP to read and complete.  Best to develop a flow, cut the checklist down to the essentials and run it just before requesting take off clearance.

Edited February 13, 2019 by Shadrach

[steingar]

7 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Good reason to wait to put the gear up until you have some altitude.

Can't.  Wait too long and the forces grow too much.  And no one wants to climb out at 80 mph, kinda hard on the engine.

Most Mooney pilots with J-bar airplanes retract the gear as soon as possible.

[DXB]

Taxi with full nose up trim if ones field is plagued with ruts doesn't seem like a crazy idea. I think there's been a couple of prop strikes described here because of ruts on the ramp.  Resetting trim should be part of ones before takeoff check every time anyway. 

The J bar is indeed hard to stow at higher speeds so nearly everyone with this gear system retracts pretty early.  

[N201MKTurbo]

32 minutes ago, steingar said:

Can't.  Wait too long and the forces grow too much.  And no one wants to climb out at 80 mph, kinda hard on the engine.

Most Mooney pilots with J-bar airplanes retract the gear as soon as possible.

I owned a J bar Mooney for 19 years. You should never rush to put the gear up. Why do you think it is hard on the engine? Early Mooneys were tremendously over cooled. Do you have cooling issues? I will admit that the view out the window is pretty crappy. I never had any problem retracting the gear at normal climb speeds.

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

A Mooney is classified as a complex aircraft but it's not really that complex.  Having to run two checklists prior to take off seems needlessly complicated.  A checklist is not supposed to be a "to do" list, it's there to verify a task has been completed after the fact.  I have seen ridiculous checklists in rental aircraft.  I used to rent a 172 that spelled out every step of the engine run up. That might be beneficial to a student that's so green they need their hand held through every step, but it's not great SOP to read and complete.  Best to develop a flow, cut the checklist down to the essentials and run it just before requesting take off clearance.

I actually want a separate runup and takeoff checklist, because I won't do the runup every takeoff, but I will take off on every takeoff.  Hmm, that sounded more intelligent when it was still in my head.

There are some things I want to ensure I do every takeoff, while I want the items on the runup checklist to be on the first takeoff or discretionary.

[Shadrach]

5 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I actually want a separate runup and takeoff checklist, because I won't do the runup every takeoff, but I will take off on every takeoff.  Hmm, that sounded more intelligent when it was still in my head.

There are some things I want to ensure I do every takeoff, while I want the items on the runup checklist to be on the first takeoff or discretionary.

Why not just have a line that says "runup" on then the pre take off checklist?  I mean do you really need the run up spelled out? You can always treat it as "not applicable" for those take offs where it's deliberately not being performed.  I'm starting to sense that you might be a bit more OCD than me about  spelling out procedures and checklists.  That might be a good thing...just remember to pay as much attention to what the airplane is doing/telling you as you pay to checking off list items.

[midlifeflyer]

15 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Why not just have a line that says "runup" on then the pre take off checklist?  I mean do you really need the run up spelled out? You can always treat it as "not applicable" for those take offs where it's deliberately not being performed.  I'm starting to sense that you might be a bit more OCD than me about  spelling out procedures and checklists.  That might be a good thing...just remember to pay as much attention to what the airplane is doing/telling you as you pay to checking off list items.

The difference consists entirely of one extra line of text and a space. Not a big deal either way. It's similar to having a Descent/In Range checklist heading and a Before Landing heading. Some don't care. Others find it useful. Personal choice with no "better" or "worse" value.

I've always personalized my checklists, significantly condensing certain procedures and expanding others. One day the checklist in a rental was missing and a friend asked to use mine. He found it unusable.

Edited February 13, 2019 by midlifeflyer

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Why not just have a line that says "runup" on then the pre take off checklist?  I mean do you really need the run up spelled out? You can always treat it as "not applicable" for those take offs where it's deliberately not being performed.  I'm starting to sense that you might be a bit more OCD than me about  spelling out procedures and checklists.  That might be a good thing...just remember to pay as much attention to what the airplane is doing/telling you as you pay to checking off list items.

Me?  Obsessive?  Naaaaah

[EricJ]

7 hours ago, tangogawd said:

C.I.G.A.R.S. I fly many types of planes.... and the "last guy" probably didn't reset anything. This has kept me from getting into too much trouble....... and has worked from everything from the little taylorcraft to the learjet.

Run your approved checklist at the appropriate time, for this is just a mental check, and most times, especially when I change plane types, I'll run it 2 or even 3 times as I taxi and line up.

C- controls free and correct

I- Instruments set

G- gas on and appropriate tank

A- Attitude ..... Flaps and trims set

R- radios set (& GPS)

S- Seatbelts and switches (lights, arm spoilers, wing/inlet heat, etc) 

These things will at least let you takeoff, and get some altitude before you have to figure something out. Hopefully without annoying ATC too much. and if nothing else, enter the pattern and land to shut that cabin door that was forgotten about!

And good on ya Jay..... you instinctively followed rule number 1! FLY THE DAMN AIRPLANE! 

 

I learned CIGARS and CIFFTRS as a teenager (a, ahem, few years ago), and for some reason CIFFTRS just always stuck in my head...and is still there many decades later.

Controls

Instruments - altimeter set and correct, hdg bug set, anything configured that needs to be.

Fuel - quantities, proper tank, pump status.

Flaps - takeoff setting

Trim - the order here is good to do the flaps and trim together in the mooney since the indicators are together.    Can also add the T for transponder here if desired.

Runup (and/or radios)

Seatbelts 

If you look at them, CIGARS and CIFFTRS do the same things in pretty much the same order, they're just different mnemonics to get there.   I stuck a bunch of checklists in my IFD540 but haven't used them much yet.   My printed pre-start and CIFFTRS checklists cover nearly everything to get me going, but I'm always trying to sort out how to improve flow/reliability.

 

[MikeOH]

11 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Ditto for me.

Ditto the ditto

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

The difference consists entirely of one extra line of text and a space. Not a big deal either way. It's similar to having a Descent/In Range checklist heading and a Before Landing heading. Some don't care. Others find it useful. Personal choice with no "better" or "worse" value.

I've always personalized my checklists, significantly condensing certain procedures and expanding others. One day the checklist in a rental was missing and a friend asked to use mine. He found it unusable.

My reference was to Jay having two pre-take off checklists one for run up and one before crossing the hold short line.  I'm not telling anyone what's better or worse. I'm merely expressing the opinion that focusing on flows and having a single pre takeoff check list seems like a better solution than having things divided into two lists.  The genesis of the thread had to do with not trimming the aircraft because a run up was not done and the run up  checklist wasn't compleated.

[LANCECASPER]

5 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I typically land with full aft trim

I used to but don't anymore. A few years back I had to do a last minute go around since there was a pickup crossing the runway at an airport I used to base at. The go-around was a handful with full aft trim and I didn't like how behind-the-airplane I was. (In the Bravo I never land with Right Rudder Trim but always take off with it, so I was all over the place with that and full aft trim.) Now I land about half way between the T/O setting and full aft.

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I owned a J bar Mooney for 19 years. You should never rush to put the gear up. Why do you think it is hard on the engine? Early Mooneys were tremendously over cooled. Do you have cooling issues? I will admit that the view out the window is pretty crappy. I never had any problem retracting the gear at normal climb speeds.

None of the C models I've flown in seemed "over cooled" in the climb.  Injected models absolutely.  I'm struggling to keep some CHTs over 300 in full rich climb on some cylinders this time of year.

[Shadrach]

Just now, LANCECASPER said:

I used to but don't anymore. A few years back I had to do a last minute go around since there was a pickup crossing the runway at an airport I used to base at, The go-around was a handful with full aft trim and I didn't like how behind-the-airplane I was, Now I land about half way between the T/O setting and full aft.

It doesn't bother me,. I've practiced it ad nauseam in every configuration and it's expected on a go around.

[Niko182]

For runup, I use CIGARSCE. The 2 last being CB's and Emergency gear latch (learned that one the hard way. Took of and couldn't figure out the gear didn't go up)

Then when lining up, I do
-LIGHTS
-CAMERA (Mixture)
-ATTITUDE
-ACTION
 

So far, thats worked great for me.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

My reference was to Jay having two pre-take off checklists one for run up and one before crossing the hold short line.  I'm not telling anyone what's better or worse. I'm merely expressing the opinion that focusing on flows and having a single pre takeoff check list seems like a better solution than having things divided into two lists.  The genesis of the thread had to do with not trimming the aircraft because a run up was not done and the run up  checklist wasn't compleated.

We may be talking apples and oranges. Where I see a run up checklist and a before takeoff checklist, you see two before takeoff checklists. You see them as part of  the same thing. I see two separate flows which can either be combined or not.

[carusoam]

Interesting summary...

Depending on how strong your memory is.... and how strong your left arm is...

1) We have flows and checklists....

2) If your check list is so short, like a C152... Lights, Camera, Action.... you have it completely memorized, it is a challenge to make a mistake....

3) If your check list is a page long for the pre-take off part...

• The flow captures most, if not all of it... the checklist is the back-up to make sure you did every step in the flow.... 
• If you use the page long checklist as a to do list.... you can easily skip a step without noticing...
• Once the engine is running... there is a lot going on, inside and outside of the cabin... Expect distraction to be challenging your multi-tasking skills...

4) Some really interesting things we get out of this discussion...

• full power with a large amount of nose up trim... is going to generate a strong nose up attitude.  Stronger than some arms....
• apply down trim quickly...
• manual trim is probably faster than electric trim....
• full power is not really needed, unless the trees are growing large in the windshield.... 
• Modulate the power (bring it back enough) to keep the required control....
• This is important knowledge to have, if your trim runs away, or gets stuck... a great Lesson we learned from MS’s Amelia and Marvin K. Mooney...

5) full up trim for taxiing..? is an interesting idea, that may be left over from another plane..?  Our Cg is so far forward of our MLG... if it makes a difference, it will be measured in a few pounds taken off the nose wheel... unless you taxi at 58mias.... taxiing on a soft field... we need more than trim to lighten the nose... that is the time to hold the yoke back... (checks your arm strength here too)

 

It took me a while to learn how much excess power a Mooney has... even when it has 180hp... when you carry 310hp, modulating power is a really good idea... modulating pressure on the trim switches is also another good idea... you never knew how strong your left thumb can be.... possibly stronger than that aging, hard to find, BK trim switch set up...

Try to picture holding about 30lbs of force with your left arm (a strong, arm force), while gently pressing the trim switch with your left thumb to engage both halves... then verify the trim wheel is moving... (by feel, not visually!)

Trimming the plane quickly near the ground takes maximum multi-tasking skill... Eyes out, Fly the plane!  

PP thoughts only, not a CFI....

Best regards,

-a-

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, Niko182 said:

For runup, I use CIGARSCE. The 2 last being CB's and Emergency gear latch (learned that one the hard way. Took of and couldn't figure out the gear didn't go up)

Then when lining up, I do
-LIGHTS
-CAMERA (Mixture)
-ATTITUDE
-ACTION
 

So far, thats worked great for me.

CB's?  what's that?  Your Cheap Bastard check? 

Circuit breakers?  I figured most people had that on their startup checklist?

[steingar]

15 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I owned a J bar Mooney for 19 years. You should never rush to put the gear up. Why do you think it is hard on the engine? Early Mooneys were tremendously over cooled. Do you have cooling issues? I will admit that the view out the window is pretty crappy. I never had any problem retracting the gear at normal climb speeds.

Different strokes for different folks.  I'm of sufficiently diminutive stature than I haven't that much force on the bar.  I wait until 100 mph (climb out speed according to my POH) the bar forces become difficult to manage.  So you're Popeye and you eat your spinach, more power to you.  Us humans gotta do what we gotta do.