jerrodmonaghan Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 I have a question that may get me thrown off of the site but WTH.... I have a vintage 1976 M20F as the title identifies. It’s a 2200TT, 20 SMOH, tank re-seal done Dec 2018, shock disks Dec 2018, everything mechanically on the plane works great but the panel is as original as it was the day it left the factory, as is the paint and interior. Considering it’s age it’s still in surprisingly decent condition but it’s time to put serious money into it or let the next person enjoy it and move to my next Mooney. Let’s just pretend I am in a financial position to spare no expense when it comes to a panel, paint, and interior... just humor me. If I attempted to recreate a new 2019 Mooney Ultra Panel, paint, and interior into my 1976... what’s it cost vs. what it’s worth? Obviously this is the extreme but where does it make sense? If I budget $35k-$50k for a panel, $20k Paint, $17.5k interior can my F be worth $120k? $100k? $80k? I’m happy to invest it and keep mine if it’s not throwing good money Thanks Jerrod Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 Jerrod, You have picked the question that has no answer... to fit everyone... You have a beautiful plane... a blank canvas... You may want to decide if this is your forever plane first... Then go visit pics by @Marauder! Use caution... Marauder has a lot of big pics. You need to supply some information about yourself... unless you just want to just copy the 100+amu panel of the Ultra... the 100+amu panel is worth... 100amu... like your existing plane... somebody spent a ton of dough on that... it is fully worn in by now... the value is always going to be decreasing... unless we get ridiculous inflation like the 70s... remember that? If you start with a list like... I’m an IFR pilot... got 1k hour experience... My Typical flight is 200nm I prefer to fly over the Rockies Speed is more important than efficiency. I am looking forward to getting new cylinders at the 1khr mark... or... I’m a weekend flyer I’m thinking about getting my IR I like to fly to the beach on weekends My kids are about to go to college holy crap, 2020 is coming... We enjoy spending OPM. Just give us a hint at what this panel needs to do. We have a few that you can visit...by stopping in the galleries... Even M20Cs get Aspens around here to support the IR habit... Get to your forever plane first... then spend money on the panel to last 20years... it’s not the value of the hull that is important. It is the value of the lives inside the hull... if you fly in the system... have the equipment that supports your flying mission. Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_H Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 This looks like a conversation pointing to a J or a K to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_H Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 (edited) Others can post what panel upgrades can bring back to you... but it's highly unlikely that you will get a 1 to 1 investment return on avionics upgrades. You would likely need to fly the invested value out of the plane to feel good about the purchase. IMHO there isn't anything wrong with the panel you have. If you're tired of it... let it go for a reasonable price and enjoy being part of it going to a owner that would enjoy it. Edited February 12, 2019 by David_H Grammar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 This looks like a conversation pointing to a J or a K to me. Agreed, if worried about resale value, I would go to J or K if turbo is required. If it’s going to be your forever plane, then does that matter? My rough estimates for avionics: $50000+, paint and interior $25000. Many will suggest buying the plane with everything you want. Problem is there’s none for sale, because owners with forever planes keep them forever! Tom 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danb Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 Being totally subjective, one needs to find a plane similar to what you want in yours, then get real quotes to achieve the makeover. I’d then inquire the cost of acquiring your dream plane, the time to conversion should be taken into consideration, then go shopping either with the broker or specialty shops to do your conversion. Ive twice made the decision to upgrade, I went new both times, taking time as a major factor. When I look at planes like Bob’s awesome E or Chris’s sweet panel in an F or Dons great panel in his M, I don’t think there is a bad choice just one that meets what the driver wants and is willing to pay for. The cool thing about MS and many events we go to is the wide variety of great Mooneys within our group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 I think the realistic max value for an F is capped by the lower range price of a J. Somewhere around $75K. People want to apply their maintenance costs to the selling price. Don't think it works like that. You could also throw some speed mods on it. J windshield being one of the top picks. Hit the paint with a buffer and wax and it will shine up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 (edited) You don’t need $50k for a panel. A gtn 650 and gtx 345 will make you modern ads-b and lpv approach ready for mid $20k’s. You’ll be able to do the same stuff we do in the g1000 -Robert Edited February 12, 2019 by RobertGary1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 A spare no expenses F model I think would break 100k. My guess is that’s limited by a early J maximum value of ~125k 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
67 m20F chump Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 Your doing the math that must never be done. If you like your plane and you want to use the avionics and would like new P&I do it. You know you will never get the money back. I agree that the price of a m20f will always be limited by the price of a M20J. The price of a M20J is limited by the big bore Mooney prices. When the price gets over 75k you start adding other brands into the mix. If I were looking at spending more than 75k for a 145kt aircraft I would also be looking at Beechcraft. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964-M20E Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 Well I'm not sure what you bought the plane for but if you spend $75k on the upgrades you are talking about you would have a $90k plane +/-. JMHO However, if you plan on keeping the plane for at least 5 years then do it if you keep the plane 10 years you are ahead of the game at that point. You will get to enjoy the plane configured the way you want it and the good looks to go along with it for that time. You will have to fly the value of your upgrades to make it worth while. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_H Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 1 minute ago, 1964-M20E said: if you keep the plane 10 years you are ahead of the game at that point Maybe. Predicting potential value of equipment that far out seems rather risky given the current environment. Nobody knows what avionics we'll see in 10 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964-M20E Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 14 minutes ago, David_H said: Maybe. Predicting potential value of equipment that far out seems rather risky given the current environment. Nobody knows what avionics we'll see in 10 years. True but you get to enjoy what you have installed during that time. You will never have the latest and greatest because something new is always coming out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 9 hours ago, jerrodmonaghan said: I’m happy to invest it and keep mine if it’s not throwing good money It was all good until you made that last statement... in this game, you're always throwing good money... the only solution to that is to fly it enough that you just don't care and that statement fades away... @Marauder is at something like 152 years on his F and still trying to fly the value out of it. If it's truly your forever plane, then spend and upgrade it, fly it as much as you can, and then let your heirs worry about the valuation, @Bob_Belville. On the other hand, if you want to recreate a new Mooney, but starting with a vintage platform, the late model J's and the K 252/Encore is where you want to be. I disagree that the value of a J is limited by the cost of the big bore Mooneys. I believe a J in 10/10 condition with a new modern panel ($100K) would easily fetch over $200K. And the same goes for a 252K. It's widely agreed that the J and the 252K are the pinnacle of Mooney's speed/efficiency quest. And either of those brought back to "New/Modern" condition will be valuable. This was my thinking behind the sale of my C and purchase of the 252. I have intentions of bringing 252AD back to that "New/Modern" condition eventually. If it was available, I'd truly rather have a brand new 252 Encore than an Ultra. But since Mooney won't build one, I'll have to do it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 15 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said: You will never have the latest and greatest because something new is always coming out. Tell that to @donkaye 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooneyPoor Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 Simple way it seems to me would be to VREF it in it's current condition and post upgrades keeping in mind it's not accurate on either side but would provide a ballpark. Values for nicely equipped planes are on the rise from what I've watched over the past 24 months and the demand (lack of inventory) might just be a reason. It's your plane and your investment...with 20SMOH you have time to focus on the panel/paint/interior it seems to me while still putting away $16-17/flt hour for overhaul. Just the new guys opinion.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, MooneyPoor said: Simple way it seems to me would be to VREF it in it's current condition and post upgrades keeping in mind it's not accurate on either side but would provide a ballpark. Values for nicely equipped planes are on the rise from what I've watched over the past 24 months and the demand (lack of inventory) might just be a reason. It's your plane and your investment...with 20SMOH you have time to focus on the panel/paint/interior it seems to me while still putting away $16-17/flt hour for overhaul. Just the new guys opinion.. Well said... except throw VREF out the window and get an actually useful buying guide from @jgarrison. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooneyPoor Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 1 minute ago, gsxrpilot said: Well said... except throw VREF out the window and get an actually useful buying guide from @jgarrison. YES! I should have threw that in there for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerrodmonaghan Posted February 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 All excellent answers! I have approximately 20 hours in the plane (all of them SMOH). I did everything wrong you can do when it comes to buying a plane. It started with buying a plane having never flown a plane in my life and the plane had sat in a hangar for 12 years without seeing the light of day... fast forward 4 years of ownership, hurricane harvey, and closing in on my PPL check ride... I’ve asked this question. I have a very supportive wife who simply asked me if the plane is worth investing our money into. When I stuttered she gave me the look. I own multiple businesses in multiple states hence my quest to own a plane but the business man in me wants to know how “fiscally irresponsible” I’m being. I have owned 8 motorcycle dealerships so I am numb to falling in love with metal( or so I thought) I enjoy vehicles that I own and take excellent care of them but I can sell a vehicle in a blink and never think again about it. BUT the Mooney has me wrapped around its finger! You never forget your first! I was in the USAF and when I was stationed at Edwards AFB a NASA pilot commuted in a Mooney from San Diego. I thought it was the sexiest thing with wings and that was my thought after I saw the top secret F22 that was 2 hangars away! Lol Sorry all my pictures did not attach last night.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 9 hours ago, jerrodmonaghan said: I have a question that may get me thrown off of the site but WTH.... I have a vintage 1976 M20F as the title identifies. It’s a 2200TT, 20 SMOH, tank re-seal done Dec 2018, shock disks Dec 2018, everything mechanically on the plane works great but the panel is as original as it was the day it left the factory, as is the paint and interior. Considering it’s age it’s still in surprisingly decent condition but it’s time to put serious money into it or let the next person enjoy it and move to my next Mooney. Let’s just pretend I am in a financial position to spare no expense when it comes to a panel, paint, and interior... just humor me. If I attempted to recreate a new 2019 Mooney Ultra Panel, paint, and interior into my 1976... what’s it cost vs. what it’s worth? Obviously this is the extreme but where does it make sense? If I budget $35k-$50k for a panel, $20k Paint, $17.5k interior can my F be worth $120k? $100k? $80k? I’m happy to invest it and keep mine if it’s not throwing good money Thanks Jerrod Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Jerrod, Look familiar? My recommendation is invest only if you plan on hanging on the plane for a while. We have been seeing some price movements upwards. Tom's E which is nicely equipped sold for over $100k. The true value will be what someone will be willing to pay for the plane. An F can be sold for more than a J but there is a huge DEPENDS. There a ton of early model Js that are bare bones and haven't been upgraded like Brad's and Byrons'. An upgraded F can sell for more than a J but you will need to wait for a buyer who understands the value of what you upgraded. Since my plane is fairly visible, I have been approached several times and offered reasonable offers for my plane. So I know there are buyers out there. A late model F like yours and mine are great platforms for upgrades. There are a lot of overlaps with early Js and our speeds are close and in some cases faster than early Js. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerrodmonaghan Posted February 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 Maybe I am biased considering I raced for Suzuki for years:-) but GSXRPilot’s answer is hitting close to home. I am fine spending $75k-$150k if the platform will support the investment. I also wanted to know what MS folks considered the best foundation to start with as compared to the new 2019 Model. Thanks GSXRPilot and all your responses. Much appreciated.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 The later model Fs were the test beds for the Js. Just continue the Factory tradition. You get exactly what you want. Price for speed the F seems to be at the sweet spot. An F will go almost as fast as a J for about half the cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerrodmonaghan Posted February 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 Maurader, thanks for the perfect example! This is why Mooneyspace is such a valuable tool. Just knowing that there are a lot of other people who are lying to their spouses about how much they spend and how much their plane is worth makes me feel so much better!!! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 You don’t need $50k for a panel. A gtn 650 and gtx 345 will make you modern ads-b and lpv approach ready for mid $20k’s. You’ll be able to do the same stuff we do in the g1000 -Robert If it’s about have minimum to meet your needs, yes.But I didn’t take his comments as a minimalist.Add a Certified engine monitor- $9000Digital 2nd nav/com - $5000HSI (dual G5s) - $8000Panel mounted Aera as you MFD -$1000I would add a GFC 500 when it becomes available $12000.That’s ONLY $60,000. Now you have something you can post every time someone mentions a panel upgrade like a few others do...not mentioning names, but they fly a C, F, and 252. Tom 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLRDMD Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 50 minutes ago, jerrodmonaghan said: Maybe I am biased considering I raced for Suzuki for years:-) but GSXRPilot’s answer is hitting close to home. I am fine spending $75k-$150k if the platform will support the investment. First, get over the notion that it is an investment. It isn't. It is an expense. 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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