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Realistic Maximum Value for 1976 M20F


jerrodmonaghan

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I started with a shell.  Mine is a 1968 F bought in disassembled condition and not airworthy at the time.  No corrosion and no damage Hx.  I had to make it airworthy from its location in Dallas, TX. (Doing work from a distance is hard and was a problem).  This is not a problem for you as you have an airworthy plane which you can fly to be best people to perform the work.   My plane was restored using J model and Ovation parts.  It is insured at a price equal to most long body Mooneys.  It looks like an MSE and has the upgraded gear, (J bar and hydraulic flaps).<_<  

There are pictures on my profile.

You can take an older plane to whatever level you would like.   I like the efficiency and simpler maintenance of the F model.  160kts at 10,000 ft and 175 kts at 17500 ft., ROP burning 11 gph.

Yes it is turbo normalized.

It is valued by appraisers at what it is, which is no longer an F.  It was a winner in the "Vintage" class at Oshkosh, but is truely a modern plane.  

Be sure that the airframe is worthy, then plan what you want, find reliable and honest people to do the work, work with them so you will learn about the airframe and equipment.

If it is to be a forever plane, then the money doesn't matter as long as you manage the project well so you get your value out of the plane is usage.

John Breda

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30 minutes ago, jerrodmonaghan said:

Maurader, thanks for the perfect example!

This is why Mooneyspace is such a valuable tool. Just knowing that there are a lot of other people who are lying to their spouses about how much they spend and how much their plane is worth makes me feel so much better!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Approach it from a safety perspective. Works every time. My Lynx 9000+ was a great example. Flew down to Ocean City Maryland. On the way back I'm climbing  and my wife sees a low wing plane directly above us. I didn't see him with my portable ADS-B solution. I arrest the climb and make a turn. Congratulated her for her keen awareness. Of course, she doesn't want that responsibility and she says "Isn't there something you could put in the plane that will let you see them?" Bingo, Lynx on the way. :D

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I started with a good airframe, and rebuilt as I went, installed a 430W, intercom, transponder, JPI 700 and FS450, and stec 30 with altitude and GPSS.  Eventually did the tanks, speed mods, paint, and took out a decent interior and installed leather.  Installed ADSB in and out. Unfortunately, it became time to retire and decided to sell the plane. I did not get my money out of it, I enjoyed the plane, some of the depreciation was the additional 500+ hours that I put on the plane. 

I would do it again, if I was able.   It is your choice and your money.  Safety and reliability are a must.

Let us know what you do, and please post pictures.

Ron

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I feel a need to repeat an observation I've made here previously... an aircraft owner will be much happier about the money she spends adding capabilities to the mistress if he thinks in terms of other transportation choices, e.g. his spouse's nice car instead of thinking of it as a mutual fund. We accept that a car will not be worth what it costs when it's time to sell or trade. We justify that loss in value in exchange for the convenience, comfort, and perhaps the pleasure of driving ourselves where and when we want to go. My plane does all those nice things for me even better than a German sedan. 

If my objective is return on investment I'll buy a few more shares of AAPL and live out my miserable existence on the ground or the middle seat of an Airbus.      

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As many mentioned it's not an investment in most cases, those day's left at the turn of the century, a lot of us may a drive Ford Focus, VW, Porsche, Escalade and so on, sure they get us to our destination, many are mission conscience some not so. Since we're flying Mooney's we are all in a wonderful place. If your so inclined add up every dollar spent since you started flying from that first discovery flight right up to that new G-600 and 750. It's just money folks, I provided my child with a quality education I'm done counting pennies, dollar's etc.

Lest have fun and enjoy. This thread is so much better that evaluation of fatal accident's

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For myself I would consider first that the airframe, glass, engine are all good (and I believe yours is) then it really depends on what type of weather you are looking to fly in.  If it's IFR then get the equipment you personally feel would reduce your work load when flying.  For me when the weather was too much (like winter time) and possible icing, I just took the airlines otherwise I would fly.  For an airplane I would consider lastly return on investment.  It's first what reasonable equipment I feel would make flying safer for me when IFR (or VFR as well).  Thanks.

Edited by DaveW
spelling.
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3 hours ago, jerrodmonaghan said:

I have a very supportive wife who simply asked me if the plane is worth investing our money into. . . . the business man in me wants to know how “fiscally irresponsible” I’m being.

You've got to slap that businessman into subjection! Talk to your wife about safety, traveling convenience and comfort, and take her places that she wants to go. Then you can go some places that you want to go. See @Marauder's experience for getting your wife to suggest upgrades! Please ignore the actual numbers, just make sure you can foot the bills when they come due. My wife knows what I paid for the plane, and what one [pricey] annual cost [sort of cost, there were some unexpected failures that year].

All I really track are operating expenses--insurance, GPS databases, fuel and oil [which I change myself, what I call "the costs to fly]". Everything else is the cost to be able to fly. Only ever discuss the former set of numbers with your wife . . . . and try hard to forget the second set yourself.  ;)

Have fun, and make your plane whatever you want it to be. How much payback did you get on your motorcycle for those extra-large saddlebags, or chromed crash bars / master cylinder cover anyway?

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Great responses so far. I've owned my early J for 12 years now and have been steadily improving her, even though the last owner poured a lot of money into upgrades that made it a great deal for me. I of course dream about moving up, but honestly to do "better" than my wonderful J would require 2x in purchase price and operating cost, so this might end up being my forever plane... I have a TN kit and later model J seats to add one of these years too, so mine should exceed a 252 in efficiency and that will be perfect for me.

I bargain-shop and DIY as much as possible to minimize my costs. I like working on the plane too, so it is fun/hobby activity while improving her (under licensed supervision). I know despite that any upgrades won't return 100% of my costs, even counting my labor as free. Latest purchase is a used WX-500 stormscope that I'll install as much as possible myself and let a shop do the finish work to reduce the cost. I hate paying $100/hr to remove interior and route wires!

Your F could be a forever plane, so upgrading is perfectly rational so long as the airframe is solid and corrosion-free. You can add J speed mods, Sabrecowl, etc and re-paint to your tastes. You can DIY an interior upgrade if you're so inclined and work with a local car upholstery shop instead of taking her somewhere, tossing the keys and leaving $10k behind.

With any luck later this year we'll have much cheaper panel upgrade options, as well as autopilot. I'd save those for last and concentrate on getting mechanical stuff tip-top, and adding a primary engine monitor.

There have been a couple super-upgraded E models go for over $100K, but certainly the owners did NOT recoup all of their "investments" even at that price. Marauder has probably gotten offers over 100 as well. So if you do it right, you can get decent money back, but not all. It's far better to just make what YOU want, fly the heck out of it and enjoy life. And never ever add up all of the costs!!!

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

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I bought a 1978J.  I had the same dilemma knowing that the return on investment didn’t exist from a business perspective.  I do feel that with a solid J airframe you can make the economics work a little better. If your heart is attached to the F then that’s where I would stay for sure.  This is a hobby and we need to feel good about our decisions.  I spent close to 50k on this panel and will probably only see 30k in improved value.  I pulled all of the plastic and redid it myself as well.  Who knows though, value is very subjective and it takes a lot of time to get these projects done.  Some folks would pay for not having the inconvenience and down time if they really like what you’ve done. I love flying, working on the plane, and learning everything I can about it.  It’s all a ton of fun!! Almost illegal how much fun aviation is.  If there is a knot in your stomach about upgrading the F then you might need to make a change. Jimmy Garrison may could help too like another MS member mentioned above.

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I don't think my F could be replaced for less than $80k, but the market is probably niche'.  That's why I have it insured for $85k.   Many people who have their "forever F"  like Maurader have pimped them out and wouldn't ever let it go for less than 100..  F's that generally come on the market seem to usually be largely legacy with rare exceptions.  So, it seems to me that many people see the typical Fs that are listed for sale and they just look at the high and low asking prices and figure that's the range.    The real upper range of a very nice F is pushing $100k and in some cases much more IMHO.   People always say that F's top out at $75k, but it seems to me that nice, well equipped and modded high dollar Fs always sell way quicker (immediate), but they only come around once or twice per year and get snatched up.  I'm talking modern glass, windshield, cowl, interior, paint, nice all around.     There are many future buyers that see things like this, who might end up having to buy again after a total loss.  If I lost mine to insurance, I wouldn't have any problem spending $80-100k on a top tier F, when that much money only gets you a tired J with mostly legacy stuff and less UL.    just my 2cents.. 

Edited by Browncbr1
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1 hour ago, INA201 said:

I bought a 1978J.  I had the same dilemma knowing that the return on investment didn’t exist from a business perspective.  I do feel that with a solid J airframe you can make the economics work a little better. If your heart is attached to the F then that’s where I would stay for sure.  This is a hobby and we need to feel good about our decisions.  I spent close to 50k on this panel and will probably only see 30k in improved value.  I pulled all of the plastic and redid it myself as well.  Who knows though, value is very subjective and it takes a lot of time to get these projects done.  Some folks would pay for not having the inconvenience and down time if they really like what you’ve done. I love flying, working on the plane, and learning everything I can about it.  It’s all a ton of fun!! Almost illegal how much fun aviation is.  If there is a knot in your stomach about upgrading the F then you might need to make a change. Jimmy Garrison may could help too like another MS member mentioned above.

D6782FAB-E152-4152-8131-B4DA96F93E85.jpeg

3BB86B86-5875-4FBA-9DA2-95B01255BDCF.jpeg

25928098-A09B-4C35-869B-FEB9FD7D6385.jpeg

Looks like you need to spend some more money! You're not done!

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So I’m going against the MS general consensus, important if I want to stay at the top of everyone’s ignore list. First finish your PPL and put a hundred hours on the old girl. You might find a few systems that need to be repaired after sitting dormant for over a decade.  Then decide if you really like feel, UL, short/soft field ability, etc. If you like what you see get some quotes and start comparing it to other aircraft in the same price bracket. IMO talking about picking up a 252 et al before you get some seat time is a mistake. 

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9 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Of all the things we spend money on:
Fuel
Hangar
Insurance (hopefully)
Maintenance (not counting improvements)
New avionics

Only new avionics increases the value of our plane.


Tom

As do engines. New paint. New interior. 

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12 hours ago, jerrodmonaghan said:

...multiple businesses in multiple states hence my quest to own a plane...    

 

 

Jerrod,

The critical thing you should have mentioned early on.... you have had the same plan for years and are slowly executing it the hard and expensive way...

When prompted with the question, what type of flying you do.... did you answer?

 

  • you are talking about a machine that is going to be used for business purposes... 
  • Top level usability is everything...
  • Dispatch rate are the key words...
  • IFR capability is the next set of key words...
  • The most important key words are training, experience and maintenance...

 

Now we can get past the maximum value discussion... that is just a driver for bad decisions... these are small dollars compared to the whole ownership experience...

Lets talk ecconomics of being on site when you can be there tomorrow... vs. driving or flying commercial...

That only comes after a whole bunch of methodology discussions.  What is the best method to fly to the various sites...

I applaud you for jumping in with Mooney ownership... it takes staying focused to get the value out of it...


The bottom line... you have to live through the experience. Call me a bit concerned... :)

Allay my fears...?

What’s your flight experience, briefly?

Some MSers use there plane to fly between offices, or other types of business locations... Some get used for the weekly commute...

Ken uses his plane frequently for this type of travel... 

You are not alone... At MS you are never alone.... :)

Private pilot thoughts only, not a CFI....

Best regards,

-a-

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11 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

First, get over the notion that it is an investment. It isn't. It is an expense.

Exactly!

Or, to put it less diplomatically: As aircraft owners we are, nearly by definition, fiscally irresponsible:D

The only question is, “Can you afford it?”

Edited by MikeOH
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10 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Exactly! Or, to put it less diplomatically: As aircraft owners we are, nearly by definition, fiscally irresponsible:D The only question is, “Can you afford it?”

Not really. Can you afford it is important but equally important is do you want to afford it ? I *can* afford a SETP but I don't want the expense.

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